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Thread: Mapping out The City.

  1. #701
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    I'm still waiting for more feedback
    Sorry 'bout that. The trio of terror there threw me for a loop, then I had to go on an extended holiday this past weekend that's completely thrown me off my routine. Let me regroup, and then I'll hit these.

    By the by, this is stunning. You continue to impress.

    Quote Originally Posted by sysqc
    Doc_Brown's prophecy is catching up on me it seems.
    Muah-ha-ha-ha-haaaa...

    Quote Originally Posted by Solabusca
    Str8g8, we seem to be coming up against a wall once again with regards to Shalebridge and Newmarket.
    Looks like things are heating up here yet again...

  2. #702
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Str8g8, we seem to be coming up against a wall once again with regards to Shalebridge and Newmarket.
    Yes, it keeps coming up, doesn't it? I can only repeat what was discussed in this thread before - and it was discussed, quite a lot, probably more than any other single topic.

    The river the servants are discussing is the big River - if they were talking about the little tributory you actually see in Assassins then why are they so surprised to see it so low and why would NM be horrified ... you could just jump across anyway. It only makes sense in the context of a Big River.

    On the other hand, their comments don't dictate Shalebridge is directly bordering New Market, and in fact we have 2 good maps (the keeper map you posted and Garrett's hand-drawn Assassin map) which show New Market and Old Qaurter but make no mention of Shalebridge.

    So, it doesn't have to be directly across at all, just across. But it does have to be across the main river.

    In my map the relationship between New Market and Shalebridge is still there - if you were a beggar who walked across the River at Shalebridge, then New Market would be the first well-to-do area you would come across, and you wouldn't have far to go either.

    Also, I just don't see OQ as unwieldy ... it occupies quite a logical space within the elbow of the river. It seems quite tidy to me, especially, as I say, if we consider Downtowne and Stone Market districts to be part of the Old Quarter (as I've tried to indicate on the map with different font sizes and similar colours...)

    As always though the test of any theory is to put it into practice. If you can come up with a better arrangement then post it, and if we can make it fly then it will get assimilated.

    cheers
    str8g8

  3. #703
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Check it out. In the TDS Full City map, there's a cistern, lake or canal off to the left of OQ and north of Docks.

    Take a look at it this way - the Keeper Map seems to imply that the area it's looking at is pretty big, but what if it's TINY next to the bloody whole of the City?



    .j.

  4. #704
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    Also, I just don't see OQ as unwieldy ... it occupies quite a logical space within the elbow of the river. It seems quite tidy to me, especially, as I say, if we consider Downtowne and Stone Market districts to be part of the Old Quarter (as I've tried to indicate on the map with different font sizes and similar colours...)
    Take a look at some historical maps - city sections just don't sprawl and twist that way! Neighbourhoods tend to be bounded by wall (in medieval locales) or other geographical boundaries.

    Check it out -

    LONDON.
    http://www.britainshistory.com/downl...n_boroughs.jpg

    AMSTERDAM
    http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/...msterdam_m.gif

    NEW YORK
    http://nyctmc.org/images/fiveboroughs_4boroughs.gif

    PARIS
    http://www.parisbreak.co.uk/images/paris-plan.jpg

    PRAGUE
    http://www.ibs-sro.cz/images/Living_...f%20Prague.jpg

    VENICE
    http://www.umich.edu/~hartspc/histar...venicemap2.gif

    Some fantasy examples for you:

    SANCTUARY
    http://www.home.earthlink.net/~jcook16682/sanctuary.jpg

    LANKHMAR (if ever a city inspired the City, it was Lankhmar)
    http://www.worldofskell.com/POV%20Images/Lankhmar1.gif
    http://home.vicnet.net.au/~qbird/maps/gfdist2.gif

    str8g8 - I admire your talent, and think you've done an insane amount of work for the project, but if you look at these examples, you'll see that it's pretty clear that cities don't form like that. I think you're clinging to a theory you like in spite of the growing arguement against it, primarily because it's something you've been working so damn hard on - and again, you have my thanks for all the work you've put into this.

    You've invested a lot in your theories - and I appreciate that - but I still think that your current map isn't ringing quite true. I'm only trying to help. I've been interested in the outcome for a hell of a long time, you see.


    .j.

    [EDIT - Sweet mother-jumping Hades. I've been hard at work on this and another project all bloody night - and I've got to be awake in around three hours to get ready for the workday! AUUUUUUGH! Evil debator, to make me suffer so... and tonight is my Karaoke night, so sleep don't come soon enough!]
    Last edited by Solabusca; 8th Sep 2005 at 07:28.
    D Jeremy Brown - Black-hearted taffer, underworked editor and Karaoke War-god.

    Anything not nailed down is mine.
    Anything that can be pried loose is
    by definition not nailed down.

  5. #705
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    This is an abstract of the current Quarter boundaries.


    I just don't see what the problem is
    city sections just don't sprawl and twist that way! Neighbourhoods tend to be bounded by wall (in medieval locales) or other geographical boundaries.
    Well, Old Quarter is bound by the river to the North and East, the Docks to the South, and the area of highground occupied by Hightown to the West!

    BTW, I hope I'm not too attached to any theory ... the current map is the result of quite a few people's opinions not just my own. The last change I made was very recent and far-reaching (moving the Ambush map down near the Docks) and came out of sysqc's suggestions.

    I'm just using the best current thoeory. If you come up with a better one I'll use that instead. Simple as that.

    But thankyou for posting your ideas in visual form, that is always the first step and we can finally get to the meat of it. Right off I can see you forgot the Assassin map:

    Now, I'm not a fan of this particular map, it coincides and contradicts the Keeper map in all sorts of annoying and frustrating ways, but it is there and we have to deal with it.

    It overlays the keeper map but adds a note "Home Turf" at the bottom. We know that Garrett is a "South Quarter independant thief" so the keeper/assassin map must be above South Quarter, if not directly next to it.

    Keep 'em coming
    str8g8

  6. #706
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    After I watched again the cutscene B09.avi from TDP (lost city), I can't help but think that the smaller river isn't as small as you see in assassins.
    Another image I took from CS06.avi showing G's apartments surroundings.

  7. #707
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Brown
    By the by, this is stunning. You continue to impress.
    It's not often that I change my desktop wallpaper. Now I did.

    Darn right it's stunning.

  8. #708
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    @solabusca
    Nice try there, but as str8g8 said, the assassins map can't be located there.
    (heh, I tried it myself, actually )
    A little more up, though, and it would actually fit pretty nicely. Hmm, I'll be back to this later.

    @str8g8
    Well I want to thank you, too, for all the hard work you've done for this project. While I'm still waiting for your comment about the smaller river, I just wanted you to see the "easiest" solution *if* it was the smaller river talked upon in the infamous river-low conversation.

    Your current layout is acceptable at the moment to me, with two exceptions: 1) Shalebride. While I can see the long, long reasonings behind it, it doesn't make me a happy man. However, I can, with some tongue biting, accept it.
    2) Shoalsgate. Was it purely to make balance over districts over both sides of river? Imaginatory district, but again, some tongue biting should get me over it.
    I hope I didn't sound too rude, it was not my intention (it comes with the fennoscandic genes)

  9. #709
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    This is an abstract of the current Quarter boundaries.

    *SNIP USEFUL IMAGE*

    I just don't see what the problem is
    The map without text or colour is very, very helpful. Thanks for that! It gives me the chance to better parse what you're trying to do with OQ.

    Right off I can see you forgot the Assassin map:
    **ASSASSINS MAP**
    Now, I'm not a fan of this particular map, it coincides and contradicts the Keeper map in all sorts of annoying and frustrating ways, but it is there and we have to deal with it.

    It overlays the keeper map but adds a note "Home Turf" at the bottom. We know that Garrett is a "South Quarter independant thief" so the keeper/assassin map must be above South Quarter, if not directly next to it.
    One thing - the assassin's map says Home Turf, not South Quarter - we know that G. uses multiple hidey-holes - it's why he's bolting to SB in T2.

    So how do we know that Home Turf is SQ in this instance? The note that Ramirez has might refer to one of G's other apartments. If it is NOT SQ, it re-opens a lot of possibilities.

    Yeah, SB being dead near or part of OQ is my particular hobgoblin. *I'm* attatched to the idea of it - I just believe it's something that needs to be worked over more.

    Heh. We should beg Viki to throw us a bone here.

    Oh, and again - led me praise the webpage and artwork, str8g8. You're too bloody talented.

    .j.

    .j.

  10. #710
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Well, lotsof things to get to grips with here



    sysqc: that's a really good find ... definately something that we have overlooked up until now, I believe.

    Shalesbridge
    Out of interest, I refer you guys to page 11 of this thread where in an earlier incarnation of the map I put Shalebridge exactly there. Mugla kinda convinced me otherwise ... well, I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe he should remind us why?

    It might me simpler, but it does invlolve a slight-of-hand in assuming Shalebridge is part of Old Quarter, and assuming that the keeper and Assassin maps completely fail to mention it. That involves a fair bit of tongue-biting as well.

    Shoalsgate
    Shoalsgate does involve some creative licence ... fact is there isn't much information to go on one way or the other. There is a Shoalsgate Station and a Shoalsgate Tavern, so there is at least the implication that it is a district or area of some kind ... and other then that, yes, it served a purpose by filling a hole between Shalesbridge and Auldale.

    Home Turf
    That Home Turf = South Quarter isn't categorical fact (what is?) but I think we'd be stretching things too much and for the wrong reasons to pretend otherwise.

    Implications
    If we move Shalesbridge however, it means there is no need to put a crook in the river ... it also means there is no need for Shoalsgate there ... also the city becomes quite unbalanced again ... In fact, this will change the entire character of the present map, which I actually like ...

    btw, sysqc, your map currently places the Hammerite Temple in the Sealed Section.

    @mol: I'm honoured
    and everyone else who like the site and artwork, thanks! I'll hopefully be posting some more paintings in the future, stay tuned.

    cheers
    str8g8
    Last edited by str8g8; 9th Sep 2005 at 06:01.

  11. #711
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: United Kingdom
    I seem to recall that image being brought up sometime in the far past - wasn't there a question as to whether or not that was actually a picture of Karath-Din?

    Of course, The City is built on Karath-Din, but since the entire thing was buried underground, any rivers depicted as part of it might have been substantially altered by the extreme geological activity.

  12. #712
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    Out of interest, I refer you guys to page 11 of this thread where in an earlier incarnation of the map I put Shalebridge exactly
    Wow. I get the feeling everything has been tried already
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    It might me simpler, but it does invlolve a slight-of-hand in assuming Shalebridge is part of Old Quarter, and assuming that the keeper and Assassin maps completely fail to mention it. That involves a fair bit of tongue-biting as well.
    Indeed, BUT, and this is a big BUT: Shalebridge road in Ambush! If we take again the easiest way, and think it's the one on the east shore of t3 city map going N-S, then it's easier to build a relation to it ála Auldale street.
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    There is a Shoalsgate Station and a Shoalsgate Tavern
    Ok, nice. I wasn't aware of the Tavern. It makes more sense after knowing that.
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    btw, sysqc, your map currently places the Hammerite Temple in the Sealed Section.
    Grah. Do you mean 'Strange bedfellows'? The talisman you see in TG grotto map? I never understood the grotto map talisman pictures.

  13. #713
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Play
    I seem to recall that image being brought up sometime in the far past - wasn't there a question as to whether or not that was actually a picture of Karath-Din?
    I have a very hard time trying to believe that. Being in a briefing video for lost city doesn't mean it's from lost city (remember, the mission begins with actually finding the entrance from new market). You can see some people on the balcony on the left, too.

  14. #714
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    Well, lotsof things to get to grips with here

    It might me simpler, but it does invlolve a slight-of-hand in assuming Shalebridge is part of Old Quarter, and assuming that the keeper and Assassin maps completely fail to mention it. That involves a fair bit of tongue-biting as well.
    About as much tongue-biting as assuming the HT=SQ... something I'm becoming more and more convinced can't be so, thanks to this little side-turn in conversation!

    Once again, for me it just ties together a bridge, an abandoned orphanage, and the fact that we have no other in-game map references to it beyond an arrow in Ambush! Again, this old thread was fun to peruse if only to see how far things have advanced (and to see how confounded some other things may have become as a result!)

    Shoalsgate
    Shoalsgate does involve some creative licence ... fact is there isn't much information to go on one way or the other. There is a Shoalsgate Station and a Shoalsgate Tavern, so there is at least the implication that it is a district or area of some kind ...
    Indeed, good call, and I don't think anyone's debating the existance as a district.

    Side note one - a shoal is defined as 'a sandbank or sandbar that makes the water shallow; specifically : an elevation which is not rocky and on which there is a depth of water of six fathoms (11 meters) or less' ... the -gate suffix in names tends to imply an entrance/exit to a specific section or city. I'd warrant that Shoalsgate is found at a point in the River that is shallow, and most likely served as a toll-point on the way upriver, initially.

    Side note two - how far does Truart have to travel to get to ShG? We know that there must be a few watch stations spread around the City (hey, they even co-opt a tavern or two in TDS), and more than a few prisons - the Hammers have Cragscleft outside of town, we know... there's Pavelock and Shoalsgate, as well.

    Home Turf
    That Home Turf = South Quarter isn't categorical fact (what is?) but I think we'd be stretching things too much and for the wrong reasons to pretend otherwise.
    The more I ponder it, the more certain I become that HT is not SQ in Assassins.

    Implications
    If we move Shalesbridge however, it means there is no need to put a crook in the river ...
    Wouldn't be the first time aesthetics entered into the equation - we have no in-game indication that the river bends like this, if memory serves. It was just a convenient way of forcing the mapping ideas to fit at the time. Now, the plus side is that since we know from in-game artwork that the city has more than a few hills (even shown in the levelled menu pic in TDS), it could account for such a curve.

    Oh, aside - there's a dialogue that refers to Wayside (no Docks suffix) as a district of whores and money-mongers. I'm guessing that's the name of the full district, and the Wayside Docks are found within... just throwing that out there.

    .j.
    Last edited by Solabusca; 9th Sep 2005 at 11:09.
    D Jeremy Brown - Black-hearted taffer, underworked editor and Karaoke War-god.

    Anything not nailed down is mine.
    Anything that can be pried loose is
    by definition not nailed down.

  15. #715
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    The more I ponder it, the more certain I become that HT is not SQ in Assassins.
    Solabusca: Then why not mark hometurf up north too? In making maps, the most obvious choice is usually the most used, no?


    Shadow Play: Indeed, we did discuss that the obelisk there in the horizon suggested the scene to be 'from olden times, when the shown River-fork wasn't sealed off by the Hammerites yet', but the medievalish castles suggested otherwise.
    (Sidenote; we can see the range of mountains that encircle the City, and the vale that was suggested to be the exit through Shalebridge and Shoalsgate to the caravan-routes outside).
    On the other side of the scales, we can see the 'River' in-game in Assassins!, and if you remember it, it's mostly an underground canal, just like in Baffords, Ambush! and Sealed Section. Whatever the river-fork in the Keeper-map was, it got paved over as we can see.
    So perhaps we 'see' the mouth of the canal exit into the River there? Perhaps it is an 'old image'? Or something completely unrelated? Or perhaps it looked like that at the time the seal was placed (same time as the Keeper-map was made); which begs the question, do we have definitive knowledge that it was sealed because the talisman was placed there, or was it an old seal to keep people out of their ancestral home, and just got an extra use with the talisman(s)?
    Shalesbridge
    Out of interest, I refer you guys to page 11 of this thread where in an earlier incarnation of the map I put Shalebridge exactly there. Mugla kinda convinced me otherwise ... well, I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe he should remind us why?
    str8g8: ...And I believe it might had been just the above-mentioned in-game evidence, no? Woult that had been enough to convince you, can't recall?


    It's not often that I change my desktop wallpaper. Now I did.

    Darn right it's stunning.
    Hehe... Umm... Me too...


    Back for more later. Nice to be workin with you guys every now and then.

  16. #716
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugla
    Solabusca: Then why not mark hometurf up north too? In making maps, the most obvious choice is usually the most used, no?
    Yes. Except who made the map (in-game, at least)? Garret. He lists all the other neighborhoods, but doesn't list SQ - maybe he's heading for a safe-house, or making his way back through the city - or maybe, just maybe, Ramirez has some incorrect information.

    .j.

  17. #717
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Very good. Atleast I can agree with the reasoning as an alternative; up until Ramirez. That I hope we can still use as a piece of evidence somehow.
    I'll have to think on these things for a bit more...

  18. #718
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugla
    Whatever the river-fork in the Keeper-map was, it got paved over as we can see.
    So perhaps we 'see' the mouth of the canal exit into the River there? Perhaps it is an 'old image'?
    Why take the hard route? Isn't it easier to think the picture is up-to-date and showing the upstream (ie. the beginning of the river)?
    The river, which after that point is man-made into canal network.
    Seems easier to me, more credible.
    Although.. if it would picture the exit, it would make nice opportunity for Shalebridge to jump in there somewhere, whereas in upstream it wouldn't fit next to new market, as it looks like hightowne is to the north of new market.
    I was a bit lost in the conversation about HomeTurf mark (I mixed HT for being HighTowne), but now that I know what is talked about, I just wanted to say that isn't it easy to think new market as part of southquarter? same way as stone market a part of old quarter? Then there is no need to read "south quarter" in the maps, right?

  19. #719
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by sysqc
    ... I just wanted to say that isn't it easy to think new market as part of southquarter? same way as stone market a part of old quarter? Then there is no need to read "south quarter" in the maps, right?
    Except that Stone Market is listed on the full City Map from TDS. As is South Quarter and Old Quarter.

    .j.
    Last edited by Solabusca; 12th Sep 2005 at 02:23.

  20. #720
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    Maybe because they are places you can visit in game? You know, for us silly little xbox players; we can check from the manual where we are 'n'stuff.

    Could some one please, please, pretty please with sugar on top, answer my question: what are the talisman marks on the thief gold keepers grotto map?
    Are they somehow pointing at underground locations? Or am I just really, really stupid not understanding them? Thanks.
    Last edited by sysqc; 9th Sep 2005 at 18:13.

  21. #721
    FW:FW:FW: SO TRUE!!!
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Seaside, Oregon
    The Map is of the LOCATION OF THE TALISMAN'S. Remember your old Pirate maps?

    X marks the spot.

    The Icon of the TALISMAN identifies the specific talisman. The location of it ON THE MAP and the little arrow point to WHERE THE REAL TALISMAN is in the REAL WORLD.


    Just like the drawn 3D maps of the TDS show the locations of the buildings etc.

    So... ICON of talisman on carved map = Location of TRUE TALISMAN in the real world.

  22. #722
    jtr7
    Guest
    The talisman marks show where the talisman's have been hidden away on the X and Y axes only. Without consulting a walkthrough for Thief Gold, I can't say if the talisman in the Mages' Tower is above or below, nor can I say the same for the talisman hidden at the opera house in Song of the Caverns. The talisman hidden in the Lost City (Karath din) is underground. I believe the talisman hidden in the Hammer Cathedral is above ground (it's not on the basement level, is it? It's been too long...).

    Maybe someone else can give you the short answer.
    Last edited by jtr7; 9th Sep 2005 at 19:15. Reason: Whoops! Sorry, theBlackman, we were posting at about the same time.

  23. #723
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    Ok, so what I don't understand, is that the fire & water talismans are located in lost city. Ok, so they're underground.
    Then there are earth & air talismans, both located in mission "undercover" (sorry for mixup earlier with "strange bedfellows").
    If we look at the grotto map, either the hammerite fortification is one hell of a big building, covering all of the grotto map, or there is something more to it that I can't see.
    Can someone clarify further?

    EDIT: Ok so the talismans weren't where I said they were (I was looking at the keepers chapel as I don't own the gold-version). This is getting more and more confusing...

  24. #724
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city

    Quote Originally Posted by sysqc
    Or am I just really, really stupid
    Bingo.

    Thanks though.

  25. #725
    jtr7
    Guest
    I assume you have figured it out, but just in case someone hasn't: The arrows point to almost the exact spot (as far as the illustrator understood from the information he/she was given), not a general area, each little shape represents a building of indeterminate height, depth, and architecture. The lines between are the roads, alleyways, etc. Sorry if I seem a bit pedantic.

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