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Thread: Mapping out The City.

  1. #101
    TheWatcher
    Guest

    Originally posted by Grundbegriff:
    With respect, Aaron made a bunch of that stuff up out of whole cloth; his details don't necessarily have an evidential basis in the gameworld itself.
    Granted. But considering that this is an imaginary world, and the material concerned considerably pre-dates the time at which the games take place, and the amount of evidence available for the early history of the City is patchy at best, I think he has done a good job of coming up with some fairly good "filler" material. If we restricted ourselves to the information available in the game an nowhere else, there'd be no FMs, no fanfics..

    Who says the Eye (or any similar stone) was found in Cragscleft? The presence of zombies isn't automatically an index of Eye-influence.
    The mines contain a number of hammer constructions in addition to pre-existing mine structures. The chapel on the top floor of the mines was obviously abandoned in a short space of time and apparently with some conflict (you don't get pews thrown around and altars knocked over in normal situations). Obviously the mines were not zombie-filled before the hammers arrived there, otherwise why even start building the chapel, but something happened after they had started to alter or reopen the mines which caused a hurried withdrawal, the apperance of a number of undead and a complete ban on hammers entering the mines. Necromancy does not seem to be a common Hammer practice, so someone or something created a number of zombies there. While there is no direct evidence to identify the eye as the culprit, it does offer a neat explanation. IMO. If you have another explanation for all these facts, please tell us what it is - debate is good!

  2. #102

    Originally posted by Agent Monkeysee:
    Grund, I'm dying to hear your response to Randy's comment
    My response is already evident in my earlier messages in this thread.

    Randy said:
    There's a big friggin' river in the city. It runs N-S and splits the city in 2. It joins the ocean to the south.
    Earlier, I wrote:
    The area shown on the Keepers' Table corresponds to the accessible area in Assassins..... Thus, the "river...flowing through the city" on that map is the small canal that Garrett encounters in Assassins. This canal theme is revisited in Ambush and Courier. Clearly, the City has canals....

    It seems to me that this boat (in the Soulforge briefing) is clearly a small shrimping or fishing boat, not a "big, swaying ship". It's true, however, that Garrett is on a bridge that spans a broad waterway. The bridge appears to be high enough to allow medium-sized cargo or war ships to pass beneath, but not high enough to permit the large ones....

    I would say that the river runs past Shalebridge in the northern part of the City (with Shalebridge southwest of the river), and that Shalebridge must be a common approach to New Market from the north. A river that can be forded in multiple places would increase southbound pedestrian and cart traffic to New Market.
    I'm all for a north-south waterway and placed one on my map as soon as the location of the sea was properly deduced. The question here is how it runs through "the middle of the City" and why it would be considered a "big friggin'" river instead of the sad little trickle heading southbound into New Market on the Keepers' Grotto tablemap. At the moment, I have a N-S river running down the right, eastward side of the City.

    If the LGS map shows the River as "big", then perhaps the trickle that seems more like a canal is that river, but reflects the drought conditions. That's not a bad way to harmonize the evidence. On the other hand, if the canals we encounter in Assassins were to carry the water of a large river, they'd overflow and flood New Market!

    It's rather difficult to figure out where the River should run. It should obviously be near the canals, but not redundant with them. Canals run throughout New Market, through part of the Old Quarter, and through the Ambush section of the New Quarter, southwest of Shalebridge. Possibly they run elsewhere.

    On the assumption that the rivulet shown on the Keepers' Grotto map is supposed to be the drought-stricken river, my map should be revised to label it a river instead of a canal, to broaden it a bit, and to show it continuing southbound through the South Quarter and Dayport.

    On the assumption that the water entering New Market isn't the River, it would have to run N-S to the east of the Assassins map, traversing the Old Quarter, DownTowne, the South Quarter, and perhaps Dayport or Eastport.

    [ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: Grundbegriff ]

  3. #103

    Originally posted by TheWatcher:
    I think he has done a good job of coming up with some fairly good "filler" material.
    Yes, he has invented many interesting bits of fiction. My only point is that it's helpful to distinguish between speculation that follows deductively or with high probability from in-game evidence on the one hand, and speculation that follows imaginative in-filling and avoids contradiction on the other.

    There's a difference between being logically compatible (avoiding contradiction) and being a logical consequence (actually following from stated premises).

    If we restricted ourselves to the information available in the game an nowhere else, there'd be no FMs, no fanfics...
    I'm not recommending that we "restrict ourselves" in general. I'm merely pointing out that given restricted interpretation on the one hand (call it "canonical") and unrestricted interpretation on the other (call it "fan-mission style"), my readings tend toward the former and Aaron's clearly tend toward the latter. That's all.

    I also think a fan mission that offered deep connections to in-game evidence would be a fun addition to the heap, even though it would be pointless to require that degree of rigor for all fan missions.

    The mines contain a number of hammer constructions.... Obviously the mines were not zombie-filled before the hammers arrived there.... Necromancy does not seem to be a common Hammer practice, so someone or something created a number of zombies there.... While there is no direct evidence to identify the eye as the culprit, it does offer a neat explanation.
    The Eye offers a convoluted and improbable explanation, for such an account would have the fully crafted Eye bouncing from Karath-Din to careless northbound farmers(?!) to Cragscleft to the Pagans to the Cathedral. (Don't forget that the Pagans used this "ancient evil" against the Hammerites first; that's what gave the brash young Hammerites the idea of using it back at them.) Or else it posits strange earthquakes that selectively transport sentient gemstones.

    Yeah, right.

    My notion is simpler: The Eye was crafted and mounted in Karath-Din. It caused some trouble there. It was carried from there when the Lost City fell, and ended up in the hands of the Pagans who used it against the Hammerites. The Hammerites prevailed and took possession of the Eye. They later sought to use it against the Pagans and the effort backfired. The Keepers locked it away in the Cathedral.

    Meanwhile, the oddities in Cragscleft represent unsuccessful Hammerite efforts to occupy an already necromantically charged mine. The undeath problem there is caused by another source of necromantic power.

    There's no reason to pin every case of necromancy on the Eye. We know for example that necromancy in Dayport is a result of Azaran's tinkering with the Book of Ash, and that necromancy in Eastport is a result of Karras's tinkering with masks. Zombies pop up in the graveyard in (on my map) the New Quarter, and there's also the matter of Truart's basement. Did I mention the holding cells at Shoalsgate? I posit that several Precursor artifacts and bits of lore remain, and that several seem linked to necromancy. I also reckon that Precursor artifacts are not the only source of necromantic effects.

    Rather than creating a slave class, the Precursors were (in my view) seeking immortality and seeking to revive their ancestors, whom they obviously honored with complex burial practices.

    [ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: Grundbegriff ]

  4. #104
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Yorkshire, UK

    It seems to me that undeath may be a natural event in the Thief Universe. In the graveyard in Courier, there is a zombie for example, and there are haunts in the catacombs beneath the Mechanist seminary. I don't see how these events could be due to the eye, especially as the zombie in courier has been buried recently, long aftter Thief: TDP.
    If undeath is natural, then maybe the zombies in Cragscleft were once miners, killed in an accident (eg. tunnel collapse), who were not taken out and buried. They were then eventually disturbed or escaped on their own, and caused the Hammerites to flee the mines.
    Always Remember Rule One:
    Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men!
    --Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time

  5. #105
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: England

    If undeath where a natural occurance, then I imagine The City would be overrun by its past generations. Perhaps it is a rare occurance, or certain individuals who were involved with/effected by/practiced necromancy are the ones Garret meets occasionally in graveyards etc.

    A map will definately be very beneficial, especially as I am working on a Thief RPG (based on either the D20 or D6 die systems) and such a resource would be very useful in planning and executing adventures.

    Another question - how far away are the forests? I haven't played T1, just T2, and it occurs to me that unless the Mechanists organised a lengthly and costly expedition into the forests to hunt pagans, they must not be a HUGE distance - unless their hate of them was so great they were willing to go to such lengths.

  6. #106

    Originally posted by Oliver Gregory:
    It seems to me that undeath may be a natural event in the Thief Universe.
    Yes, it seems likely that undeath is occurrent but rare, and that necromancy accelerates or manipulates undeath rather than causing it outright. A question of degree rather than of kind.

    maybe the zombies in Cragscleft were once miners, killed in an accident (eg. tunnel collapse), who were not taken out and buried.
    This is a much better explanation, IMO, since we know from Murus that the value of a proper burial is not merely symbolic but also metaphysical.

  7. #107
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: England

    What if there was a dam or some other sort of system that controlled the flow of the river's water at the northern entrance to The City? That would mean that the river could flow through the canals without flooding, wouldn't it?

  8. #108

    Originally posted by Silencer:
    What if there was a dam or some other sort of system that controlled the flow of the river's water at the northern entrance to The City? That would mean that the river could flow through the canals without flooding, wouldn't it?
    That's not a bad idea, provided we're willing to have a lake or reservoir in the northern districts. However, Randy referred to a "big friggin' river" running through the middle of the City.

    Perhaps they hadn't quite figured out (or decided to invest their attention in) matters of scale when Assassins was made. Still, we work with what's there, no? A dam is possible, but I'd worry about the issues of hygiene and sanitation involved in having watersheds that close to the Old Quarter.

  9. #109
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: England

    Hygiene and sanitation? In a medevial setting?

    Actually, the water in Ambush! and Courier does look pretty clean, but usually in historical terms, comon practice was to bathe, wash and drink the same stuff.

    Perhaps there are water purification systems. More advanced tech I know, I but since water arrows are often found in bathtubs and the like, its possible that the elemental crystal is used to cleanse water in the same way fire crystals appear to be used for lighting fires (lazy - what ever happened to rubbing sticks together?)

    [ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Silencer ]
    I bet the Baron gets to eat cow all the time. Not potato, potato, potato... - Disgruntled Guard

  10. #110
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: England

    Ok, here's another theory, though I admit its pretty far fetched. If the canals are only off-shoots of the river, perhaps parts of it have been built over - large constructs over them on which sections of The City rest.

    _________________
    ___|~~~~~~~~|____

    Still a bit of a problem discovering where exactly it flows, and I don't think this is really possible for the Old Quarter - assuming they had the ability to do this later on, I doubt the architects of the Old Quarter would have possessed the resources to do this

  11. #111
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Yorkshire, UK

    Originally posted by Silencer:
    [QB]Hygiene and sanitation? In a medevial setting?
    QB]
    You forget that the city is more technologically advanced than medieval Europe, with plumbing and sewage systems - these were not found in European cities really during the middle ages.
    Always Remember Rule One:
    Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men!
    --Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time

  12. #112
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: England

    Yes, however the fact that so many nobles and factories have water crystals inside their water sources, I assumed the water isn't totally sanitary and needs purification. After all, I doubt the peasants have plumbing.

    Grr, it's hard to get your hands on Thief Gold - ordered it from one site and got message saying it was out of stock despite being listed as IN stock. Ordered it from somewhere else, but its frustrating having T2 and not being able to get a hold of T1...

  13. #113
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

    Thinking about forested areas in proximity to the city... there's are several mentions of the lack of any in T2, but that seems obvious... it's also apparent that wooded areas are fairly uncommon within the immediate proximity of the city in T1, based solely on the fact that the nobles have special greenhouses/terrarriums built to allow access to trees.

    I would posit that the woodland is being pushed ever further by a combination of deforestation for industry (as shown by the overabundance of wooden artefacts in City homes, as well as the overabundance of City homes and the construction materials used to build them) compounded by pollution provided by Hammerite/Mechanist machinery and alchemical factories, and other industry.

    In essence, the City could be surrounded by the small outlying communities that spring up to support large-sized communities, creating a range of population zones extending to the edge of the forest.

    On to the matter of undeath in the Thief world... I'm inclined to agree with Grundy on this one: positing that necromantic energy permeates different areas of the Thief world makes sense. Certain things (such as the eye) may control/channel it, or generate it, affecting the surrounding world in negative ways. Magic works in this world. What supplies the power? Force of will shapes it, yes, but for the most part, would it come from within or without with respect to the controller? If it comes from without, it could stagnate occaisionally, collect as 'negative' energy in places of death and decay, and cause this situation of undeath to arise. Obviously not every death in the City will result in a Zombie, but some will.

    As an aside, the graveyard in Courier is quite near an entry to the Maw... a lot of energy could spill out of that.

    .v.

    [ August 19, 2001: Message edited by: Valentin ]
    Valentin (aka .j.)

    Anything not nailed down is mine.
    Anything that can be pried loose is not nailed down.

    - traditional saying

  14. #114

  15. #115
    Member
    Registered: Nov 1999
    Location: France

    Originally posted by Digital Nightfall:
    bump
    ouch !

  16. #116
    Member
    Registered: Nov 1999
    Location: France

    We now have an explanation for the necromantic activity in the City. Mordeth is roaming about the City :
    http://www.ttlg.com/forums/cgi-bin/u...&f=14&t=006956

    (For those who haven't read Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time, Mordeth is an ancient evil spirit "living" in the haunted city of Aridhol (city also called Shadar Logoth = "The Shadow Waits"), although not the dominant evil in that place)

    [ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: Yannick ]

  17. #117
    DeepQantas
    Guest

    Grundbegriff on another thread:
    sv1c0204: Heh. Wouldn't Newmarket love that {since Newmarket is on the other side of the river from Shalebridge, and would welcome additional pedestrian commercial traffic that is normally bottlenecked on Shalebridge's bridge.}!

    This seems so obvious to me. The servant is saying that people in Newmarket would be horrified if something as scandalous would happen as lower class people from Shalebridge walking freely the streets of New Market.

    Isn't Shalebridge reputed to be a cheap neighbourhood?

    Shale = A fine-grained sedimentary rock of a thin, laminated, and often friable, structure.

    I wouldn't put my foot on that bridge.

    If there happened to be a low-class and a high-class district separated by a bridge in my town, I would certainly make only one bridge between them and post guards to keep the mob out of the sight of good people.


    Furthermore since the other servant says that you can "almost cross the river *AT* Shalebridge" I think it indicates that river runs along New Market and separates it from some other districts too.

    And since she's seen how low the river is there, I'd say she and the other servant consider themselves to be that high-class (relatively).

    You people seem to shun the idea that the City could be on the both sides of the river... odd that.

  18. #118
    DeepQantas
    Guest

    OOPS!

    Posted before I read the third page...

    Well. Let me read it first and flame me then.

    [edit]

    Yes. Ignore my last sentece in the previous post, but other than that, tell me what you think.

    [ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: DeepQantas ]

  19. #119

    Originally posted by DeepQantas:
    This seems so obvious to me. The servant is saying that people in Newmarket would be horrified if something as scandalous would happen as lower class people from Shalebridge walking freely the streets of New Market. Isn't Shalebridge reputed to be a cheap neighbourhood?
    One of the few things we know about Shalebridge is that Bandly Rofthoffer, a noble or celebrity invited to Angelwatch by Karras himself, is on holiday in Shalebridge.

    Does that fact fit with your theory about what the servants meant? Does it at least render your theory less "obvious"?

  20. #120

    Furthermore, Raputo, one of the most powerful wardens, lives in Shalebridge.

    And finally, Shalebridge is directly adjacent to the upper-class Hightowne.

  21. #121

    Originally posted by Digital Nightfall:
    Furthermore, Raputo, one of the most powerful wardens, lives in Shalebridge.
    We learn from Ramirez's dossier that Raputo is "Warden of North Quarter, Shalebridge, Newmarket, New Quarter". But do we ever learn where Raputo lives? I recall no such info.

    Shalebridge is directly adjacent to the upper-class Hightowne.
    Good point. HighTowne is no slum, else its warden, Ramirez, would lose face. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Baronial estate is also in HighTowne, since it was likely built inland from the original settlement in DownTowne and the Old Quarter.

  22. #122

    Originally posted by Grundbegriff:
    We learn from Ramirez's dossier that Raputo is "Warden of North Quarter, Shalebridge, Newmarket, New Quarter". But do we ever learn where Raputo lives? I recall no such info.
    Now that you mention it, I could have read that anywhere. I am sure I didn't make it up, since I did research it, but I don't know if it really came from the game or not. Hmmm...

    BEEP .. wrong. Silly me. He lives in Undermarket ... or at least the old Thief 1 Lexicon says so.

    [ August 21, 2001: Message edited by: Digital Nightfall ]

  23. #123

    Originally posted by Digital Nightfall:
    Silly me. He lives in Undermarket ... or at least the old Thief 1 Lexicon says so.
    Of course, there's no mention at all of "Undermarket" as a place, though there's mention of the underguild in Blackbrook as a thing.

    See, this is why I compiled a new, documented lexicon

  24. #124

    BTW, I believe "undermarket" is City slang for "black market" and "underguild" is lingo for "organized crime" -- especially, crime organized by a guild of wardens, or by a guild working alongside (i.e., against or independent from) wardens.

    Thus, the City's own underguild (if there were one) would be the nominal association of the crime wardens (Raputo, Ramirez, Webster, et al.), the Downwinders (led by D & R), and any similar guilds that have managed to retain a degree of autonomy or irreducibility.

    As you'll recall, the City is at pseudo-war with Blackbrook, but that city's underguild has sent an ambassador, Dorcas Goodfellow, to meet with Ramirez (and perhaps other wardens) in the City, so that illegal trade can thrive even while legal trade is strangled by the Baron's "war"-driven taxation.

  25. #125
    New Member
    Registered: Jul 1999
    Location: Sweden

    A river runs throught it I say. Going on the DeepQuantas thread I think that the river goes between High Towne and Shalebridge and divides the modern city in a natural way. Not that Shalebridge necessarily would be cheap neigbourhood, we have as far as I know no evidence for that. Shale could be short for shallow, pointing out that the water is not that deep.

    To illustrate how it might look like I have taken the liberty of using your map Grundy, I hope you don't mind. I have 'drawn' in some changes I thought were appropriate. I encourage everyone to continue with this miracalous effort to map the city



    \
    \ Shalebridge North
    \ Quarter ___ { ~~
    \ _______| \_ ( ~ ~~
    \ \ | |\ { ~~~
    \ \ |Olde Quarter| \ / ~~ ~
    \ \ |___________| \ / ~~ ~~~ ~
    \ |______'' / / ~~ ~ ~~~ ~~
    HighTowne/ \ / = ~~~ ~~
    / New ; DownTowne / = ~~ ~~~ ~~~
    _____| Market/| / = ~~~ ~~~~ ~~
    _/ \____ / == ~~ ~~ ~ ~~ ~~
    New / \___/--- == ~~ ~~ ~~~ ~~ ~ ~~
    Quarter ____/ \ = ~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~~
    South \ East = ~~ ~~~ ~ ~~
    Quarter | port = ~~ ~~~ ~~~
    / == ~~~ ~~ ~~
    ______-------_____/ = ~~~~ ~~~~ MOUNTAINS-->
    \ = ~~~ ~
    \ == ~~~ ~~
    | = ~~~ ~~ ~~
    Wayside Docks Dayport | == ~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~
    ==============\ /== ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~
    == ~~~~ ~~~ ~~ ~~ =========\ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~
    == ~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~
    -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~~
    -- ~~ ~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~~~~


    Some explainations this new map theory provides:
    - New Quarter is 'new' because it was build on the other side of the river and later in the development of the city.
    - High Towne would as much high upon hills as secluded with the river on the yonder side.
    - The Wayside Docks are the docks on the other side of the river, along the road (to Blackbrook?), and therefor wayside.
    - Eastport is now more along the east coast, and through that a quite large port. Dayport is probably the old main port (scrapping the mine theory) and now a modern neigbourhood for the up and coming in the city. I think the port activity have deminished if the land prices have gone up.

    Another neat thing about this division, is that Dark project takes place on one side of the river, i.e. in the older part of the City and The Metal Age continues to seek out the other parts of town mostly on the other side of the river. With a few exceptions of course.
    This also gives plenty of places to make room for the Baron, his castle and new parts of town. We are still missing the town square and the stone market, don't we? Well, maybe they are down town.

    There is still no explaination though wherefore the canals in the city run east-west, as in High Towne/Newmarket, Old Quarters and more or less in courier (S/E). Anyone have a clue?

    BTW, I believe "undermarket" is City slang for "black market" and "underguild" is lingo for "organized crime" -- especially, crime organized by a guild of wardens, or by a guild working alongside (i.e., against or independent from) wardens.
    If you're right Grundbegriff you are really amazing. Better detective work cannot be done. Bravo!

    Last question, what does caveat lector mean?
    -------------------------
    - Beware of the thiefsie lord...

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