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Thread: Improving some low-quality original objects?

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Italy
    Quote Originally Posted by mopgoblin
    I don't like those grouped objects. You can't set them up so that they can be thrown around (as it would look ridiculous), so they always end up non-frobbable. Some of us like to throw bottles and things as distractions.
    Come on mopgoblin, it's just to save objects and to not make some places to look too "empty". Anyway, I promise to leave a single bottle for you in my next mission.

  2. #27
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: New Zealand
    Yeah, but a room without any frobbable objects feels empty, whether it has objects or not. Anything you can't interact with is really just scenery, and usually doesn't add very much to a room.

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Gloucester, UK
    Ah...
    I've been away for a week, so didn't see this thread.
    DARK METAL (DEDX2) is addressing this very issue. I've so far re-rendered nearly half of the old object textures, and applied most of the above improved models.

    As RSoul correctly points out, one problem is consistency between texture artists, but as editor of DM I've been forced at times to discard good work simply because it doesn't fit the style of the rest of the game.

    If anybody DOES make new skins for things, please send them on to me and I can try to include them in the project.

    Rob

  4. #29
    Member
    Registered: Jul 1999
    Location: Beta Grove
    Could you please supply us with a list of all objects that have been updated? We do not wish to do redundant work.

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: Vermont
    Or maybe just a list of them anyway.

  6. #31
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2003
    Location: Russia, Moscow
    I agree, also some FMs have high Poly aerea with original (low poly) Objects. Maybe some fms will crash if there were high poly objects or have slowdowns...
    I'm pretty sure, some of my old fms will do....
    As I note. very strange thing.. if you insert a high poly model after mis file complete, and just insert an file with object, no fps will down at slow machines like Celeron 400 too, but mission may be not editable.
    I wonder why nobody can make high poly Models? like in SystemShock2.

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Gloucester, UK
    List of things done...

    All banners, plaques and signs
    Crystals and arrows
    All lights (if you include the ones other people improved) and Streetlights
    Furniture (most of the T1G stuff)
    Doors (All of the T1G stuff)
    Numerous minor things (I remember doing apples one day, for example)

    Maybe more, but I'm not near my own PC today.

    Rob

  8. #33
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Okay, so perhaps some of this will be redundant. Still, I'm sure my apple is better...

    Things I've done so far...

    EDIT: This list was moved to the first post
    Last edited by Nameless_Voice; 3rd Jun 2005 at 20:36.

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Finland, Earth
    I don't think it really matters if there's 'redundancy'. After all, the fact that NV did some perfectly good crates didn't stop me from doing my own, just for the hell of it

    This all strikes me as being a little too organised, to be honest, and I'm concerned that the quality of models will suffer if they 'had to be done' as part of a concerted effort to revamp the original content, rather than if someone just felt like redoing some of the originals. There's a reason the SS2 Rebirth project ran out of steam, after all. But maybe that's just me.

    R Soul, you're right that my textures do change the tone, and I agree that the replacement lamp textures look out of place in a mansion setting like the one screenshotted - but I'd argue that the original lamps also looked out of place in the same setting, perhaps more so. Such settings really call for a NiceTorch or one of the mechanist wall lights.

  10. #35
    Member
    Registered: Aug 1999
    Location: terrible canyons of static
    Actually, I think The SS2 Rebirth mod collapsed (we're talking about the new AI models here, right?) because the author, Cyberblutch I recall, was hired by Arkane Studios. I think.

    Yeah.

  11. #36
    Member
    Registered: Jul 1999
    Location: Beta Grove
    The SS2 texture update project (SHTUP) is still being worked on; it has already replaced many of SS2's ultra-low-res textures with modern 256x256 ones. Many Thief objects would be easy and enjoyable to remake; if someone could work on AIs it will even be better.

  12. #37
    Member
    Registered: Jul 1999
    Location: Beta Grove
    The old-style potions are re-done; I've tried my best to maintain consistency with the previous shape/size.



    Get them here.

    Also, I've composed a list of Thief 2 models that I think as needing re-doing; banners, signs and most lights were excluded as they will be re-done by Rob Hicks' Dark Metal pack. Another list of textures that will require re-doing will be posted soon. Please go though the list and find out objects you've already re-done; later, we'll assign the work between us depending on expertise.

    EDIT: Rings are ready as well.



    Get the rings here.

    EDIT #2: Rob Hicks, you have my permission (and encouragement) to use any or all of my models in Dark Metal, including the ones in this thread.
    Last edited by G'len; 3rd Jun 2005 at 17:14.

  13. #38
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Formby, NW England
    16 seems a bit high for such small objects

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Finland, Earth
    I stand correct'd, Spitter. That'll teach me to make assumptions about the death of community projects.

    16 sides to a cylinder for something the size of a ring seems a little high to me also, TBH. These objects are miniscule after all - even though Thief 2 won't crash with too many object polygons (at least not as far as anyone can determine), that doesn't mean it's not important to be conservative and use polys where they count.

  15. #40

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: Jul 1999
    Location: Beta Grove
    Ok, reduced ring poligons:
    - Standard Ring: 50 poligons.
    - Ramirez Signet Ring: 85 poligons.
    - Two Rings (OM #1 bonus objective): 100 poligons.
    - Gem ring: 91 poligons.

    I've also enhanced the gem texture (used in other models as well) and the Signet Ring texture.

    Files have been re-uploaded so that my previous post contains the updated ring models and their screenshot.

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: Jul 1999
    Location: Beta Grove
    Jars are ready (though they might need a few more texture tweaks).



    Get them here.

  18. #43
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Okay, I've updated the list of objects I've made in the first post.
    (Ooops, looks like I wasn't the only one to make new potion models...)

    Quote Originally Posted by R Soul
    They use the original textures.
    That's sort of the problem. The objects themselves aren't usually that bad - the main problem is the textures. The ones on the turbines aren't that bad (a bit clean maybe) but some of the others really need replacing.
    It's the same with those rings G'len made; the extra polys make them look better, but the low-res 'gold' texture lets them down.

    Quote Originally Posted by G'len
    So let's make a list of what's need to be done, a list of slav-- err, volunteers, and devide the work.
    Divide the work?
    Okay, here are two positions if anyone wants them.
    The pay is zero (insert appropriate currency here) per hour.

    Machinery:
    Basically, everything under Gizmo (-228) except for all the Switches, the Victrola, and the Telescope. I plan to do those myself. Oh, and there are enough pipes floating around for the moment.
    There are a few other things that fall under this category, too. Most of the lifts, MechTower (-5042), ToolBox (-5946), HagenEvidence (-3216), MechDrill (-3261), and all those gadgets and machine parts that are under EndGame (-3115).

    Statues:
    With the exception of the Mechanist angel all the statues are truly awful. Anyone want to try their hand at improving some of them?


    Remember that the dimensions of the new objects have to be as near to those of the originals as possible, so as not to have anything floating above (or under) the ground, etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eshaktaar
    ...the resulting mishmash will most likely look totally wrong (wrongly textured AIs/objects, resized furniture that doesn't fit, etc.).
    I can see what you're saying, but I don't really see what to do about it. I guess someone could check through the FMs for problems where improved models no longer use the textures that were modified by the FM, and try to come up with a workaround. In any case, it can always be used when playing the OMs.
    As for resized furniture that doesn't fit, since I'm building all the new models very closely around the dimensions of the old ones, that's unlikely to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by G'len
    By the way, do doors work well when they're a complex object rather than a box with a texture and a handle?
    They seem to. * Glances at the new reinforced wooden door *

    Quote Originally Posted by R Soul
    The problem with Vigil's textures is that they change the style of the texture.
    Even with the old blurry texture, those lights didn't really fit in expensive homes. They're too rusty. Anyway, I don't really find them out of place.

  19. #44
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Drinking baby lemonade!
    I'm too busy to contribute much to this effort, but I'd like to point out that Targa also did some nice new pews... haven't seen them mentioned yet.

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: Jul 1999
    Location: Beta Grove
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless_Voice
    It's the same with those rings G'len made; the extra polys make them look better, but the low-res 'gold' texture lets them down.
    Textures aren't exactly my thing; I'd appreciate help on this subject. That said, I really like my upgraded gem texture.

    Also, there are several other models in acute need of re-modelling, such as the bucket, pail, most loot items and the Hammerite altar.

    EDIT:
    A new gemstone is ready:



    Get it here.

    And also a bucket:



    Get it here.

    EDIT: I apologize for doing things that Nameless_Voice intended to do; I've made these models before reading his updated post.

    So, here's my own to-do list:
    - Water Tank
    - Shower Head
    - Wires (do they need an updated texture? or just better poly models?)
    - Alarm Sound Box
    - Alchemical Mix (? mechanist jar)
    - Bank Basement Window
    - Barber Pole
    - Bedroll
    - Bunsen Burners
    - Carts
    - Censor Light
    - Chains
    - Crank
    - Decanter
    - Dpump
    - Mine, Gas Mine and SunBurst Device
    - Fan (my specialty )
    - Square and round Grates
    - Locker Door
    - Mortar and Pestel (sp?)
    - Pumps
    - Stocks
    - Torture Rack
    Last edited by G'len; 4th Jun 2005 at 06:02.

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Does anyone have a very good candle wax texture? The original Thief one is complete rubbish, and I can't think of any candles to photograph at the moment. It should preferably be the long, yellowish-white runny kind that you see in films. (Wanders off to look on Google Images)

    All this mention of SSHTUP reminds me that I was supposed to be making them some new egg models, which I sort of forgot about after trying to make one for a while and not being able to get it to look good enough. I must have another go...

    R Soul: After looking at your turbines a bit closer, I have to say that they're a great improvement, but they really need new textures.
    Basically, anything that uses textures from txt instead of txt16 will never look good, no matter how well modelled it is.
    Wait a minute, didn't The Watcher once make an improved turbine texture?

    G'len: Well, I think my improved potions look better than yours, but a) the poly count is much higher and b) although they are the same basic colour and size, their shape is significantly different (I made them look a bit more like bottles). I'm not sure if I'll keep them or not...
    That's okay with the bucket; I hadn't done that one yet.
    I have made an alternate gemstone though. More pointy, and I managed to get it to look more realistic by having multiple transparent layers. I'm not completely happy with the texture, though. Maybe I'll use yours, but in fact I'd prefer to get a 256x256 image of some real gemstones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigil
    After all, the fact that NV did some perfectly good crates didn't stop me from doing my own, just for the hell of it
    I'd not sure about 'perfectly good'; the wood on those crates is much too clean and new! Your battered and rotten ones look much more realistic. I prefer my crate models with the diagonal bar, though.
    I'll have to see about making some better textures.

    Oh, and that reminds me. The dimensions of your custom crate models are much smaller than those of the original models, leaving your crates floating above the ground more often than not. The proper dimensions are approx 2.00x2.00x2.25.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigil
    This all strikes me as being a little too organised, to be honest
    Well, it isn't really. I just thought I'd revamp some of the worst orignal objects, and am currently getting a little carried away.
    Anyway, if lower-that-best-quality models are created, we can always go over them again later when we realise they are below par with everything else.

    BTW Vigil, may I use some of your objects/textures in this package?

    Some screenshots:


    Before.


    After.

    [Edit:] Brightened up the screenshots a bit
    Last edited by Nameless_Voice; 4th Jun 2005 at 20:12.

  22. #47
    Member
    Registered: Jul 1999
    Location: Beta Grove
    My first attemp at the Tank failed miserably; I'll have to re-do it next weekend .

    Amd Nameless Voice, your objects look good - I only hope that their poly-count is good as well.

  23. #48
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Finland, Earth
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless_Voice
    Does anyone have a very good candle wax texture? The original Thief one is complete rubbish, and I can't think of any candles to photograph at the moment. It should preferably be the long, yellowish-white runny kind that you see in films. (Wanders off to look on Google Images)
    Actually, I have a pretty good hand-drawn candle texture, as I got started on redoing the candles/candlesticks a while ago. I also started playing around with a static TGA flame for candles which I think looks very nice (built into the candle mesh, not a particle flame - intended to be twitched around subtly with ModelTweq, like the torches).

    I didn't get around to finishing them because I got bored and frustrated trying to do a twisted wrought-iron candlestick object which refused to look right (the skin was too shiny, or too dull, or too dark, or too light, or too brown, or too blue...). I suppose this is a reasonable excuse to finish them off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless_Voice
    Basically, anything that uses textures from txt instead of txt16 will never look good, no matter how well modelled it is.
    I'd go one step further than that, and say that anything that uses textures from txt16 is highly unlikely to look good either The exception to this being the victorian textures, which were pulled off very well in the original.
    Also a reminder, the Thief 1 palette (used by the /txt/ textures) is actually very good, and should be used as often as possible in your own skins.

    I'd not sure about 'perfectly good'; the wood on those crates is much too clean and new! Your battered and rotten ones look much more realistic. I prefer my crate models with the diagonal bar, though.
    I agree with you about the diagonal bar actually - the reason I didn't put one in was because I didn't want to look like I was trying to replace your crates completely

    I seem to remember I made my crate models 2x2x2, because I wasn't aiming to make them a drop-in replacement at the time - they were only meant to be FM-author addins, and thus I didn't consider the dimensions had to match exactly. Which turned out to be a pretty silly approach.

    If you prefer the texture I did, then you could always slap it onto your crate model for this project (though not for the versions on your site).

    BTW Vigil, may I use some of your objects/textures in this package?
    Of course! You're quite welcome to them, as long as the terms of use are respected (i.e., LINK MEH )

    However, I'll likely continue making replacement objects and skins from time to time, which are bound to overlap with what other people are doing for this project. You'd be welcome to those too, if they're an improvement, but I'm not concerned about overlap in any other respect, or what's on the agenda for redoing.
    It's not that I don't like what you and other modellers produce, as there is some really good stuff out there already (though I do have rather strong opinions about how ineffective remodelling is without reskinning) - it's just that I like working on my own stuff regardless of what else is out there.

  24. #49
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless_Voice
    Some screenshots:
    That new coin stack texture looks worse, IMHO. The original Thief texture is closer to what real-world coin stacks actually look like.


  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Finland, Earth

    Suggestions (or nitpicks, rather):

    I agree with Zylonbane's assessment of the coinstacks. There's too much of a border in between each coin, as if the coins were curved rather than flat. Also, there's not enough vertical variation in the texture (I presume because it's a single coin repeated vertically a dozen times) - If you did the whole side as one non-repeated texture, with little offsets to the coins and differences in the shine, like in the original version, would make it look more convincing.

    I think the new pouch skin is too smooth - it could really do with more folds like the original. Also, since the purse is generally found on its side, how about making the model sag rather than having the neck come straight out? That was something that always bugged me about the original.

    While the new winebottles are a big improvement, why not darken the regular wine bottle to match the same tone as the original, so that it will be less easy to confuse it with the finewine?

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