The Dark Mod FM contest insights?

[nbohr1more]

(I apologize if this topic has been broached too many times elsewhere.)

I am posting here to find out if there is anything that would motivate veteran Dromed mappers (or TTLG (etc) mappers in general ) to participate in a mission contest for The Dark Mod.

Some generic ideas that spring forth:

1) Recognition at the Moddb and TDM sites?
2) Prizes (games, t-shirt, mug, Thief collector items, money?)
3) Mod team membership?

Please post any demand that would plausibly get you or any mapper you know to
participate in a TDM contest.


Thanks,

nbohr1more

[demagogue]

I've been playing around with LiveStream lately and I had an idea. It might be cool to pick some weekend and have a community mapping day, or do it over a few days ... Like a veteran Dark Modder puts up a live stream running through the tutorial, or a quick version of it, and newbies could go to the site any time they want to watch & follow along. It's a very user friendly way of getting new builders up to speed, and if they have any questions getting set up or in the tutorial, they can ask directly over the chat.

And then maybe they could even collaborate to make a quick crash chain project where everyone makes like a room for a mansion, then at the end someone can stitch them together... just something fun to do while they're all on together. And again people can just ask right there if they have a question.

Or maybe that's a dumb idea lol. Always something to be said for a good old fashioned 3-month contest too.

[nbohr1more]

Those are good ideas too.

I'm looking at this from the POV of "there are many talented mappers out there who may have the aptitude to do a TDM mission but aren't motivated simply by the existence of TDM itself".

Perhaps someone on the fence who just needs a nudge to jump-in.

[Shadowhide]

@nbohr1more:
Darkfate have some TDM players,so you can get yourself an account and ask there too,if you want

[nbohr1more]

Sorry for the delay.

I've been thinking about signing-up at Darkfate for a long time now but I don't think the login or registration tools work when viewed through google translate.

(I presume that you aren't using any translation software when visiting English forums?)

I'll look at this again shortly...

[Briareos H]

This thread is depressing. So, Thief FM authors who post here are not motivated at all by The Dark Mod?

[Shadowhide]

Sorry for the delay.

I've been thinking about signing-up at Darkfate for a long time now but I don't think the login or registration tools work when viewed through google translate.

(I presume that you aren't using any translation software when visiting English forums?)

I'll look at this again shortly...

here is the quick guide :
while you at the forum click here :



than you have to agreed with registration agreement



than you have to choose yourself a name,write down your email adress,choose password and resolve a little captcha

and yeah,i am not using any translation software for English forums

[nbohr1more]

Thanks ShadowHide.

I'll try that when I get some PC time at home.

...

Yes, this is a little alarming. I'm not even asking folks to participate, I'm asking what people think would "potentially" motivate them. Even non-mappers (peanut gallery) are free to conjecture here.

TDM won't bite you folks.

[demagogue]

This thread is depressing. So, Thief FM authors who post here are not motivated at all by The Dark Mod?

People should feel free to build on whatever they want & makes the happy. But it's worth pointing out that building on Dark Radiant after building on Dromed for a long time is like a dream, it's such a wonderful editor to build on, and of course you can push 10K's of polys and dromed can only handle 1000 max.

But anyway TDM isn't going anywhere, so it'll always be around if anyone wants to give it a try. Personally I like building in DR & Dromed and going back and forth as my mood strikes me. It's not like you have to be married to one & never build on the other again, if that's what some people were thinking.

[Brethren]

Thief FM authors who post here are not motivated at all by The Dark Mod?

One suggestion might be to post over at the Editor's Guild instead. You'd be surprised how many authors hang out over there exclusively (or nearly so).

[Briareos H]

True, I thought it was already in the editor's guild. nbohr1more, what do you think?

[demagogue]

Might be good for a former big Dromeder now Darkmodding to make the post, Schwaa/Baddcog or Melan or Fidcal, etc, to send the message it's not like this radical new thing, and that people that like Dromed like DR too. And whoever did it should word it well so it doesn't look like it's too off topic and have people wondering what's a TDM thread doing in TEG of all places... Like this is an invitation specifically for you TEG guys just to give it a look...

[jay pettitt]

Obviously I'm not the intended audience as I've never experimented with Dromed let alone released anything.

But I'm gonna postulate that some of the fundamentals in TDM are somewhat missing. There's no characterization, existing game world, narrative or fiction to jump onto the back of like there is with the Thief universe. There's not obviously a new audience. There aren't cool new gadgets. And given that modern T2 FMs often look gorgeous - are higher poly counts (countered perhaps by lower light counts) and real time shadows a compelling reason to learn a whole new editor?

Don't get me wrong - I think there are very good reasons for TDM to exist - the potential for a free, open, cross platform, standalone vehicle for Fan Missions that's in continuous revision and development is an idea that should induce multiple orgasms.

But there are some big gaps too.

Being able to build a robust mission in a fraction of the time might be a clincher. Producing a quality FM is hell of an undertaking.

[demagogue]

If you like stealth gaming and curious about mapping, or just curious about being a fan, then you're our intended audience.

There's a lot of characterization, game world, narrative, already developed... The city of Bridgeport, the Empire, the holy city of Sancta Civitas, many of the surrounding towns, we have an Archbishop of Bridgeport & Lord Mayor & Patriarch & Emperor, we have the neighboring Menoan Empire, we have the mysterious Inventors Guild, the necromancers society, the nobility, we have a growing map of the city and the world, the city wards & their corrupt leadership and crime lords... We have a number of protagonists developed in FMs a mapper can choose from, or they could develop their own. We have a campaign in the works to package a lot of this, and provide the best developed protagonist.

It's all there, so it's not a good excuse by itself. It just takes mappers tapping into the fiction wiki & narrative threads from the FMs to find their own inspirations and add their own contributions to this rich world we're building here.

Edit:

There aren't cool new gadgets. And given that modern T2 FMs often look gorgeous - are higher poly counts (countered perhaps by lower light counts) and real time shadows a compelling reason to learn a whole new editor?

The answer to this is of course for a person to play it and see for themselves. The invitation here is to at least give it a shot and see what you think. Don't just assume based on the abstract, but get your feet wet with the concrete and then decide...

As for some of the things you mentioned ... It wouldn't be good with too many cool new gizmos because then it'd be to leet & gamey... Much of the point was exactly to keep the classic feel of T2 that TDS tossed out... but things like mantling, sword fighting, and AI intelligence are a LOT more highly developed in TDM. It's a more controllable & challenging stealth game.

When you say "higher poly count", I mean we're talking about the difference between totals for a scene pushing "1000 max" vs "1 million" polys so... that's nothing to sneeze at. Lower light counts? I wouldn't say that, with good portaling you could have a good half dozen lights or more in a scene; if you turn off realtime shadows you could push as many lights as you want. It's open source so it's going to keep getting updated indefinitely. The editor is awesome & a dream to work with compared to dromed, so learning it is a pleasure IMO.

But also I think maybe your questions are missing the idea... TDM was never meant to replace T2, and it was always expected T2 FMs would still be made. The point of TDM is to continue T2 style stealth gaming into a modern engine, where TDS & very likely T4 have pretty much abandoned even trying. It's meant to replace T3 and T4. I think that's the attitude people should take towards it.

[jay pettitt]

It's kinda not the same though. With Thief you can play the existing game and get excited about the characters and places and factions and think - yeah I'd like to play with making some of this stuff. (and the material is good too, some of the strongest characters and narrative elements in video gaming)

With TDM there's some stuff sketched out on a wiki and a few FMs that don't really relate to each other very well. It hasn't really all come to life yet.

[Brethren]

There's a lot of characterization, game world, narrative, already developed...
It's all there, so it's not a good excuse by itself.

I think what Jay is referring to is something that players are already familiar with.

Edit: looks like I waited too long to post, jay beat me to it.

[demagogue]

I understand what you're saying of course. Hmm... Maybe the response to give here on the narrative. It's not like this is some story out there that's spoon fed to us. This is our narrative, our world. No faceless company made this world to make money off of you. We, Thief fans & TTLG regulars, made this for ourselves. We, TTLGers, spent more than 5 years of our blood sweat & tears making this, for no other payoff than our total love for stealth gaming and the legacy of LGS and as a gift to our beloved community to continue stealth gaming into the next tech generations, and it's our privilege and responsibility as mappers to build this world and give it life and bring that inspiration to players that you're talking about. That problem you mention is an invitation. We need you.

Edit: Yes, it's a new and scary thing for mappers to do something for themselves and not be spoonfed by corporate greed, but we can do it! The video game industry has abandoned us. But we can bring this world to life ourselves and be more inspirational than they can hope to imagine. Look at our FMs and tell me we don't have more imagination & inspiration than most any games coming out. LGS had this spirit with T1 and T2, where they were more interested in inspiring us than making money off us, and the industry suffocated them for it, and we lost much of that for T3 and I bet T4. Again, TDM isn't meant to replace T2, but T3 and T4 to keep T2's spirit in a contemp open source engine. It's time to take the legacy of LGS into our own hands where they can't suffocate us! It's a love letter to T2, not a flaunt. That's what TDM represents. This is our world now. We own it; no one else.

Edit2: heh, had to wax a little poetic there. Feel free to take with an iceberg of salt.

Being able to build a robust mission in a fraction of the time might be a clincher. Producing a quality FM is hell of an undertaking.

Yes there are more simply prudent reasons someone might want to build for TDM too, without even caring about drinking the kool-aide. It's just quite easy to build a quality FM with good gameplay and kick it out quickly and efficiently. That's probably it's biggest selling point aside from the story or characters or motivation or anything. So if that's what you care about, that's something to note.

[Melan]

I understand what you're saying of course. Hmm... Maybe the response to give here on the narrative. It's not like this is some story out there that's spoon fed to us. This is our narrative, our world. No faceless company made this world to make money off of you. We, Thief fans & TTLG regulars, made this for ourselves. We, TTLGers, spent more than 5 years of our blood sweat & tears making this, for no other payoff than our total love for stealth gaming and the legacy of LGS and as a gift to our beloved community to continue stealth gaming into the next tech generations, and it's our privilege and responsibility as mappers to build this world and give it life and bring that inspiration to players that you're talking about. It's an invitation. We need you.

I think that captures something essential about my views on TDM. It is the TTLG game, and an embodiment of what this community has been interested in. It is a respectful update of Thief - in THI4F threads, we often read things like "I really hope there will be no third-person takedowns" or "I hope there will be swimmable water and rope arrows" - and well, TDM is something that fulfils those wishes. It doesn't have to cater to whatever marketers think about the "AAA game" audience, and that's very important in our age, because some compromises are inevitable when you want to try to sell something - and you have to sell it to the marketers and execs first.

I also think the toolset is a pleasure to work with - has its own logic you should follow, but it is powerful, and I think very easy to use even for a newbie. I always wished for some of its functionality when I was working with Dromed. It would certainly have made building my first mission easier. A decent small mission takes really little once you have the basics under your belt.

I admit to be puzzled by the criticism that it doesn't allow the use of the Thief canon. When I look at Thief missions, most of them are cloak and dagger stories that steal liberally from things like film noir, courtroom drama, gothic fiction, Shakespeare and more. They often play on our familiarity with specific names, but the majority would work well if they didn't have their association with Garrett's universe. Of my missions, only Unbidden Guest hinges on being a part of the canon.

And what I find sad is that we have this great, great resource, and it is under-used, under-played and under-promoted. We shouldn't have 60 missions by now - although that's a bunch - I dunno, we should have 120, or 150... Full campaigns, even, by the modern equivalents of Purah or Frobber. I don't want to sound mean, but it sometimes seems like a cold-blooded rejection by some (definitely not all) people.

[Brethren]

I don't want to sound mean, but it sometimes seems like a cold-blooded rejection by some (definitely not all) people.

You make it sound malicious. I think there's just something about TDM that doesn't connect with some Thief fans - you could probably come up with a whole variety of reasons why. I've edited in both and I do agree that TDM editing is easier. I also play every TDM (and T2) mission as it comes out, but overall I prefer to play T2 FMs. Which isn't to say I don't like TDM missions, not at all.

But back to the point - I don't think Thief fans have kind of a vendetta or crusade against TDM as you suggest. As far as editing goes, my guess is that since making an FM takes so much time and effort, most people stick with what's comfortable. The evidence lies in the fact that there are only a very small handful of authors who have made both a TDM and T1/T2 mission. The only ones I can think of are yourself, Fidcal, Nielsen74, and Schwaa.

Shot-in-the-dark, wild, tangential thought - maybe the fact that the two universes are so similar is what is causing the lack of interest in TDM. In other words - some may think - why do we need a second Thief? (Keep in mind, this is just me theorizing out loud, that's not how I actually feel). Maybe if TDM leaned more towards a true fantasy world, or was a modern steampunk, or something else just different enough, it might attract more attention. Not sure on that one though, I'll have to think it over a bit more.

[nbohr1more]

Some comments are veering into "defensive about potential trolling" territory. I admit that I was half expecting a few folks to step in and knock TDM but I wouldn't preempt that in every case (by default) just yet...

I'm signed-up at darkfate now.

I've been trying to post... but the post controls don't seem to obey my browser.
Maybe I'm still doing something wrong?

[Shadowhide]

I'm signed-up at darkfate now.

I've been trying to post... but the post controls don't seem to obey my browser.
Maybe I'm still doing something wrong?

can you please give me a link to a google translated version of darkfate ?
i'd like to check if its about functional as original page ect.

[swordbreaker]

@Nbohr
why don't you try Dishonored forums to take attention for darkmod? Both of them stealth games after all. I'm sure it'll take more interest than ttgl.

[demagogue]

It's not a bad idea, but Dishonored is still a gizmo-heavy twitch-stealth game though... Dark Mod is very much about the classic approach ... minimalist HUD, no crazy gizmos or powerups, no annoying pop-ups, no pandering to twitch gaming. The whole point was it's supposed to be like T2, not all the games coming out now. It is very much at home here, not out there on other gaming sites.

It reminds me of a marketing case when kiwi fruits were first introduced in the US & Europe. The economic models all predicted that kiwis *should* have a big market competing with the strawberries niche, & the cross-price elasticity (the measure of how much two things compete for the same market; more specifically the measure of their prices rising & falling in tandem) with kiwis & strawberries in Aus & NZ was very high, but in the US & Europe it was very low at first... Because people that liked strawberries didn't know they were going to love kiwis yet. It was still something foreign & unknown. But of course as more strawberry-lovers tried kiwis, they fell in love with kiwis too (as expected) and the CPE started rising. I feel like it's that situation here. A lot of Thief players don't know that they're going to love Dark Mod yet, but all the pieces are there for them to. We don't *want* it to be like Dishonored or Splinter Cell or Thief3 or Thief4 because our heart is with TTLG & T2 and not with people that want it to go with the (uninspiring) flow and want to tell us "Moar gunz plz LOL!1!".

Or to be neutral about it, I think the cross-price elasticity between Thief2 and Dark Mod would be very high to those that have played both (and the latest version of Dark Mod, not the earlier, more glitchy version), or mapped for both, speaking of mappers.

[nbohr1more]

Here's the Darkfate site ala Google translate:

http://translate.googleusercontent.c...W-NEGKPukAoSRQ

I can login but I changes right back to Russian once I do...

I'll have to check out the Dishonored forums too...

[Shadowhide]

Here's the Darkfate site ala Google translate:

http://translate.googleusercontent.c...W-NEGKPukAoSRQ

I can login but I changes right back to Russian once I do...

yeah,its doing same for me too
thats mean you have to learn russian...

jokes aside you can ask New Horizon or Bikerdude,they were actually posting over darkfate some time ago or you can drop me a PM with text you wanted to post and I will post it myself