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Thread: Make Thief great again

  1. #26
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae HU
    chk772: UW:A is not a Warren Spector game, and so far, his only role in it seems to be in an advisory capacity. Thankfully, most of it seems to be a Paul Neurath / Tim Stellmach design.

    In my opinion, UW:A will live or die by Otherside's commitment to deep environmental simulation: turning game physics into gameplay, and a living dungeon ecology. If they can deliver on these promises, that will be something that has never been done systematically in a non-indie computer RPG. It has been present as window dressing and in various scripted ways, but not in a thorough fashion allowing for emergent gameplay and interesting choices&consequences. Deep simulation and emergent gameplay are state of the art stuff, just not state of the art graphics. This is precisely the point: the game industry has neglected to develop outside graphical fidelity, and even regressed in comparison with early 1990s games. Ultima Underworld, for its relatively early 3d engine, holds up very well as a complex dungeon exploration experience, and is full of small features which are missing from modern CRPGs. The promise of building on that foundation and going forward is why I am a backer at the $100 tier - I would like to see that kind of innovation take off in CRPGs again.

    What does worry me is that while Otherside hyped these aspects of the game in their Kickstarter campaign, the recent campaign updates have been quiet about them, and instead focused on art direction, factions and (to a lesser extent) their love for the lizardmen language. Which was a fine piece of innovation - for 1991, in Underworld 1. It is possible the sim aspects are there, just not mentioned. Honestly, I am feeling they might have underestimated the budget they needed to realise their vision.

  2. #27
    Registered: May 2004
    Well, the next update should be about gameplay. Also, the vertical slice is close to finished, so we'll get to try the next iteration out ourselves.

  3. #28
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Pennsylvania
    Anyone playing Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild? It trusts the player to be intelligent and figure things out, and it allows for a lot of creative problem-solving.

  4. #29
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    So what you're saying is... Nintendo should make the next Thief game?

    -It's-a me, Garrett!

    -Sorry Garrett, the loot is in another castle.

    (because I'd be completely fine with that.)

  5. #30
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    It's dangerous to go alone, take this blackjack.

    Seriously though, Weasel, that seemed like kind of a random comment. Care to expand on that?

  6. #31
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Pennsylvania
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    It's dangerous to go alone, take this blackjack.

    Seriously though, Weasel, that seemed like kind of a random comment. Care to expand on that?
    I guess it would have made sense to quote the things I was responding to. Earlier in the thread, people said:

    Quote Originally Posted by marbleman View Post
    To attract the "next generation of players," games have to be made simpler. Making a game like old-school Thief is not economically viable now.

    The only hope we have is modding. From the fans for the fans. Mad respect to all the FM authors who still create missions for a game that is more than 15 years old
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrebo6 View Post
    I think that most publishers just seem to really underestimate the new generation of gamers.
    Not every one under 30 is a complete moron that can't handle a game that does have all the action take place via a 3-second cutscene or press button to win with no complexity,boring level design and dumbed down mechanics.
    There are plenty of people out there who have no problem with that kind of complexity in their single player experiences.Look you are never going to draw in or keep the gamers with the attention spans of a gerbil who only play games like COD,Madden,other annually released generic schlock,or MLG types who only maybe multiplayer or MOBA's you are never gonna bring those people in.
    I just noticed that Maxrebo6 did mention Zelda briefly.

    My point is, I think there is hope that Thief can someday return as a game / franchise for intelligent players, with scenarios that make (or at least let) players use their brains to figure out how to accomplish their objectives. I know plenty of other games have been doing so along the way, but maybe if people see that Nintendo can do it with a franchise as big as Zelda, anyone can do it. (I still enjoyed them, but most of the recent Zelda games had been holding the players' hands too much.)

  7. #32

    Edit: Oh, hey that was posted in the UW forum. I thought I saw it here somewhere.

  8. #33
    Registered: Oct 2009
    Location: Pawtucket,Rhode Island
    The New Zelda is proof that game that don't think the player is a moron can and do work.I think Nintendo hit the sweet spot with Zelda and it shows why until recent years which including some stumbling on their part,why Nintendo was able to revive console gaming after the collapse and that they still know how to make great games.I think Zelda was in the sweet spot in not holding the players hand but not being sadistic about.I having a nothing against Dark Souls and have been meaning to give those games a serious try which requires doing some research into character builds then learn the game.I might actually be able to get pretty good it since,slow and methodical is how I tend to play. But that is one end of the spectrum and super hand holdy games are one the other and I find the best games including a lot of classics from the golden age tend to fall right in the middle and strike a seemingly perfect balance.

    What would you all consider as the time frame of the Golden Age of Gaming both PC and Console

    For me I would say its starts in either 86 or 87 and ends sometime in the early to mid 2000's but it really hit its stride starting 90 and all they way to around 2007 which is kind of when things started to go in the wrong direction with some exceptions.

    I really want some classic game design concepts to make a comeback one example being Thief,Goldeneye and Perfect Dark's additional objectives has you increased the difficulty instead of most modern's games version which is enemy's become damage sponges and you have the endurance of wet paper,actual optional and out of the way objectives,secret areas that reward exploring your environments and soaking in the game world.Not to mention almost everything about the original Deus Ex and the work done by modders on many different games that made incredible changes that feel like they were always there.I also wouldn't mind a return of 3D platformers,which hopefully Yooka-Laylee will be start the trend of.What other classic game styles or design choices from the golden age do you wish would make a comeback.

    Speaking of Zelda,I have got to say that in my opinion its the best 3D game since both Ocarina and Majora's,I did of course like Wind Waker,Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword but I think the release made some very much necassary improvements and It make me hope they give Skyward Sword the same treatment because in could really use it.The 2D/Portable Games have been really good except in my opinion Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks.Not bad games mind you but I have never had the desire to play them again unlike every other game in the series.

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