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Thread: New Dark History?

  1. #1
    New Member
    Registered: Jul 2018

    New Dark History?

    It's been some time (2008 or so) since I actively followed the TTLG community. I recently replayed both Thief 1 and 2, and learned briefly about the Dark Engine source code, the creation of New Dark, etc. I'm still a bit confused on the details, and I was hoping to have some things cleared up

    Where is the Dark Engine source code? Can I get access to it? I read that a few "trusted individuals" have a private repo with it. Who are they and what have they done with it? Is there any way to contact them to request a snapshot of the code? Has it since been made public at all?

    I have some hazy memories of some base missions of Thief 2 Gold either being leaked or gifted to the community. Has there been any progress with restoring those missions? Was this release related at all to the source code leak?

    I've learned briefly about the failed petition with Eidos for officially releasing the source code. Have they since followed up at all? Have they commented on the leak or on New Dark?

    Who released New Dark? Are they a member of TTLG? Are they still actively updating it? Was New Dark made using the previously mentioned leak of the source code?

  2. #2
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    -the source code has been leaked by a guy from the Dreamcast community who found it on a dev kit he purchased. should still be possible to find it on the internet if you want to have a look.
    -a few T2G missions have indeed been made available to the community, but (apart from one fan mission) nothing significant has been done with them, as they are pretty much just bare levels in a very early phase of development, without any additional resources like extra voice acting etc. no relation to the source code.
    -Eidos had the SS2 source code at one point, and they actually talked to some TTLG members for a while, but they've stopped responding after some time, so they don't care anymore, apparently.
    -NewDark is being released by the Raven at Ariane4ever forum, with the latest release being just a couple of weeks old. the Raven only appears when dropping a new release, and then vanishes again, that's pretty much all we know.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia
    Hmm... Didn't actually know that there were source files in the leak. But now I'm searching the forums - yeah, people say there was a lot of stuff.

    I thought that only unfinished builds were available, and nothing more. Still have them here: ftp://ftp.valet2.com/system_shock_2_dreamcast/

    Would love to get other files as well.

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    The Thief 2 Gold is one sad story, which I think should be left to rest in peace where it belongs - in the past.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    i agree bulgarian taffer


    the entire idea of thief 1 gold was cause thief one was a bit rushed to release and gold would have been t1 if not rushed,t2 would have been same deal

    but considering how gaming industry is now,no company's put out a full game anymore,

    in the end a cash grab for the same crap with a few more things added=not worth it

    i would much rather see a prequel to thief 1=play as artamis maybe?,find out about alot of things we never knew

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by downwinder View Post
    the entire idea of thief 1 gold was cause thief one was a bit rushed to release and gold would have been t1 if not rushed,t2 would have been same deal
    Thief 2 was rushed, actually.. Skacky found some cool photos of the original Thief 2 patch:

    https://twitter.com/skacky/status/1014500908682670080

    So yes - missing brushes, no stairways

  7. #7
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by downwinder View Post
    a prequel to thief 1=play as artamis maybe?
    yes from the time gurratt was only a kid

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: May 1999
    Location: on the socio path
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    Thief 2 was rushed, actually.. Skacky found some cool photos of the original Thief 2 patch:

    https://twitter.com/skacky/status/1014500908682670080

    So yes - missing brushes, no stairways
    This actually brings up a question I've been meaning to ask. I've heard the Sold Out patch is a hybrid 1.07/1.18 mess, and all modern digitally distributed copies use it. What exactly is the difference between the Sold Out patch and a full proper 1.18 install? Is there any visible difference that someone (who plays OldDark) would notice?

  9. #9
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    the 1.07/1.18 hybrid has a few textures and other resources missing, and the scripts and gamesys are out of date. nothing catastrophic, but will most likely cause subtle issues here and there, and maybe break some FMs that rely on the latest versions of the vanilla scripts. anyway, fix.

    and yes, both steam and GOG use the hybrid, but GOG should be fixed as soon as they deploy the(ir) 1.26 build.

  10. #10
    New Member
    Registered: Jul 2018
    Thanks, voodoo47. Definitely appreciate the detailed response.

    I've seen that DromEd is also getting various updates as well. Is this related to the Raven's work? Or a separate team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    The Thief 2 Gold is one sad story, which I think should be left to rest in peace where it belongs - in the past.
    Anywhere I could learn more about it? I seem to vaguely remember that you (or was it Random_Taffer?) were a part of the team, is that correct? Not to bring up bad memories, but I'm curious...

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by Bananagrams View Post
    Anywhere I could learn more about it? I seem to vaguely remember that you (or was it Random_Taffer?) were a part of the team, is that correct? Not to bring up bad memories, but I'm curious...
    I think that both of us were part of the original fan project. And in the end, it was me who created the college mission and released it, with the help of some other people who weren't part of the original team.

    The problem of Thief 2 Gold is not that it can't be finished. It can. The mission remnants are here, DromEd is here and there are enough skilled people who can do it.

    The problem is that there are too many people here who try to dictate how exactly the missions should be finished. Yes, none of us has been part of the original LGS team and none can actually recreate the LGS spirit. But that attitude is extremely discouraging. A person needs to be inspired in order to work on these mission. And he needs to have certain creative freedom in order to create art. Imitation is the surest way to fail. The funny thing is that such toxic attitude towards the efforts to work on T2G missions is stupid. Many of the FMs, although different from the OMs, are of higher quality.

    I'm going to expand on this, and I'll say that I strongly suppose it's largely the community's fault of why NuThief was a debacle. The attitude towards the representative here in the early stage of development, and dictating how Thief 4 should be done, may have convinced the team that they can't please us, which led to thrashing everything that made Thief good, and start anew. Of course, I don't have proof that this is what has happened (as I don't know anybody working at EM), and it's just an educated guess. But I won't be surprised if that's what really happened.

  12. #12
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    I don't think the T2 Gold situation is a sad story at all. There was a team formed that was made up of nicked, myself, BT and Random Taffer, and our goal was to finish the missions released by Digi. But most of us at the time had very little dromed experience, and people eventually lost interest and the project died. But it's still there for the taking if anyone wants it. The missions are there, and we have notes on what the missions were originally supposed to be from Randy Smith, Emil Pagliarulo, and Digi. It's still the same gift given to the community by an ex-LGS dev, just waiting for someone to jump on it.

    BT and I differ on this issue, but I believe the whole point of releasing the missions was the hope that some individual or group would finish them and make them as close as possible as to how they were originally intended. And we have a decent amount of info available to us on that subject. His "museum" mission was completely unrelated to what LGS's had planned, and that's fine. But IMO the real goal should be to make a fan version of what LGS would have released if they hadn't gone out of business.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Bringing this back on topic: The whole Thief 2 Gold project started more than ten years ago, and the College (Museum) was released by me 9 years ago. That's ... a long time.

    Everything we're talking about is from before the NewDark era.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    I'm going to expand on this, and I'll say that I strongly suppose it's largely the community's fault of why NuThief was a debacle. The attitude towards the representative here in the early stage of development, and dictating how Thief 4 should be done, may have convinced the team that they can't please us, which led to thrashing everything that made Thief good, and start anew. Of course, I don't have proof that this is what has happened (as I don't know anybody working at EM), and it's just an educated guess. But I won't be surprised if that's what really happened.
    They couldn't make it good, so the only choice they had was to make it bad? Sounds about right. If they really were making a good Thief game, why didn't they show us any of that?

    Also, we had a great relationship with the community manager when the project was in the early stages. This was all before we saw the first glimpses of the game, however. The negative reaction to the game -- headshots for XP, the rebooted Garrett, no free jumping, etc -- it all came after that. And then we got another representative here who, yes, got some undeserved flak as a messenger, when it was really the message that people were opposed to.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Maupertuis
    Thank you all for filling me on many details I missed while I was away. That being said, please don't forget the biggest contribution of them all. Digital Nightfall and his friends used their insider connections to persuade someone at LGS to let them try using Dromed. LGS were reluctant, because they knew how difficult an editor Dromed was and is. However, Digi and team succeeded in creating a fun (though unprofessional) level, which was enough to convince LGS to release Dromed to the public. This mission was Gathering at the Bar, the very first FM. Other FMs were released earlier, since team CoSaS put the FM through more rounds of bugtesting and refinement, but that's how things went down.

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