Mapping out The City.

[Grundbegriff]

Originally posted by Sharga:
So Garrett has two apartments! No wonder he's always getting into trouble when it comes to money and landlords. But I suppose it is actually a wise decision because he is open to a larger range of oppertunities.

It's not just a "decision", nor is it arbitrary. We can be nearly certain that Garrett moves from one home to another during the intervening year (TG-->T2), since the area around his new apartment, the scale of the streets, the style of the canals, and the range of architecture around the new place is quite different from those connected to his old "Home Turf" location.

This was explained earlier in the thread, IIRC.

Garrett's apartment in Ambush isn't the same apartment to which he flees at the end of Assassins. This much is clear from in-game observation.

[Grundbegriff]

Originally posted by Munin the Raven:
The Potted Plant has struck a major chord in the mapping procedure here. Because Thief is in a fantasy setting, we have no guarantee that the solar, lunar, stellar, hemispherical, and magnetic mechanics are the same as they are on earth.... There's nothing that indicates that the sun and moon rise in the east in Thief:

That's right. But we're not floating freely in our interpretations. The gameworld is clearly analogous to the real world, and in general the game is playable because of the Working Assumption: the gameworld is like the Real World unless the game itself teaches us otherwise. In other words, we assume continuity and require evidence for alleged discontinuities. In still other words, show me the in-game evidence that the sun doesn't rise in the East in the City, and you'll have a point.

[*]there's a Pagan-style map of the City ... extract some information from this conversation and crude map.

Where's the map. Do you mean that Viktoria passes her hand over a map exposed in the grass while she's kneeling?

[The Potted Plant]

In spite of his words in the briefings, he is much more well-to-do in Thief II. Because his apartment is in a much classier part of town, and although we never saw his first one, the second one is almost definately nicer.

[Oliver Gregory]

Garrett's apartment in Ambush is nicer yes, but surely tht is due to his enterprises, not that his area is any more classy - the other apartments are very bland compared, since they are not occupied by a master thief. I got the impression that the area in Ambush is fairly lower class - the Crippled Burrick being a fairly rough pub and the area's proximity to Shalebridge seem to show it is certainly a rich area.

[The Potted Plant]

I mean compared to Assassins in TG/TDP, because there it looks like Garrett sleeps in an alley beside an old run-down factory where rows of Asian women and children braid cheap shoelaces.
I said LOOKS LIKE mind you.

[Agent Monkeysee]

Where is Garrett's apartment located in the Assassins map? I don't recall running into it at all. Just Farkus' and Ramirez's place.

[Grundbegriff]

Originally posted by Agent Monkeysee:
Where is Garrett's apartment located in the Assassins map? I don't recall running into it at all. Just Farkus' and Ramirez's place.

Play Assassins on Expert and trigger the alarm. Then skulk or flee through the streets until you see a Mission Complete video. The place where you were standing just before that video played is labeled "Home Turf" on the Assassins map. I take it that Garrett's apartment is the one (in that area) that has a conspicuous red door, or that it lies beyond that door somewhere.

Note too that LOST begins with Garrett's having just come through that doorway.

[Sharga]

Interesting observation there.
Grundy- You should make a more detailed map up at your developing site. Along with all the other hoards of things that you will have there

[SN]

In The Lost City, Garrett starts in one of the doorways of that little section. That's either his home/apartment or a friend's place

[Grundbegriff]

Originally posted by ShortName:
*snip*

Didn't I just write that only two messages above your own?

[Keeper of Metal and Gold]

The funny thing is, if we submitted this info to Randy for confirmation, he probably wouldn't be able to say!

[The Potted Plant]

But the City's very different in Lost! How can it be the same place? Or is it that they blocked off the Assassins part because it would be too big?

[Grundbegriff]

Originally posted by The Potted Plant:
But the City's very different in Lost!

The part of the City that's navigable in LOST is identical to that area as presented in ASSN. Yes, they eliminated the remainder as irrelevant to allow more polygons in Karath-Din.

[Oliver Gregory]

Yeah, if you look closely, the assasins map is complete with the locked Karath Din entrance.

[The Potted Plant]

I don't remember the river and the well and the wierd metal stable-like place being in Assassins! Even at the end, it didn't look at all the same to me.

[Sharga]

Surprisingly assassins is quite large. When I played it I simply followed the criminals to the mansion and did my business, missing out on the rest. But upon going into dromed I realized that even if you only follow to Ramirez's place and then go to your home turf there is still a lot of city you could have missed.

KoMaG- You're right. I'd be surprised if Randy and the rest of the crew were this worried about the exact location of everything and every area that you see in thief. But then again they have surprised me before with their great effort to details so I wouldn't be surprised if they took this into great consideration.

[Oliver Gregory]

Me neither Sharga - I haven't seen anything contradictory all the way through thief, but they probably make everything up as they go along anyway

[Pseudonymouse]

A while back, I had a few thought's about the city's location that seem vaguely appropriate:

I suspect that the city is in a fairly warm climate, probably comparable to the northern coast of the Mediterranean. My main reasons for thinking this are as follows:

1. Lots of places have open windows and doorways. Bafford's roof garden, for example, has a lot of open space into the house with no way of closing it. That seems to imply that it's normally warmish.

2. All those cicada noises. Cicadas only live in warmer climates.

3. It can't be very hot, because everyone builds large fireplaces that aren't just for cooking (because they don't occur only in the kitchen). In winter, at least, it must get a bit chilly.

4. All those small pine trees seem typical of a warm climate, ratehr than a more northerly deciduous woodland.

I therefore conclude that it must be moderately warm, but not hot. Problems with this theory would seem to be:

A. Fog. Does this imply a cooler climate? (also snow, although I don't recall seeing this implemented)
B. Cheese and deerlegs don't go off if left lying around, they don't even need to be stored in a cool larder. Does this imply that it's cool in the city?

[Fafhrd]

Originally Posted By Grundbegriff: That's a fairly obscure and specialized usage. More naturally, one would expect a "Dayport" to be a port that faces the sun.

Most really old cities have streets and districts with names that are obscure by todays standards, but when they were built made perfect sense at the time.

Originally Posted by Grundbegriff: Certainly a mine would more likely be inland than by the sea or by a river.

the entrance maybe, but the shafts can extend for miles, I refer you to:

Originally Posted By TheWatcher: Not necessarily. A lot of the old Tin mines in the Cornwall/Devon area of the UK have shafts which run out under the sea floor for considerable distances.

If we assume that The City started as a mining town, it would explain the odd naming convention of Dayport, the pseudo-industrial revolution technology at the cities disposal, miners need things like small railroads for carrying dirt and ore, and pumps for draining ground water, and the power that the Hammerites had, being the primary tech-wizzes of the world. Admittedly, the team at LGS probably named it for facing east, but the double meaning of day leaves the possibility of a double-meaning to the district name, and an extensive system of mineshafts beneath Dayport.

Hopefully this all made sense, I sometimes have trouble articulating my thoughts.

[NoCokePepsi]

A couple of questions:

1) Did LGS actually have a comprehensive and consistent map and history of all the Thief environs mentioned and located in the original missions, while they were developing T1 and T2?

2) Did LGS writers and designers stick rigorously to the map and history when they constructed the original missions?

[ August 11, 2001: Message edited by: NoCokePepsi ]

[Digital Nightfall]

Originally posted by NoCokePepsi:
A couple of questions:

1) Did LGS actually have a comprehensive and consistent map and history of all the Thief environs mentioned and located in the original missions, while they were developing T1 and T2?

2) Did LGS writers and designers stick rigorously to the map and history when they constructed the original missions?

[ August 11, 2001: Message edited by: NoCokePepsi ]

I don't know for sure, but I am going to go with a strong no to both of those.

[Digital Nightfall]

Originally posted by Pseudonymouse:
A. Fog. Does this imply a cooler climate? (also snow, although I don't recall seeing this implemented)

Fog usually happens when there is alot of moisture in the air and the temp goes from cold to hot or hot to cold very quickly, which is why it's common to have fog in the morning or evening.

Yes, it fogs here in Florida.

[Munin the Raven]

Thanks for the clarification on the logic system behind the construction, Grundbegriff.

I checked the servant conversation in Bafford's Manor and the cutscene in Trail of Blood:
[*]In the servant conversation, the woman comments on "never seeing the river so low" and that "you can almost walk across at Shalebridge". The male sevant replies "wouldn't New Market love that". I'd think this would mean that the two districts are adjacent, but if anyone has any other ideas on the meaning of such a comment, say so.
[*]Victoria's magic plant map in the Trail of Blood cutscene is hopelessly without form. Even if it was detailed enough, there's no way to know how it is oriented (whether or not north is up).

[zacharias]

Hail Grundbegriff! Ye Gods, they should hire him as a consultant for T3

[Oliver Gregory]

Originally posted by Fafhrd:
If we assume that The City started as a mining town, it would explain the odd naming convention of Dayport, the pseudo-industrial revolution technology at the cities disposal, miners need things like small railroads for carrying dirt and ore, and pumps for draining ground water, and the power that the Hammerites had, being the primary tech-wizzes of the world.QB]

Yes, I agree with that idea. In the 18th and 19th centuries in England when mining was about the main industry, many advances were made to make mining safer to reduce the risks. For example steam pumps were used to drain water and the safety lamp was invented. This sought of thing could have happened in the City. I say could though.