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Thread: Minimalist 1.4.1 and T3EnhancED Thread

  1. #76
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Hmmm, nope. Theoretically, you shouldn't have to worry about that. T3EnhancED doesn't come with any of the original missions anyway. I dropped them since they would pretty much be unplayable with the changes made to the gamesys and also because people 'could' reassemble them with all the content included and no longer have to buy the game....but it would be a LOT of work on their part to manually make all the original missions T3EnhnacEd compatible.

  2. #77
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    I still haven't installed it, obviously. Thief 3 isn't installed either.

    So - to make things clear - I install TDS, patch it and then run the T3EnhancED installer?

  3. #78
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect
    I still haven't installed it, obviously. Thief 3 isn't installed either.

    So - to make things clear - I install TDS, patch it and then run the T3EnhancED installer?
    I believe you can install the editor without installing the actual game. It should run independently. Ion included all the game executables with the editor, they just didn't include all the sounds. If they had, people would have been able to reconstruct the unr files and play the full game without buying.

    That's why I removed the .unr files when I included all the extracted sound content. The only reason you need to install TDS with the editor is to test it in a separate game install. As I said before though, the original missions won't work properly with T3EnhancED anyway. I just removed them for legal reasons.

    I still have to get a patch out to make the game install of TDS T3EnhancED ready. Give me a week or two for that.

  4. #79
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    Well I'm dling it now (longest, but not biggest, DL ever) and my mission will be totally converted for it. I might have to go through the tutorial again just so I can see what kind of extras I can put in. Distribtued Enhanced FMS will only be playable with the patch, yes? And people only need TDS and the patch to play, correct?

    I get confused

  5. #80
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect
    Well I'm dling it now (longest, but not biggest, DL ever) and my mission will be totally converted for it. I might have to go through the tutorial again just so I can see what kind of extras I can put in. Distribtued Enhanced FMS will only be playable with the patch, yes? And people only need TDS and the patch to play, correct?

    I get confused
    Yup, they just need TDS and the patch.

  6. #81

    Nice. I just finished the game, enjoyed it more than ThiefTDP itself. So yeah, I have some experience with UnrealEd (DeusEx, UT2k4, SWAT4), so I am now downloading EnhanceED to work on.

    BTW, how big will the patch be to make mods made on this Ed playable by others? Also, are there going to be some 'other' fixes related to gameplay or just changes to make EeD maps compatible with T3 ?

    Another thing. Though I like the changes mentioned (edible foods is a welcome one since I missed TTDP like option of healing without potions), can you please explain what exactly are the "Wall hug bug" and "Player Movement" fixes for? I dunno, I never experienced any problems with both when I played the game

    Anyways, good job with it, downloading the installer now.

  7. #82
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    Wall hug bug = guards will not notice you even if they bump into you whilst you are wallhugging or something.

    Movement fixes are to make it more like T1 and 2 I think.

  8. #83
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Yeah, the wall hugging bug was an error in the game code. It caused the lightgem to drop off into negative numbers when the player went into wall hug mode in rooms with little light. Basically, to compensate for this, I just made the bonus for wall hugging less than what it was set in the gamesys. Basically, it was set to give the player the same bonus as they would get from crouching, but with the bug...it was like 10 times that. I believe I had to drop it from -1.0, to -0.05 to reach the correct calculation. Crazy stuff.

    The movement tweaks compensate for the sluggishness of player movement in T3. The Garrett animations are pretty off kilter, so when you walk there is a bit of a limp or something.

    The patch. I'm not sure what the final size will be, but it won't be small if my initial tests are any indication. It's a binary patching system that compares all the updated files with their original versions and then extracts the difference to make the patch. I did a test with the sound files and it was 200 megs, so I'm guessing that when I get the gamesys files in there, it will be around 250 megs.

  9. #84

    WOW, 200 MB is way too big for a patch just to play mods. Any way to extract sound files inside users directory instead of distributing them during installation?

  10. #85
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by desmasic
    WOW, 200 MB is way too big for a patch just to play mods. Any way to extract sound files inside users directory instead of distributing them during installation?
    Why would this be too big for a one time download? Look at it this way, it's either download a 200 meg patch once, or have to download huge amounts of custom content for every single Enhanced fan mission. It also saves people from having to download a 750 meg editor to play them. If missions are built with the enhanced editor, then people will download the patch.

    The idea is to make the update as painless as possible. From weighing all the options, this is the best way...and the least problematic. People can download the patch, run it, and voila...all the work is done for them with a 5 minute patch session. So they have to wait an hour or two for a file to download, at least it saves them hours of extracting all the schemametafiles, creating dummy wav files for the recompilation and then actually recompiling them. It's a little extra bandwidth, for a whole lot of convenience.

  11. #86
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2005
    Location: He's behiiiind yoooou!
    You have you admit that the bandwidth cost is prohibitive for a single mission, especially for dial-up users. Once there are hundreds of missions using T3EnhancEd it becomes slightly less of a problem (people will be more willing to download it), but it will still be a high barrier to entry for some people - and it won't even reduce the size of the mission downloads. So now they don't have to download ~30 MB for a single mission or ~60 MB for two (which is bad enough) - they have to download ~230 MB for a single mission, or ~260 MB for two. Yuck.

    Yes, it's better than having to download that 200 MB with every single mission, but it's definitely NOT better (in pure cost terms) than having to download a non-EnhancEd mission.

    Keep in mind that bandwidth has a hefty price tag attached, not just a waiting period. When I had dial-up, I would definitely have preferred a five-hour install to a two-hour download; the cost of the download and the inconvenience of tying up the phone line were simply too much, but the install could be left to complete overnight.

    I certainly don't mean to disparage your efforts at all - I'm just pointing out that the bandwidth problem is a large one.

  12. #87
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    Yes Crispy, but I think dial-up users would be better of getting it on a magazine CD/DVD or from one of the people who sends such CDs.

    Even a couple of years ago I would have though "Woah, that is some crazy DLing that needs doing just ot play an FM". Then I would have done it at work

    I'm going to set up a poll to find out who has BB and who not.

  13. #88
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy
    You have you admit that the bandwidth cost is prohibitive for a single mission, especially for dial-up users. Once there are hundreds of missions using T3EnhancEd it becomes slightly less of a problem (people will be more willing to download it), but it will still be a high barrier to entry for some people - and it won't even reduce the size of the mission downloads. So now they don't have to download ~30 MB for a single mission or ~60 MB for two (which is bad enough) - they have to download ~230 MB for a single mission, or ~260 MB for two. Yuck.

    Yes, it's better than having to download that 200 MB with every single mission, but it's definitely NOT better (in pure cost terms) than having to download a non-EnhancEd mission.

    Keep in mind that bandwidth has a hefty price tag attached, not just a waiting period. When I had dial-up, I would definitely have preferred a five-hour install to a two-hour download; the cost of the download and the inconvenience of tying up the phone line were simply too much, but the install could be left to complete overnight.

    I certainly don't mean to disparage your efforts at all - I'm just pointing out that the bandwidth problem is a large one.
    My point though, is that it's a 'one time' download. You don't have to download the base install again. If people had to download a completely new package for 'every' mission, I would see their issue, but that's not the case.

    Look at it this way.

    I 'could' provide a smaller package, with instructions and let them spend two or three hours working through the update on their own....with 'no' guarantee that it will work when they're done....OR, they can patiently sit on their asses for a few hours while it's downloaded onto their computer, and then comfortably watch a self installing patch take all the hassle out of their hands.

    I just don't see what people are complaining about. One way or the other, they're going to 'wait' for this thing. The only difference is...are they going get stuck with the work, or will I have done it for them? I would prefer to do it for them, but if people are going to get bent out of shape because they have to ....'oh my god'...wait, then I'm going to be a little annoyed. If it's a long download...go for a walk, if you're on dialup...request to have a CD sent to you from me or someone who has it.

  14. #89
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    According to this poll I initiated over in Thief FMs I don't think it's really a big issue.

  15. #90
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Norman, OK
    New Horizon, don't be annoyed. I for one, and I know MANY others, are very grateful to you for your hard work in bringing us this fantastic tool. I will also be very glad when it comes time to play the first T3EnhancEd Fan Mission, and all I have to do it click "Install"... While I am perfectly comfortable messing around with the innards of my hard drive contents, I dislike spending large amounts of time trying to get something installed, etc.

    So, A Big Thanks to you, NH, for the amazing things you have done to enhance the T3 editing/playing experience.

  16. #91
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2005
    Location: He's behiiiind yoooou!
    Quote Originally Posted by New Horizon
    I would prefer to do it for them, but if people are going to get bent out of shape because they have to ....'oh my god'...wait, then I'm going to be a little annoyed. If it's a long download...go for a walk, if you're on dialup...request to have a CD sent to you from me or someone who has it.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that any of this is your fault - I think the solution you've come up with is the best one possible under the circumstances. And I certainly didn't mean to annoy you.

    Just pointing out that it could be a bigger problem for some people than you were making out... but I guess even most Thief players have broadband these days, so my fears are perhaps somewhat ungrounded.

  17. #92
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy
    Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that any of this is your fault - I think the solution you've come up with is the best one possible under the circumstances. And I certainly didn't mean to annoy you.

    Just pointing out that it could be a bigger problem for some people than you were making out... but I guess even most Thief players have broadband these days, so my fears are perhaps somewhat ungrounded.
    No worries, I wasn't annoyed by you. I just meant that I 'would' be annoyed in the future if I came in here and saw a bunch of complaining about having to download a large patch, when all it requires them to do...is patiently wait.

  18. #93
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    I'm sure I'm being dumb but I've run the demo mission (I like the ambient at the start and the old style hud actually) but I'm having some trouble with it.

    I can convert water arrows to holy water arrows with the fountain but the flasks don't seem to do anything. Neither does the oil flask. I also cannot open one of the chests or the locked door opposite to where you enter. In fact it might be an issue with not knowing how to use the keys and the picks.

    I've also found, I think, that holy water arrows put out flames but not the light source itself.

  19. #94
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    hmmm, that doesn't sound right. Holy water flasks should be working, I'll double check...but as long as you have regular water arrows left in your inventory, you should be fine. Lockpicks and keys have to be selected from inventory and while selected, hit the use button. For me, that's the middle mouse key.

    I'll look into these issues and post back.

  20. #95
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Just tested it all out SE, everything's working fine on this end. Light sources are properly extinguished with holy water arrows, all flasks work, lockpicks and keys work. I've installed and uninstalled T3EnhancED numerous times over the course of testing, so its pretty much gone through the paces.

    I wonder what's going on...

  21. #96
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect
    I've also found, I think, that holy water arrows put out flames but not the light source itself.

    I've continuously had this problem with plain old Vanilla TDS installs. Its some sort of Graphical glitch as far as I can tell. Restarting the game usually solves it. I know updating my Radeon Graphics driver solves it (and a few other odd graphical issues) too, but when I do so my older T1 and T2 installs don't run properly so I am intentionally using an older ATI driver. I have experienced the fire going out, but not the lamp as well as textures that should be dark but appear fullbright in game. As I said a driver update fixed these problems. I doublt it has anything to do with T3EnhancED in particular.

  22. #97
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    Well that's a little confusing seeing as vanilla TDS had no holy water arrows. I'm talking holy water arrows.

    Are you talking about water arrows or about using the holy water vials to put out flames?

  23. #98
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect
    Well that's a little confusing seeing as vanilla TDS had no holy water arrows. I'm talking holy water arrows.

    Are you talking about water arrows or about using the holy water vials to put out flames?
    I think he just means that he had the same trouble with standard water arrows. I'm not sure what would cause the problem with holy water arrows though, I copied the water arrow actor, made a duplicate of the stim but with a holy water stim attached. That's really the only difference between them. Hmmm.

  24. #99
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    Don't worry about it. Perhaps if I re-try it it'll be ok. I'm busy with other stuff atm though.

    No rope arrows in T3EnhancEd eh?

  25. #100
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect
    Don't worry about it. Perhaps if I re-try it it'll be ok. I'm busy with other stuff atm though.

    No rope arrows in T3EnhancEd eh?
    Nope, I appreciate all the work that has gone into rope arrows. Unfortunately due to the editor limitations, we may be stuck with a permanent work in progress. I only included things that I was able to impliment in full.

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