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Thread: Mapping out The City.

  1. #151
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: England

    Since this has been brought back up I must swallow my pride and admit that, yes, water crystals may well form in urinals!

    The reason for this is, as I heriocally dashed through the last levels of Thief Gold, my eye was drawn to a fire arrow, in a fire. A fire that was a burning hammerite banner. Since it must have been fairly recent, the crystal must have formed mighty fast, and no enemies in that area were using fire arrows. So, if fire arrows can form that fast, I geuss water crystals can as well...

    Maybe then, we could try and form a final picture and see if anyone is willing to create a decent map? My RPG guides are coming along well, and a map would be an excellent addition to the material.

    I can draw, but I usually do character portriats rather than maps, and I don't use nice glossy computer graphic programs...
    I bet the Baron gets to eat cow all the time. Not potato, potato, potato... - Disgruntled Guard

  2. #152
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2000
    Location: Boston

    that would be a urine crystal then, not a water crystal

  3. #153

    Originally posted by vesuvius:
    that would be a urine crystal then, not a water crystal
    Also known as a pysstal.

  4. #154

    Originally posted by Dr_Octogon:
    The one thing most people agree on here is that crystals form in standing water, like a lake, puddle etc. Then if that’s true wouldn't plenty sources of water be pure naturally, anyway? The waterworks in "song of the caverns" collected its water from the underground lake with water crystals already growing in it. Wouldn't the water already be pure then? The point is, if the waters already pure, why bother purifying it again? Perhaps because the pipes aren't too clean, but isn't that a pretty expensive luxury, purifying your water twice? For example I don't think the police budget would cover something that’s not even completely necessary.

    Also, why are there water crystals in puddles? They can't have been there for more than a week possibly two, and if they're so valuable then why hasn't anyone bothered to take it over that period (unless it only formed very recently).

    But, yeah, um. Mapping! Yes!
    I resolved to stay out of this argument a while back, as I always seemed to get burnt, but I felt this deserved a reply.

    Assuming for a minute that water crystals do purify the water, I can only see them as having a limited radius. Arguable, but realistic. Agreed? As a result, I can't see them purifying a whole lake, unless convection caused water to be continually moved across the crystals. Besides which, purifying the whole lake is not cost effective - it would quickly become contaminated, and no-one needs a whole lake of pure water.

    As a result, I think that the crystals are in the lake for another reason, or due to another cause. The essential argument here - as it seems to me - is whether the crystals are cause or effect. Having listened to the arguments presented, I'm inclined to believe in a mixture of the two viewpoints.

    Grundebegriff has persuasively argued that the crystals form naturally, and I'm inclined to agree with him. As I see it, they form in too unusual places e.g. deserted pools for them to be artificially placed there. However, I don't think that they form everywhere - I believe that they only form in large bodies of water, such as pools. Why? No idea - perhaps a combination of higher water pressure and volume that aids, or causes, the natural magic that makes water crystalise. Same with fire crystals - I've never seen them in the small flames of candles and torches, but only in large fires.

    However, the fact that water crystals are also prevalent in artificial, domestic sources of water e.g. sinks, basins, etc causes me to think that they also have a common, domestic purpose. I'm inclined to think that it's to do with the purification, cleaning, regulation or flavouring of water. Admittedly a broad list, but without further data its impossible to narrow it down further.

    The fact that the Blackbrook Underguild are - illegally - importing elemental crystals into the City is a piece of canon that disrupts the theory of both sides of the argument. If crystals are so prevalent, why is the Underguild - presumably a criminal organisation - importing them for a profit? Indeed, Ramirez says that the crystals are importables, implying that they're a recognised resource.

    The simplest explanation [I think] might be that the crystals from Blackbrook are a better quality, and that the City has banned them to promote the purchase of 'home-grown' crystals. Perhaps the noble households that want the better quality crystals have contacts with the Wardens that allow them to be provided with the better quality ones - for a fee. Of course, that begs the question of why the City is regulating trade when anyone can just get a large source of water
    and make water crystals. Perhaps it's just that the major sources of crystals are under control - after all, Garrett tends to find them in pretty unexploitable situations.

    Maybe the City is just imposing economic sanctions on Blackbrook, who they're at war with [is that right? I can't remember if it's canon]. That would make sense. The City bans the profitable import of higher-quality crystals into the City deny Blackbrook a source of income. The nobility want their better crystals, and are prepared to deal for them on the shadow economy - the black market that the Wardens provide.

    As to why the City forms poor-quality crystals - no idea. Perhaps - to go out on a limb here - the presence of the Eye/Trickster affects it? Certainly elemental crystals are tied in with him - note the Maw and the portal from his world etc etc

    Anyway, that's my 0.02. Feel free to knock down as much as you want.

    Sneaksie Thiefsie
    Sneaksie the Thiefsie, with manfoolsie fight
    A manfool, a trickster, a bringer of night

  5. #155
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Helsinki, Finland



    This is my version of Grund's and Naug's map. I have added some well known places, second part of the river, and some other nice stuff.

    And here's my explains of location and so:

    Haunted part of the city, well I think that the Olde Quarter was the first part of the city before the catastroph happened about fifty years ago. Survivors of the accident (led by former Baron I think) walled the haunted section of Olde Quarter.

    Mechanists seminery, is the old Hammerite cathedral. I think that Mechanists came and cleaned the cathedral area from all undead and when the Eastport was build, the seminery was joint to Eastport.

    Garret's home in T1, everybody should know this.

    Lost city entrance, check your map in mission: The Lost City

    Angelwatch, it's in Dayport but my location for it is just a guess.

    Rampone docks, you can see the lower mountains in mission Shipping and receiving just next to Davidsons ship.

    Garrets hideout, well it's in Shalebridge like he said.

    Ramirez mansion, in mission Assasins, look to your map and you'll see that the mansion is in High Towne near to the New Market.

    Garrets home in T2, I think that it was in New Quarter because Garrett probably had a lot of money so he could bought a nice apartment from New Quarter which I think was a middle class part of the city.

    Lord Bram G's mansion, he is very rich man and High Towne is for rich people. Look at the buildings near Bram's mansion and look at buildings near First City Bank, yes they look like same, so thats why I think that the Bank is also in High Towne.

    Hammerite Temple, look the Keepers map in THC.

    Mechanists Cathedral, well their cathedral is quite new I think, and New Quarter can also be quite new part of the town. And the industrial zone near cathedral, well mechanists make all fancy gears and stuff that industry needs so their main factory could also be in cathedral.

    Shoalsgate station, just a wild guess.

    Old city walls, these can be found in THCs map.

    And why is there a second river? Look the Keepers map again and thee shal see that there's somthing like a river in left corner of the map. The north mountains, Hammers old cathedral is near those mountains and so is the Olde Quarter. I think that the city was once a mining city and miners and Hammers lived in Olde Quarter, every place needed a religious place so the Hammers build their mighty cathedral.

    Everything you can see in the map is just my imagination (+of course Grund's and Naugs work ). And please say your opinion about that map.

  6. #156
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Helsinki, Finland

    if the map picture isn't workin go to my site

  7. #157

    Looking good, very good indeed. It looks very disorganised and random, which is exactly how it should be. Medieval cities [and the City is Medieval in architecture] developed organically and randomly as the need arose.

    Just one point to make - why have you situated Shoalsgate Station in the centre of the South Quarter, in the centre of the City? The 'shoals' seems to imply that it is in or near an area such as a port, probably where fish were landed, or close to an area where they were fished. The 'gate' seems to imply it's part of a wall. Such a wall would likely enclose a new quarter or some other identifiable zone, rather than run through a district in an arbitary fashion.

    Bearing that in mind, it seems to me that a better place for the station might be somewhere in Dayport, probably near the Western river. A place where fishing ships would bring the fish while the place was still a port, and where the station would be constructed to control the unsavoury elements until the area was gentrified. Further, it is possible that a wall, sea wall or other such construction could have been built to guard the channel from enemies or bad weather, creating a need for a gate at that location; thus, Shoalsgate.

    Just my 0.02. And keep up the good work!

    Sneaksie Thiefsie
    Sneaksie the Thiefsie, with manfoolsie fight
    A manfool, a trickster, a bringer of night

  8. #158
    Member
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Westland, MI

    Regarding the water crystal controversy: here's something to think about: air crystals give off vapors, and fire crystals give off light. Perhaps those water crystals found lying in puddles of water in the street were somehow lost, and are "leaking" water. In other words, maybe the puddle is not the cause of the crystal, but an effect of it.

    Really, I don't see where Grundbegriff's and CyberFish's/Silencer's views have to come into conflict. I agree with Grundy that elemental crystals probably form naturally. But I also see merit in the economic arguments that have been advanced. To paraphrase some famous author (whose name I don't remember) "If gold were as plentiful as dirt, and anyone could reach down and scoop up a handful, then gold would be no more valuable than dirt." Water crystals may form naturally, but they don't form overnight in every bathtub or puddle. If they did, then Garrett would not have to pay fifty Loot for a single crystal; he could walk into any store and pick up a six-pack of water crystals for a copper coin or two, and then go home and chug a few before his mission

    (BTW: In the spirit of "assume it's like its real-world counterpart, unless we know otherwise," I'm assuming that 1 Loot is approximately equal to 1 U.S. dollar)

    This about it like this: zombies seem to occurr naturally, but that doesn't mean that you can expect every corpse to become undead. For whatever reason, only some of them do this. Similarly, every bucket of water doesn't form a water crystal, it's more rare than that.

    I agree that water ctystals must have some domestic use if so many people store them. Certainly the entire City doesn't use them to douse torches so they can sneak past guards? Consider the water arrow's other known use: it cleans up bloodstains. Even if the bloodstain is on a carpet, and there's nowhere for the blood to be washed into (such as a drain or sewer grate), that blood is gone without a trace every time. Is it really that unreasonable to figure that water crystals possess some kind of special cleaning/purifying power?

    My opinion is that water crystals occurr naturally, but that they are an uncommon occurance, or else one that takes some amount of time to form. They have a widespread use(s) among the people of the City, and are collected and sold for this(these) purpose(s). We don't know for sure what these uses are, but uses along the lines of cleaning/purifying and transporting/storing water would appear to fit in with the water crystals' known properties.
    SPCB Member

    Official Funds Collector and True Lord of the Dance.

  9. #159
    Member
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Westland, MI

    Whoops, I forgot that we were supposed to be mapping out The City .

    About the Bonehoard, I think that it might be outside of the City. It certainly seems to be in an unpopulated area without other people around. I tend to imagine this huge cemetery just outside of the City walls, with the Bonehoard underneath it. It's possible that the Bonehoard might be in the Old Quarter, but we see no sign of it when Garrett goes in after the Eye.

    About the Mages' Towers (in Thief Gold): a note somewhere says that the towers' sewers run "all the way to the City." Obviously, then, the Mages' Towers are outside of the City. They can't be more than a few miles outside of the City walls, however, or else they couldn't have a sewer connection.

    Overall, I imagine that the mountains (and thus Cragscleft and other mines) are to the north of the City. The river flows out of the mountains, through the City and into the sea. Yes, I think that that little creek that flowed though the Old Quarter was supposed to be the river. It only looks like a little canal because of the drought Forrests approach the City on at least one side (the point about the Mechanists' war party was a good one). I must imagine that vast tracts of farm land are also nearby. Where do you think the Citizens get all of those apples, cucumbers, carrots, and loaves of bread? Given how many deer legs are seen, I would speculate that maybe deer have been domesticated, akin to how we have domesticated cattle.
    SPCB Member

    Official Funds Collector and True Lord of the Dance.

  10. #160

    Originally posted by Diceman:
    Yes, I think that that little creek that flowed though the Old Quarter was supposed to be the river. It only looks like a little canal because of the drought.
    Assuming that to be the case, one dreads to think what would happen when the river is in full flow. IIRC, the walls are only about a foot higher than river itself. If the drought were to end, the river would burst its banks, and flood the entire area. Besides, if it were a river then there would be movement in the water - in THC, it's stagnant.

    I think that a more likely explanation is that it's an open sewer, which was perhaps formerly covered with planks. If we wish to continue the river theory, then perhaps the original river was built over and used as a sewer, which has then become blocked due to the years of neglect in that area of the City.

    Originally posted by Diceman:
    Where do you think the Citizens get all of those apples, cucumbers, carrots, and loaves of bread? Given how many deer legs are seen, I would speculate that maybe deer have been domesticated, akin to how we have domesticated cattle.
    I can't think of much canon that either refutes or confirms this. However, in Undercover the Hammers say that the Baron "means to raise the tarriffs again, even on greens and meat". To me, this seems to imply that the City has no grazing land for cattle/deer/sheep/etc, and likewise no land suitable for arable crops. This is odd, considering its position at a river delta [presumably with fertile alluvium deposits] but the City probably expanded and took over such land. The fact that the City is importing basic foodstuffs, implies, I think, that they cannot grow their own. Admittedly, the "greens and meats" might be luxury items, but why then would Hammers be discussing them?

    Sneaksie Thiefsie
    Sneaksie the Thiefsie, with manfoolsie fight
    A manfool, a trickster, a bringer of night

  11. #161
    Member
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Westland, MI

    I think my idea about the mountains being north of the City must be wrong. I forgot what the guard in S&R said about Angelwatch blocking his view of the mountains and the sunrise. The mountains must be east of the City (assuming that the sun in Garrett's world behaves like our sun does). Still, I think that the river probably flows out of the mountains north of the City, and then turns south to flow through the City and into the ocean.

    As for the river flowing through the Old Quarter. Maybe it is just a sewer or a canal, but we might have to write off this whole "size of the river" problem as an oversight in continuity. Maybe the idea of a drought in the region was thought up after the levels were created, and it was decided that it wasn't an important enough plot point to warrant redesigning every level that showed the river. The drought certainly doesn't seem to affect the story or gameplay in any way. In other words, maybe the river that we see in the game is supposed to be the river in its normal state.

    As for food being imported into the City, and the tarriffs; the fact that there is a tarriff on food entering the City doesn't mean that the food comes from very far away. The import duties are almost certainly collected when the merchants pass through the City gates; like modern-day border crossings, they'd be a major bottleneck and the perfect point for collecting tarriffs and duties. There could be an apple orchard right outside the City walls, but if the farmer wanted to bring his apples into the City, he'd have to pay the fees.

    Also consider the nature of food, specifically in regards to spoilage. Fresh food doesn't store or transport well. Indeed, sailors never had fresh fruit or vegetables on their ships because they would spoil too quickly. There's no evidence that the Citizens have artificial preservatives to extend the shelf life of food, and they don't even seem to have canning technology (keeping food in metal tins is not the same as canning it; not by a long shot). The Mechanists have a freezer on Markham's Isle, but this is the only one we've ever seen, so I'm inclined to believe that it's a new invention (either a Mechanist invention, or a Hammerite invention that they've copied). The sum of the evidence suggests that the food we see in the City wouldn't stay unspoiled very long, so the trip between farm and City must not be a long one.

    And what do you think about my idea that they might have domesticated deer as a source of meat? I mean, considering that deer legs are about as common in the City as steaks are in America...
    SPCB Member

    Official Funds Collector and True Lord of the Dance.

  12. #162
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Yorkshire, UK

    Originally posted by Diceman:
    I think my idea about the mountains being north of the City must be wrong. I forgot what the guard in S&R said about Angelwatch blocking his view of the mountains and the sunrise. The mountains must be east of the City

    Hmmm, as I pointed out earlier in this topic

    On the matter of the Bonehoard - it clearly isn't in the Old Quarter, since The Haunted Cathedral mission is Garrett's first visit there. I think it's probably in a very remote area, but not that far from the City, maybe 25-50 miles because of the familiar way Cutty mentions it in. Of course it could be a long way away, just famed for the undead and the Horn of Quintus.

    I hope the water crystal discussion has finished now
    Always Remember Rule One:
    Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men!
    --Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time

  13. #163
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ

    Fascinating thread you guys, very in depth. I myself am working on a map of the areas surrounding The City in order to help envision things better for a fanfic I'm working on. Just a couple of thoughts/questions...

    1) There's a way to explain the discrepancy of the sun rising in the West, which Potted's comment clued me in to. Now everyone knows that the sun appears to rise and set because of the counterclockwise rotation of the earth. But, as Potted pointed out, this isn't earth. Therefore, the conclusion is logical: the world in which Thief is set rotates clockwise on its axis.

    Now before you lay into me with astrophysics, let me back that statement up with some facts. In our solar system, every single planet and moon rotates counterclockwise... except for Venus. We're not quite sure why it does this, but Venus in fact rotates in a clockwise fashion. Thus, the sun rises in the West and sets in the East there. I believe this to be the case here as well. Interesting new facet of life in The City, isn't it?

    2) Where, pray tell, can I get one of those blank scrolls that the ingame maps/letters use? I'd like to slap my map on one of those for authenticity. On a similar note, where can I get one with text on it (so I can match the ink color)?

    3) Lastly, where can I get the font used ingame, again for authenticity? Soon as I finish with this, I'll send it to whomever would like it (TTLG, The Circle, KoMaG, etc). Note that I'm not saying it will be artistic mastery. I'm just saying it gives an interesting view at the turf outside of The City.
    Classic Thief map: latest iteration and explanation.

  14. #164

    "Pay careful attention to the moon, it could mean that the City is in the southern hemisphere, which may influence a few things."

    I think I read that the stars in the game are the actual stars seen from Earth as seen in winter at midnight at 42 degrees north.

    Actually I'm not sure about if it was north or not, but that can easilly be checked. Anyway, the 42 degrees latitude gives you some idea of the climate.

  15. #165
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: England

    Originally posted by Doc_Brown:

    2) Where, pray tell, can I get one of those blank scrolls that the ingame maps/letters use? I'd like to slap my map on one of those for authenticity. On a similar note, where can I get one with text on it (so I can match the ink color)?

    3) Lastly, where can I get the font used ingame, again for authenticity? Soon as I finish with this, I'll send it to whomever would like it (TTLG, The Circle, KoMaG, etc). Note that I'm not saying it will be artistic mastery. I'm just saying it gives an interesting view at the turf outside of The City.
    1) Look on the Thief discs and find files with 'CRF' as file types - open them in winzip and look for files marked 'book'

    2) Thief fonts can be found in The Circle's media archives, made by The Riddler. They're quite good, especially if you're using Paint Shop Pro and smoothing them off. You should smudge them just slightly (don't overdo it!!) for authenticity.
    I bet the Baron gets to eat cow all the time. Not potato, potato, potato... - Disgruntled Guard

  16. #166

    On the overflowing canal issue:

    As far as I recall, there weren't that many occasions where the water current was overly strong (ie. such that Garrett was unable to swim against the current). Now, from a purely physical standpoint, in normal (non-drought) conditions the very same channels which now hold relatively slow moving water could handle a far greater amount of water if the water moved faster through the channels. The City authorities may, as a result of the drought, have closed a number of the sluice gates which control the flow of water through the City's waterways. In normal circumstances these gates would be kept open, leading to a far swifter current without flooding.

    Just a theory of course, but it fits the available facts without any need for previously unseen rivers or underground tributaries etc...

  17. #167

    Question ... Since Raputo, as a warden, controls three districts, as does Ramirez ... which would you say is the most likely case?

    A) There are a dozen wardens, each controlling one or more districts, meaning that there are dozens of districts we do not know about.

    B) There are only a small handful of wardens (four or five) and we know about just about all districts.

    C) Some wardens control parts of districts, sharing it with others (possibly not so peacefully) ... there are dozens of wardens, and we know about just about all the districts

    Best answer is probably the one which leaves for the most variables and pen interpretation, but ... which?

  18. #168

    [quote]Originally posted by Digital Nightfall:
    Best answer is probably the one which leaves for the most variables and pen interpretation, but ... which?


    The theory I'm expounding in the Theses is the existence of two varieties of districts: Greater and Lesser Districts. Greater Districts are the large, powerful ones that are definite canon - examples are Hightowne, Old Quarter and South Quarter. Lesser Districts are small ones intended for the newly ennobled. They're small, feeble, and in thrall of the larger districts...and provide justification for the many other districts that have been created in fan works.

    My theory is that there are several [5-6] City Wardens who control the Greater Districts [or, rather, enough of the District to be considered the prime controller] with lesser criminals or guilds perhaps controlling the lesser districts. I'm not suggesting that the Wards match the districts exactly - rather that Rasputo controls a Ward that roughly matches the three districts.

    I like the idea of Wardens being in conflict over the occupation of certain districts...lots of potential for expansion on that theme. I tend to see the City Wardens as Mafia dons...part of a criminal fraternity in conflict with each other, but perhaps working together against the FBI/City Guard.

    Sneaksie Thiefsie
    Sneaksie the Thiefsie, with manfoolsie fight
    A manfool, a trickster, a bringer of night

  19. #169
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Yorkshire, UK

    I like the idea that the wardens are fighting over certain districts, and that they vary a lot in size (districts in any city do). I also think there are a LOT of districts that aren't mentioned in Thief, and we don't know about (yet). However, not all of these will be full of crime, eg. class divides, amount/skill of policing etc - but a lot probably are.

  20. #170

    [quote] Greater and Lesser Districts. Greater Districts are the large, powerful ones that are definite canon - examples are Hightowne, Old Quarter and South Quarter. Lesser Districts are small ones intended for the newly ennobled. They're small, feeble, and in thrall of the larger districts...and provide justification for the many other districts that have been created in fan works.



    Sounds good to me.

  21. #171

    Any of the canals in the City could have been large(r) rivers some time ago. There are parts of the world today that rise several meters each century due to the melting of glaciers that weighed down the land for centuries. So had the City once had a central river flowing through it and been situated in one such area, the land could have risen since then, the water diverted, and all that remains is a small canal.
    Had the area risen, over time more land along the coast would appear, and the City would expand into it. This would account for why the Old Quarter does not appear to be at the docks, where a settlement would likely appear first.
    In the course of only a (few) hundred years (a short time for a city the size of the City to develop), the land could easily have risen a few meters.
    Just a thought.

  22. #172
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Yorkshire, UK

    [quote]Originally posted by Karlfox:
    Any of the canals in the City could have been large(r) rivers some time ago. There are parts of the world today that rise several meters each century due to the melting of glaciers that weighed down the land for centuries. So had the City once had a central river flowing through it and been situated in one such area, the land could have risen since then, the water diverted, and all that remains is a small canal.
    Had the area risen, over time more land along the coast would appear, and the City would expand into it. This would account for why the Old Quarter does not appear to be at the docks, where a settlement would likely appear first.
    In the course of only a (few) hundred years (a short time for a city the size of the City to develop), the land could easily have risen a few meters.
    Just a thought.



    Canals are man-made, ie. not small rivers
    Also, Randy pointed out earlier in the topic that the city does have a large river running throught it.
    I don't think the old quarter was supposed to be the initial site of the City either.

  23. #173
    Administrator
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: above the clouds

    Having read the seven pages of the thread, I decided to have a go at constructing a map myself, based on the latest version by Wille (good stuff, by the way).
    I've been arranging the in-game maps and drawing over and around them, accounting for possible inaccuracies in the "sketch" maps. I tend to think of the Keepers' map in The Haunted Cathedral as the most accurate. You can actually superimpose the Assassins map quite comfortably on top, which brings up some issues of scale, mainly the relative sizes of Newmarket, HighTowne, The Olde Quarter and DownTowne - which pushes the other districts about, it seems.
    I'll try posting a version for criticism when it looks half presentable.

    [quote]Originally posted by Oliver Gregory:


    Canals are man-made, ie. not small rivers
    Also, Randy pointed out earlier in the topic that the city does have a large river running throught it.



    I don't think they were able to quite replicate large rivers in the game, so they kept to small flowing sections of water. It doesn't mean that the City isn't supposed to have a larger river running through. The way they appear in-game, canal-like waterways seem to be purpose-built conduits of the water supply, you'd think built by the Hammers some time ago (possibly).

    Although there is the question of this drought, which I don't know the background of. There seems to be plenty of water about to me.

    Another map coming soon, anyway.

  24. #174
    Administrator
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: above the clouds

    I'm not sure where to put the Downwinders! It's easy to put Donal and Rueben's places in relation to the Overlord's Fancy, but I haven't yet found evidence of its location. I put it in Shalebridge, for lack of anywhere better.

    The opera house probably sits on the Olde Quarter, no? The caverns are supposed to be directly underneath.

  25. #175
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2001
    Location: the s is for sucks

    Put my stuff on this map! On the edge of the city to the outer edge of dayport is where my FM takes place, and on the edge of Dayport there is a big new hotel.


    ~Cypher
    Friends don't let friends post stupid.
    =CLAN LARCENIO HAUL ~ "We haul assets"=

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