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Thread: The Extra 10 Minutes

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2002
    Location: a tract of land designated for a purpose
    Originally posted by Kiech Bepho
    Rather cryptic response...but ok, you guys don't like my idea.

    Still, I bet it would stop Mad_Gerbil's constant posts about how thieves always get the upper hand.

    Kiech
    Kiech, the way it works is like this: Each side gets a limited number of "lives". The guard "lives" are all on the map, with the difference between the starting number and the number of humans playing guards being taken up by computer controlled AI.

    For the thieves, it's different. There are no AI thieves, only human players. So for a level with, say, 10 guard lives and 6 thief lives, if there are 6 players, then you will have in that round (assuming no one else joins in or drops out):

    3 human guards
    7 AI guards
    3 human thieves

    When a human guard is eliminated, he will "respawn" into one of the AI guards (if there are any left), wherever that guard may be. When a human thief is killed, he will "respawn" at a set point on the map (assuming there are lives left), and one "life" will be subtracted from the pool. In both cases, the player get to buy a new load of equipment. If at any time, a human player is eliminated and there are no lives left for his team, he's forced to spectate the game for the rest of the round (and yes, as a rat is a possibility here).

    The problem with having each human thief (and guard, for that matter) only have one life is that it will make the game rather short for some players, and they'll spend a LOT of time just watching (which most people don't consider that much fun), and because often, in a small game (say, 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2), the thieves only get one chance to play, with a smaller force, against a guard contingent that always starts at full force. That means that the balance of each round would be highly dependent on the number of people actually playing, and the development team was going for a game that would be balanced regardless of whether it was a 1 vs 1 or 5 vs 5 game.

  2. #27
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Location: Phoenix
    Hmm, here is another idea, since you don't like the 'theives don't respawn' thought:

    Thieves LOOSE points for every guard they whack.

    Again, this does away with DM games, the time limit, and make it more challenging for the thief.

    And Mad_Gerbil won't whine as much. Of course you could just give him his own forum category when the new TUT forums are up. "Mad_Gerbil's whine tasting room" or words to that effect.

    Kiech

  3. #28
    I don't like the points idea because points shouldn't have a bearing on in game actions. It detracts from immersion.

    Reign in the BJ and use the default time.... that would go ALONG ways toward balancing the game.

  4. #29
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Maryland, USA
    LR sed:
    That means that the balance of each round would be highly dependent on the number of people actually playing, and the development team was going for a game that would be balanced regardless of whether it was a 1 vs 1 or 5 vs 5 game.
    LR: curious that you said it that way. You're right. A big problem, I think, is that for advanced thieves, the AI are so dumb that they can be ignored. That's why when there's one thief left versus four humans and two AI, we call it 1v4 (ignoring the AI). With that in mind, the balance issues the devs were thinking of go out the window, since the human guards are all that really matter for skilled thieves. Therefore, the number of players really is the determining factor on whether a game is balanced or not. (See my thread on 1v2 balancing for further example.)

    So, what's my point? Uh, I dunno. Guess I was rambling, and wanted to share this thought.

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Location: Phoenix
    Ugh...not sure how to help you guys out then...

    Mad_Gerbil, you are screwed.

    LaughingRat: I am not sure I was very clear in what I said before. The game would be balanced in that the number of guards:number of thieves would be porportinal, depending on the map. Say there are 3 thieves and you are doing a 10:1 map. (Pretty big map, eh?) Then there would be 30 total guards roaming the map, regardless of the number of human guards. Of course that number is just made up.

    In your example of 10 guard lives and 6 thief lives, that sounds rather one-sided to the thieves, if you ask me. If thief had actual co-op multiplayer, and 2 of my buddies and I were going up against only 10 guards - even with only one respawn apiece - we wouldn't think twice about turning it into a DM. BJ and Snipe any guards that we can, then team up and take out any troublesome guard's left.

    As for being left with nothing to do but watch...yea that would really suck. But it would force thieves to take a more conservitive approach instead of DMing.

    Kiech

  6. #31
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2002
    Location: a tract of land designated for a purpose
    Originally posted by Kiech Bepho
    And Mad_Gerbil won't whine as much. Of course you could just give him his own forum category when the new TUT forums are up. "Mad_Gerbil's whine tasting room" or words to that effect.
    LMFAO!!!

    Originally posted by Kiech Bepho
    In your example of 10 guard lives and 6 thief lives, that sounds rather one-sided to the thieves, if you ask me. If thief had actual co-op multiplayer, and 2 of my buddies and I were going up against only 10 guards - even with only one respawn apiece - we wouldn't think twice about turning it into a DM. BJ and Snipe any guards that we can, then team up and take out any troublesome guard's left.
    Maybe it seems that way, if you're used to Thief, where one thief plays against many guards. However, those computer-controlled guards are oblivious to your presence (at least at first), and the human guards in Thievery start KNOWING that there are thieves, and actively trying to find them and prevent them from stealing.

    In practice, a 1.5:1 guard ratio is about the norm, though it varies some, from map to map. The map with the largest number of guard lives is (currently) 18. These maps mostly aren't as big as the missions in Thief.

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Location: Finland
    Why don't you people stop?

    THIEVERY IS PERFECTLY BALANCED! Go home. Nothing to see here.




  8. #33
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: With Loki's Book
    One of the problems with human thieves and AI guards is that the human thieves know where the AI guards are. If you have been playing thievery for a while, than you know the patrol routes for all of the AI guards. So Mad Gerbil, instead of blaming the thieves for killing your AI, blame yourself. You should've moved those AI to unpredictable locations at the start of the game. Take the first couple of minutes and relocate the AI to strategy points. One of the best games I ever played on DE was where one of the human guards relocated all of the AI to great strategy areas. Those damn AI killed me like three times because I could never predict where they were. I was so use to the AI patrolling a location, so when I snuck in and didn't see the AI there, I thought I was safe. But oh no, the damn AI was strategically placed behind a door where I didn't see him. And bammo! Killed me.

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Location: los angeles,ca
    i have an idea here

    ok the thieves start out with only one life
    no crack arrows ,no blackjack
    no potions'
    Guards have 20,000 loot to start
    and unlimited lives
    that way mad gerbil would always win
    and as a bonus we never have to hear him whine
    except in the afore mentioned whine room lol

  10. #35
    New Member
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Location: Pennsylvania

    Katra's Speech on happiness

    Again people of TUT... We have another uncompromising dilemma. and you know what? It all comes back down to the question of BALANCE.
    What is balance, the dictionary defines it as To bring into or maintain in a state of equilibrium. Taking everything into consideration; all in all. and finally To bring into or keep in equal or satisfying proportion or harmony. This is the true clock that runs the universe. If we all are satisfied and joyed at the company of fellow players of thievery, then whats to matter about who wins or who loses? It would have been a great game nevertheless. Also our hardworking developers that we all depend so heavily on are always doing their best to make our game-playing experience as best as possible. So thievery playas around the world. Tonight.. Im asking you, is the night that thievery players of the world to all join hands. today, in glory will get along. As of this day we shall become one unified nation of friends and happy tut players and pray to god, or whatever diety you beleive, that this community shall become happy once more.
    So join me . and as of this night i expect not to hear cursing, dissing noobs who wanna have fun, compaining about lag or any of that negativety is now permanently erased. Please dispose of it in your mental trash cans. So I hope that this little ditty has changed some players attitudes about this game. So TUT players JOIN ME>> in the thievery REVOLUSHYON!

    Pardon the formality, but i just had a burst of creativity _________________________________


    and i needed to express myselff. Thank you all for reading my post.
    _________________________________________
    ...Those that need comforting shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    -the bible

    ...And will they rejoice and pray for the builder's acceptance? NOOOOOOOOOOO. They will wail and scream most ungrateful!. -Karras sometime during Garrett's infiltration of soulforge cathedral

  11. #36
    To those of you that think thievery is balanced, I have to ask this:

    Why did LaughingRat and Mog ADD time to the maps on their servers?

    I'm advocating the default settings here people. You cannot be for adding 10 minutes to the game AND hold the position that the game is perfectly balanced outta the box. Once again, I'm arguing FOR the DEFAULT setting.

    I'm guessing MOG and LR saw that 20 minutes as "unbalanced" so they changed it.

  12. #37
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Location: Phoenix
    We are the world, we are the children..."

    Oh, it just chokes me all up.. oh, I seem to have a bit of the the 'cleft.

    Talk amongst yoursevles. Talk amongst yourselves.

    Here i'll give you a topic:

    In LOTR: TTT, do you really belive that Aragon could have thrown Gimili a distance of over 6 feet safely from that small ledge?

    ...
    ...
    ...

    There I feel much better now.



    Kiech

  13. #38
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2002
    Location: a tract of land designated for a purpose
    Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
    I'm guessing MOG and LR saw that 20 minutes as "unbalanced" so they changed it.
    Yep, exactly. But that's a matter of tweaking the user controllable settings, not contesting the hardcode, like blackjacks or fire bolts.

    One can also take out the supply chest, if one wants, and in fact, Mog's server was initially set up this way. It was enabled due to the popular opinion of the community, among guard-advocates and thief-advocates alike, that it was necessary for balance.

    I'm guessing that most people here also don't play with the default mouse sensitivity of 11, or with the default "Invert Mouse" set on, because they make the game less playable that way.

  14. #39
    Well in this post I'm arguing for the default setting as opposed to adding 10 minutes to make life easier for DM thieves.

  15. #40
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Location: Phoenix
    I don't know Mad_Gerbil, does adding 10 minutes really make that big of a difference when you play? If you really don't like having all of your AI buddies KO'ed then just have one stay with you at all times so you know that you at least have another respawn availible. Or not.

    Maybe you can ask LaughingRat to tell you what he can change on his server, and see if he will let you run a few games with a different rule set. Maybe you can compromise, he gets 10 min extra, and you get ...something. He might even like the idea and make it his default setting. Who knows?

    Kiech

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2002
    Location: a tract of land designated for a purpose
    Originally posted by Kiech Bepho
    Maybe you can ask LaughingRat to tell you what he can change on his server, and see if he will let you run a few games with a different rule set. Maybe you can compromise, he gets 10 min extra, and you get ...something. He might even like the idea and make it his default setting. Who knows?
    One of the differences between Gerbil and myself is that Gerbil ia always right, but I'm sometimes wrong. So I'm considering actually lowering the time limit on the Crackaz server to the default, just to test his theory.

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Far away from you
    You idiots irritate me. I'm going to bet that LaughingRat is the only one who plays Guard regularly. And you all have the gall to say the Gerbil is whining.

    I was going to disburse the "TUT SI BALANCD!!111" whine, but this is not the thread to do so.

  18. #43
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: With Loki's Book
    Originally posted by Kiech Bepho
    Kiech Bepho
    New Member

    Registered: Dec 2002
    Location: Phoenix
    Woohoo! Somebody else from Phoenix besides me! t00w! Hurry and buy Unreal Tournament G.O.T.Y. at CompUsa for $9.99. And than download Thievery 1.0, and than the 1.2 patch. Come on! I want to kick a Phoenix kid's ass!

  19. #44
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2002
    Location: a tract of land designated for a purpose
    Originally posted by OHHDEAR
    You idiots irritate me. I'm going to bet that LaughingRat is the only one who plays Guard regularly. And you all have the gall to say the Gerbil is whining.
    Is that a compliment or statement of support?? LOL!

    However, on the contrary, there are quite a few players here who play guard regularly, some even almost exclusively. Gerbil has put together an entire guild of strictly guards, in fact.

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Far away from you
    By idiots, I meant idiots who dismissed Gerbil as a whiner while playing Guard as little as possible. And you, Rat, are, as far as I know, the only one qualified to give a dissenting opinion due to your G and T playing.

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: England, Uk
    Last i checked you also need the innoxx bonus pack 4 to play thievery

    I also like the preset time setting (20 min to the new kids) but dont think the extra time comes into play against dmers, since i know for a fact i can get to most ai in under 10 min that leaves a half the default time to do as i please (either as guard OR thief i may add).
    In terms of fun for both sides, if there is no thief (IE a ghost plays) then there is no guarding for most of the time....
    I play at max steeles fr preset times but dont stay there since i cant chat freely. Mogs is the BEST server for me jsut i prefer lower times, it never stops me going there to play though
    I still ask LR for lower times but understand how some people need that time to get the most out of thieving.....
    I have fun either way, because for a start i knwo a taffer will be here at SOME point in the match, or because i love flaunting my taffer arse in the guards face, as i LOVE the thrill of the shace and slipping away from about 2-3 guards at a time knowing they think im where i am not.


    NOW as for the loot thing, i DO think it is a tad out of hand when i can triple the amount of loot on a map singlehandledy because i have the time and lives to do so..... this isnt a factor usuallu as lets face it, NO_ONE likes to die.... but in a case where say "DMers"tm rush the level and manage to touch some loot, it can effect how the rest of the level plays out, since the remainder thieves are guaranteed more loot (because of how the loot respawn works) ive asked (and i suspect that why LR might change) for the loot percent dropped to be changed to give guards mroe chance of catching thieves, whether or not it will work i dont know(it may be better a dead thief keeps the loot) but i hope it does.

    *Joins hands and sings along* "We are the taffers.... and some are guards...we love the loot and smashing others...."

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