TTLG|Thief|Bioshock|System Shock|Deus Ex|Mobile
Page 34 of 99 FirstFirst ... 491419242930313233343536373839444954596469747984 ... LastLast
Results 826 to 850 of 2451

Thread: Mapping out The City.

  1. #826
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by MorbusG
    @Sola: You've come attached to the idea of HT not being SQ. Could you give some more thoughts as to why? The one with Ramirez's toughboys isn't valid: they didn't know where Garrett lives, they knew where he was buying lockpicks from.
    It's something that's been debated and discussed since very, very early in the thread. Mugla even suggested it early on - it makes sense to have multiple homes when you're a thief. Watch Heat for an example - you've got to be ready to turn and run when the Heat shows up. Why else is he heading to Shalebridge in ambush? He's got a safehouse there.

    Actually, it's implied with Ramirez's notes that they do know one of his hidey-holes - he's listed as a South Quarter independent.

    Oh, and by the same token, at no point in the game does he refer to Home Turf as South Quarter - there's no proof of it, one way or the other.

    .j.

  2. #827
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Oh, and by the same token, at no point in the game does he refer to Home Turf as South Quarter - there's no proof of it, one way or the other.
    True, there's no categorical proof, but it's still far and away the most likely conclusion, in my judgement. It's true Garrett may have safe-houses, (it is implied he has one in Shalebridge in T2, we actually see one in OQ in T3), it's also clear that he has a more permanent apartment in SQ thoughout all 3 games (as he says in a T3 city section briefing "I guess this is home"). So I believe Home Turf refers to South Quarter, but it doesn't have to be his back yard.

    However, placing Shalebridge in Old Quarter doesn't move the Assassin map so it's not a problem. It was only an earlier map of Sola's that did this. If you look at the last one (page 30 of this thread) then you'll see what I mean.

    Sola, is Lampfire Hills presented as a city section? (It sounds more of an outlying district or something).

    cheers
    str8g8

  3. #828
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    we actually see one in OQ in T3
    I had thought about this one earlier. It would be another proof of Sola's point if the apartment in T3 OQ is actually 449 Taft Avenue.
    If the HT-mark would be something other than SQ, I would be willing to accept if it would be the SB apartment.

    I mean, we have to draw a line *somewhere*: G can't own every fifth aparment in the city.

  4. #829
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - Home Turf is still meant to be South Quarter - of that I'm pretty certain.

    However, Sola's last map places Shalebridge in OQ but leaves the keeper map etc where it is, so that Home Turf does in fact line up with South Quarter. So I don't see this as an issue right now.

  5. #830
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by MorbusG
    I had thought about this one earlier. It would be another proof of Sola's point if the apartment in T3 OQ is actually 449 Taft Avenue.
    If the HT-mark would be something other than SQ, I would be willing to accept if it would be the SB apartment.

    I mean, we have to draw a line *somewhere*: G can't own every fifth aparment in the city.
    Hmmm... we'll, I didn't realize that there were only twenty apartments in the city.

    Let's see, depending on which version of the map I've posted it's:

    1) T3 Apt in SQ
    2) T2 Apt in SQ (most likely abandoned, so it won't count for the final total)
    3) T1 Apt South of Ramirez (may not even be an apartment, as Home Turf may represent the area away from the enemy)
    4) Safehouse in SB

    So that's anywhere between 2-4 apartments at any given time. Or, one apartment and a safehouse.

    .j.

  6. #831
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    Sola, is Lampfire Hills presented as a city section? (It sounds more of an outlying district or something).
    It's presented as a quieter suburb of the city, and a place where Garret rents a small house for one of his periodic 'retirements'. (AiLH)

    Further, it's north end is referred to as Lamfire, is bordered by cliff-faces (CL1).

    To the south/southeast is Highwatch (and Calendra's Cistern) (CC, CL1). I placed it where I did 'cause it's across the river from Hightowne.

    East is Murkbell, a very busy city section riddled with canals (CL2)

    .j.

  7. #832
    FW:FW:FW: SO TRUE!!!
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Seaside, Oregon
    Not to beat a dead horse, but the SHALEBRIDGE controversy (discussion) seems to have overlooked a simplistice option.

    It was not, and is not uncommon for city gates to be named for the "path" they cut off. The arrows do show Shalebridge proper to either be adjacent to, or a distance away from THE CITY.

    As THE CITY grew, it expanded over SHALEBRIDGE ROAD, and a GATE was put in the wall to enable the city to close off that route.

    The gate would naturally have been called SHALEBRIDGE GATE. And SHALEBRIDGE proper could easily be some distance from the current city walls.

    SHALEBRIDGE ROAD would have kept its name, and the inhabitants of the city thier referrences to it.

    Shalebridge Cradle merely takes its name because IT IS ON SHALEBRIDGE ROAD and not IN or ADJACENT to SHALEBRIDGE PROPER.

    edit: It could have been called, CATHEDRAL CRADLE (Cathedral way) had it been located on that street.

    This covers the cradle situation, Garrett's retreat, and justifies the use in the differing circumstances.

    I will have to study the maps with a little more attention to determine if it helps the map development.

    EDITED: For spelling and additional clarification.
    Last edited by theBlackman; 22nd Sep 2005 at 16:21.

  8. #833
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Blackman: that's precisely the argument for the current layout thankyou for summing it up so precisely.

  9. #834
    FW:FW:FW: SO TRUE!!!
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Seaside, Oregon
    Thanks, str8g8, as an after thought, (always the case). Randy has stated that the river divides THE CITY.

    Everyone is comfortable with this, the overlooked part of that is that many rivers of this type (estuary/bay/Coastal) frequently have "branches" that vary from mere rivlets to streams nearly the size of the parent.

    The river to LOST CITY need not be the main river, and the canals in various parts of the city may well be branches that were leveed and otherwise converted to canals. Also it is common (I have lived in many such places) for the "rivers, creeks, and other rivlets" to be paved over, run through drainage systems etc. to permit construction above and to control the "flood" possiblity. Not to mention using existing waterways for sewage and storm drainage; thus removing the need to construct new ones.

    So the visible water in AMBUSH, ASSASSINS, COURIER, and other such "Local" maps, may be merely small portions of the branches that were left open as a source for water or other use.

  10. #835
    FW:FW:FW: SO TRUE!!!
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Seaside, Oregon
    Map makers check this out

    All the maps could be put in this and it will scroll the maps for viewing.

    Any mapper registered could add a map at any time. This would negate the need for all the links to the different sites we are currently using.

    Everyone would still have his or her or its map on thier own site, but a single link to the "Scroll" would be the only link needed.

    Sounds like a potential tool. http://www.filmloop.com

  11. #836
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlackman
    SHALEBRIDGE ROAD would have kept its name, and the inhabitants of the city thier referrences to it.

    Shalebridge Cradle merely takes its name because IT IS ON SHALEBRIDGE ROAD and not IN or ADJACENT to SHALEBRIDGE PROPER.

    edit: It could have been called, CATHEDRAL CRADLE (Cathedral way) had it been located on that street.

    This covers the cradle situation, Garrett's retreat, and justifies the use in the differing circumstances.

    I will have to study the maps with a little more attention to determine if it helps the map development.
    *sigh*

    Beating dead horse time, indeed -

    1) Shalebridge road runs N/S in Ambush. Most recent map has Cradle far to the east, and SB very, very far to the NW.

    2) Arrows to SB point NE. Not NW. AMBUSH indicates a quick getaway, not a city-wide trek, so current map layout seems clunky in that respect. Solution: move SB closer on the map - I've posited two possibles, and am looking forward to further discussion.

    3) Shalebridge/Newmarket river connection, which you touch on in a later post - the city is riddled with waterways. There's nothing saying that SB is on the other side of the HUGE RIVER, just A river.

    two of the three problems are solved by reverting to the earlier map (and/or placing SB on the south shore), because it allows SB to be NE, and near enough to NM to 'cross a river' due to a drought.

    The only remaining problem is the Cradle, which is not connected to Shalebridge road.

    Anyways, as I said, the compromise map I've posted is still up for debate.

    Back to work for me, gents!

    .j.

  12. #837
    jtr7
    Guest

    Warning: Big, sloppy sentences...

    With mountains to the north and east, and hills here and there (based on briefings, map layouts, and discussions in this thread), noting the shape of Cragscleft (similar to the range seen in a briefing) and all of the run-off, there shouldn't be too much debate over tributaries and canals (likely diverted tributaries) versus a "huge friggin' river," with watercraft and bridges spanning across it (with several columns and arches supporting them).

    As an aside, I wonder why we don't see geo-thermal activity such as geysers, scalding hot springs, steaming fissures, etc., since the Lost City shows water flowing into the crust and lava all over (before TMA, anyway), and the Maw has similar Fire/Water juxtapositions...

  13. #838
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Just to illustrate the possible route of Shalebridge Road:

    AFter some thought I think we should discount Sola's second idea of placing SB in the northern part of OQ as this seems neither one thing nor the other in that it leaves us with the same old problem regarding the cradle.

    I think it's either all or nothing in this respect: either make Shalebridge the southern tip of Old Quarter, or we should leave Shalebridge as a large quarter to the north.

    I would still like to hear the opinions of the old guard on this (I'm thinking of Mugla and Doc_Brown in particular) and no sitting on the fence .

    cheers
    str8g8

  14. #839
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Quote Originally Posted by Solabusca

    1) Shalebridge road runs N/S in Ambush. Most recent map has Cradle far to the east, and SB very, very far to the NW.

    2) Arrows to SB point NE. Not NW. AMBUSH indicates a quick getaway, not a city-wide trek, so current map layout seems clunky in that respect. Solution: move SB closer on the map - I've posited two possibles, and am looking forward to further discussion.

    3) Shalebridge/Newmarket river connection, which you touch on in a later post - the city is riddled with waterways. There's nothing saying that SB is on the other side of the HUGE RIVER, just A river.
    The map above (by str8g8) is actually one of the oldest maps we have been playin around, so I'm wondering how you could had missed it. I take you have been referring to str8g8's newest version, in which I noticed the same issues as you did?

    1. One of the main roads from T3 map runs N-S, and dodges down into the Cradle (which is, by the way, at the first bridge, clearly seen in the cutscene with Inspector Drept).

    When connecting Ambush! with it, we can name it SB-road. This will also leave the Ambush! home into SQ for now (it is 'home turf', meaning a place where he 'reigns'. All Ramirez knew G. terrorized SQ, thus the ambush had to be somewhere where he could find him (otherwise it would had been straightly directed at his home, while he was shopping etc. kind of explanation)), and name the northest bridge... Shale Bridge...
    Also such option for the name of the Cradle was discussed, that it was made for the orphans of the Shalebridge, but the snob who funded it wanted to keep the kids away from the old neighbourhood.

    2. So now the arrows of Ambush! point directly at Shalebridge, which was actually stretched so that it would fit inside them. For me it seems that there has to be some distance due to the arrows, or they wouldn't be there, just like the corners are straightly named without arrows in the Assassins! map. Just as str8g8 said, there then can be a clear run to the safety of SB, as the guards are swarming around G.'s house for a reason. But that is only one option.

    3. The River dilemma is true, and indeed, as theBlackman suggested, we've already considered calling the stream from the Keeper-map (and later paved over in Assassins! some 50 years later) a side-track from the main River. The hills have been planned accordingly, too.
    But, as I've noted, it has been paved over. Actually so much, that I cannot see how the peasants would use it to cross, when they simply can walk over it 80% of the lenght!
    So, in the above map, Assassins! was placed as close to the River as possible, and if it weren't for the Keeper-map and the few rows of houses over the north-wall, the wall would had been right next to the River.

    Also note the LotP guest-register, where this feller was having 'a vacation in Shalebridge', but this was 'hand-waved' as being some slang for being bankrupt etc. Though why would the mechanists use such language, I cannot say. Or perhaps they were only told so, and believed it.
    Anyways, just an option.

    So, now we have pretty much two valid options, the two str8g8 mentioned above.

    EDIT:
    Image hosted by Photobucket.com
    Oh, also note, Assassins!' real scale. Brings NM even closer. Perhaps it could stretch above the wall too? But... hometurf retracts upwards... Then again, it was never tied to SQ anyways...
    Last edited by Mugla; 23rd Sep 2005 at 10:31.

  15. #840
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002

    To avoid a too long post.

    Alright, as I see it, we should wait MorbusG finish his work on the evidence-gathering, and then construct a full map on both versions. Unless either turns out to be clearly better option, we will have to include both, and let the fan-missioners vote, which they'll use. The other one will then be left as a margin note for accounting purposes. We might also be able to use that filmloop.com Black mentioned to speed up some of the exchange, do you think?

    Also the site's build should be taken under consideration.


    Logan: Well, just for the fun's sake (remember to give some artistic freedom for such sketches. It might be a real-life sketch of a town after-all, much like the picture of the Trixter playing the bag-pipes is):
    -The River-curve can be seen going into the distance.
    -Sea can be seen at the fore-ground
    -Clocktower on the hill in the left side
    -Mountains on the right side of the picture, in the correct alignment
    -The 'gates' by the river-bend, part of the Sealed Section
    -The shoals in the river-bend (though on the wrong side, due to natural river behavior and Shoalsgate on the opposite bank etc.)

    But:
    -There is merely wilderness in Dayport
    -No bridges seen, just a water-fence

    Remember, just for the fun's sake.

  16. #841
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Look Familiar?



    It's just something to inspire, my friends...

    For a more detailed map, check HERE

    .j.
    D Jeremy Brown - Black-hearted taffer, underworked editor and Karaoke War-god.

    Anything not nailed down is mine.
    Anything that can be pried loose is
    by definition not nailed down.

  17. #842
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    I would still like to hear the opinions of the old guard on this (I'm thinking of Mugla and Doc_Brown in particular)
    Be right with you. Quitting a stressful job, looking for a new apartment. Just a tad preoccupied at the moment.

  18. #843
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2003
    Location: Russia, Moscow
    Quote Originally Posted by Solabusca
    Look Familiar?

    http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/ne...g_I_21_3_b.jpg

    It's just something to inspire, my friends...

    For a more detailed map, check HERE

    .j.
    Ehhe!!!! It's not look familiar it's the SAME... The name of city the SAME!!!
    What does it mean if this picture was use for Thief?
    1572, Civitatis Orbis Terrarum, Braun-Hogemberg, tav. X, Goricum.
    It's a GORINCHEM
    http://www.capurromrc.it/mappe/!0182gorinchem.html

    City based on a Gorinhem So it's will be many answers
    http://www.xs4all.nl/~pho/Tourtownwalls/townwall.htm
    http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/ne...gorinchem.html
    http://www.rat.de/kuijsten/atlas/zh/...nds/gorinchem/
    http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/ne...rg_I_21_3.html
    http://www.ecotopia.nl/old/images/Gorinchem.GIF
    http://www.euronet.nl/~bash/images/stad1.jpg

    So is it GORINUM the NAME OF A CITY??????
    If we have a Holland fans her?
    I know where I want to go next summer!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by Logan; 26th Sep 2005 at 03:53.

  19. #844
    That last picture... it...

    River in middle, three bridges....

    This may be a terrific find indeed! Also, i think this also brings up the possibility of "The city" being surrounded by water.... it would help define the boarers of the districts...

    I dunno =/

  20. #845
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Be right with you. Quitting a stressful job, looking for a new apartment. Just a tad preoccupied at the moment.
    Ouch, yes, Real Life does have a habit of getting in the way sometimes, doesn't it? I hope you get it sorted out soon.

    Alright, as I see it, we should wait MorbusG finish his work on the evidence-gathering, and then construct a full map on both versions.
    Well, I don't want to do a full map on both versions, if by full you mean finished. It will a big enough task as it is. We can do the basic layout for both versions and then pick one (perhaps this is what you meant?).

    This Gorinchem angle is interesting, but I don't think the City is based too closely on any single place ... for instance, the City is much bigger than this Gorinchem, which seems to be more of a town. Places like Amsterdam, Stockholm, Venice, in fact any medieval European city built on water would probably have been influences in the design of the City.

    I wonder if anyone will find the map that was used as the basis of the T3 city map ... ? That would be a find.

    I like the idea that the the City might be surrounded by water - the canal system is there, the city walls are there, it would make sense in some way to use the water as part of the City's defences. When the layout is settled, this is just the kind of detail that can be added.

    cheers
    str8g8

  21. #846
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2003
    Location: Russia, Moscow
    I found a google map link
    http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=51.82...8901&t=h&hl=en
    As you see old paintings is only the center of the city for today and 17 century it was more bigger so the city walls not the limits where thief game was

  22. #847
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Guys.

    Seriously.

    The Dev's used a piece of art as inspiration.

    They're NOT mapping out a Dutch city in extreme size. The architecture, layout and design of Gorinchem are all wrong. Add to that the fact that it's so bloody small in comparison...

    I was just pointing out that using this screenshot would lead to faulty conclusions - and thank you for proving my point.

    It was, much like the picture of Luther's head, simply inspirational.

    Oh, and I doubt the City would be able to support a moat the way medival Goricum does - primarily due to the expanding nature of the city.

    .j.

    [EDIT: As a quick heads up, Gorinchem today has a population of around 32,000, and covers 21.99 km2. A far cry from the sprawling metropolis that is the City.]
    Last edited by Solabusca; 26th Sep 2005 at 17:42.

  23. #848
    Hey, somethings been bugging me here:

    How come you have the "Lost city entrance" in New market? It's located in the river in "Assassins". Check it out. Open up miss5.mis (assassins) and miss9.mis (The Lost City). In mis 5, head down towards "home turf" and find the river, and there you'll see the keeper door lock . Exploring around, you'll also see it is 99% the SAME MAP as in the begining of "TLC" (Except the water changes color, and there's a missing manhole in "home turf" in Assassins, but other than that, its the same!)

    Or has this been discussed?

  24. #849
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
    How come you have the "Lost city entrance" in New market? It's located in the river in "Assassins".
    Have you looked at the map in "Assassins"? It's the one where you're in New Market.
    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
    Or has this been discussed?
    Yes, very early.

  25. #850
    Oooh... i thought that jumble of lines in the middle of the map was the Assassins map, not the "courier" one from T2. So that's why i was confused as to why "assassins" and "TLC" were put in two different palces.. because that wasn't the assassins map. My bad >_<

    So, okay, why hasn't that assassins map been pasted in yet?

    [edit] oh wait, i see it... uhm... should the "tlc" not be within the confies of the "assassins" map itself, isntead of floating away from it then?
    Last edited by EmperorSteele; 27th Sep 2005 at 16:06.

Page 34 of 99 FirstFirst ... 491419242930313233343536373839444954596469747984 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •