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Thread: TFix: unofficial patch for Thief1/Gold

  1. #2601
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    it kind of depends on how much of a purist you are - I personally like TFix+NecroAge, reasonably close to vanilla and very pleasant to look at. all links are in the first post.


    @Chewbubba - enjoy.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 16th May 2018 at 05:17.

  2. #2602
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2000
    Location: PA, USA
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    it kind of depends on how much of a purist you are - I personally like TFix+NecroAge, reasonably close to vanilla and very pleasant to look at. all links are in the first post.


    @Chewbubba - enjoy.
    Thanks, voodoo! I'll check it out. I really don't need the textures to look exact, but I do want reasonable similarity and proper tinting, though maybe I could mess with the tints myself if it was necessary. I just loved the old color scheme and the way some bricks looked mossy.

  3. #2603
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    Sigh... the red lights for alarms are annoying, but I'll live. However, is there any valid reason at all you decided to add an obstacle on top of the crushing wall door in The Haunted Cathedral?
    The ceiling there is wood so you can use a Rope Arrow to get on top of it. You could also mantle on top of it in previous versions, and you could also very easily do that in the old engine too for that matter. There's no NewMantle abuse possible in this area since mantling on top of the door was intended even back then! You removed a valid way to get out of the trap area for no reason at all. If LGS hadn't wanted you to be able to escape this area through mantling, they'd have made the doorframe taller.

  4. #2604
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    yes, it has been added exactly because new mantle was making the trap laughably easy to escape (tested oldDark vs NewDark, and decided to add it). fixing such places up is well within scope.

    red alarmlights are actually dml based, so getting rid of them is very easy - delete all the light stuff under "adding light to the alarmlights" in the corresponding dml (level restart required).

  5. #2605
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    I'm sorry but that's a downright terrible reason. There are many places in the original missions that can truly be abused to climb out of the level or reach areas in unintended ways, and I don't see these fixed. This particular case however doesn't fall into that category since as I said, escaping the trap by mantling up the doorframe was intended by LGS. NewMantle may make it easier, but it was still intended and possible in OldDark.

  6. #2606
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by skacky View Post
    There are many places in the original missions that can truly be abused to climb out of the level or reach areas in unintended ways, and I don't see these fixed.
    make a list and see them go (unless my memory is completely failing, the trap has also been reported by someone).
    Quote Originally Posted by skacky View Post
    escaping the trap by mantling up the doorframe was intended by LGS.
    is there a LGS signed document I've missed?

    anyway, if the trap fix bothers you so much, you can mod it out, add
    Code:
    +ObjProp 1218 "DiffPermit"
    {
    	"quest var values" 0
    }
    to miss7.mis.dml (and restart level). do note that I have also fixed a bunch of traps that never worked before, so now you do get pierced by arrows once you trigger them - guess I'm going against the original intentions at more than one place (if LGS wanted them to work, they would have fixed them, right?).

    the point here is - it's not too prudent to imagine LGS as some sort of gods, shining down a perfect, immaculate game down upon us. they were just guys (smart and capable, no doubt about that), trying to make deadlines while polishing the product as best as they can, but most certainly making mistakes and forgetting things along the way. and when I find those, I fix 'em, whether people like it or not.

  7. #2607
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    I'm not imagining LGS as gods but are you telling me with a straight face that a doorframe that's 10 units high was never intended to be climbed on? I find it incredibly hard to believe, and it also makes perfect sense the player can escape the trap this way. It's made really obvious that picking the door isn't the optimal way.
    Look, I'm not against fixing things that didn't work, like the traps you mentioned. This makes sense, but I take offense at arbitrarily changing things, not fixing things, such as adding colored lights in a game that did not support them, or adding this obstacle on top of the doorframe that shouldn't be here.

  8. #2608
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    the player trying to frantically pick the lock while the wall is grinding ever closer is exactly what they had in mind, I believe. not lol I can jump over this nice try devs.

    and I have no problems with some tweaks offending purists - there is no way I'm making them happy by definition. I also don't mind providing solutions to their "problems" wherever possible - as mentioned in the first post, you can always go for TFix lite, or you can just edit out the bits you don't like from the full version as I've demonstrated in my previous posts.

  9. #2609
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    the player trying to frantically pick the lock while the wall is grinding ever closer is exactly what they had in mind, I believe. not lol I can jump over this nice try devs.
    Of course that's what they had in mind, but they also considered the fact that players could think outside the box and see the doorframe is short BY DESIGN, and then mantle on it. They even allowed the player to shoot a Rope Arrow on the ceiling and do that this way too. What's so hard to understand about that? If they only wanted the player to pick the lock, they'd have made the doorframe reach the ceiling. Come on, this is simple level design. This isn't a fix, this is a change because you just felt like changing that.

    And it's not only about me, I know quite a few people who were annoyed by this. And consider this: you have a player asking on the forum how to get out of this place, and then you have another player telling them to just mantle on the doorframe. Can you see the upcoming confusion from the first player when they see they can't, because there's an obstacle that the second player wasn't aware of?

  10. #2610
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2017
    Location: New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    the player trying to frantically pick the lock while the wall is grinding ever closer is exactly what they had in mind, I believe. not lol I can jump over this nice try devs.

    and I have no problems with some tweaks offending purists - there is no way I'm making them happy by definition. I also don't mind providing solutions to their "problems" wherever possible - as mentioned in the first post, you can always go for TFix lite, or you can just edit out the bits you don't like from the full version as I've demonstrated in my previous posts.
    nevermind

    Who are you to decide what is a "problem" as you put it, and what was intentionally included or not included in the game by the developers?
    Last edited by The Black Cat; 18th May 2018 at 13:17.

  11. #2611
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    a fair amount of stuff that was completely broken has not been fixed in TG, the incorrect link data on Constantine in the last level would be a good example (or the garbled values on the cocoons, if you want an example that absolutely cannot be argued about). again, the notion of every single bug and mistake being squashed in whatever the final official release of something was with only the intentionally not working stuff left behind is ridiculous. SS2 is even worse in this regard - the amount of things that weren't fixed with the 2.3 official patch is staggering (talking about the ingame stuff, not the engine), I mean sure, who's going to care about stuff like the medical hypos not healing properly under certain circumstances, but there are issues like quests not completing properly, which is pretty much the first frikkin' thing you should check if you are trying to ship a game that makes the player do quests. and the 2.3 patch does not fix this, so it's intentional. yeah right - it's a miracle that the (v2.3) game somehow works enough to be completable.

    but I do agree that not every unfinished bit found in the resources needs to be restored, that's why you are not getting ogres and spider demons in Cragscleft and Maw.


    anyway, I do believe that the TFix product family is capable of satisfying a very wide range of customers (as mentioned, everything is fully described in the first post), so feel free to pick your favorite and enjoy it in any way you deem fit.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Cat View Post
    Are you aware that the short doorframe was not only meant to be a way in, but a way out? Have you considered that the player may want to exit the keeper library to go back and get something they missed?
    yes, that's why you actually can exit the room from the other side by jumping over the extra grate. it's grate to know that you've actually checked before joining the discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Cat View Post
    Who are you to decide
    the ultimate TFix overlord with absolute power.

    Last edited by voodoo47; 18th May 2018 at 10:56.

  12. #2612
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    Don't call it TFix then, since it's not just a bugfix patch. There's a difference between a fix and a modification, and the two examples I listed fall within the latter.

  13. #2613
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    it is what it is - as I've said, the description in the first post is accurate, if you bother to read (the final note). also, the full name is Thief Fixer, and you can stick a lot of things under "fixing". but seriously, are we having an argument about you not liking the name of the package now?

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterFlaw View Post
    Really? So... T2 guard model?
    nope, it's actually from a model set released by LGS later, as far as I know. I've inherited this when I took over, and didn't think there's a need to revert. also, are you really telling me to tell people what version to use before they try and see what they like?
    Last edited by voodoo47; 18th May 2018 at 11:22.

  14. #2614
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    sure - it's not like I'm forcing anyone to use anything.

  15. #2615
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    But you're forcing your arbitrary changes (not fixes) on people with the fence on top of the doorframe, the red alarm lights or the new skies or T2 textures (which should be off by default since the game was never conceived with these in mind). These sound like small details, but they're not in the grand scheme of things. The fence issue in particular is really annoying, because you're blatantly disregarding level design here. This area being conceived this way isn't random, the doorframe is short by design and there's enough room on the sides by design so it's possible to climb on it by mantling. This isn't the same as fixing the side street in Bafford's that had geometry issues, which is an actual fix.

  16. #2616
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Location: Wisconsin
    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Cat
    Are you aware that the short doorframe was not only meant to be a way in, but a way out? Have you considered that the player may want to exit the keeper library to go back and get something they missed? It is entirely possible to enter the keeper library without completing the previous objectives (I did it on my first playthrough, thank god I had an earlier save).
    I'm not sure I understand this. Hasn't it always been possible to leave the Keeper's Chapel area? The wall trap resets itself after a while. Or did LGS change something for Thief Gold?

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skacky
    escaping the trap by mantling up the doorframe was intended by LGS.
    is there a LGS signed document I've missed?
    For what it's worth, somebody left a design note on the door object in question (object #46):
    This door is unlocked with the key in the nearby library BUT the players won't be able to get past the door the first time with the key (they have to use a rope arrow instead).
    Can't say for sure who wrote it (though I'd bet on Randy Smith, because he built this mission IIRC), but it sounds to me like being able to pick open the door was an afterthought to account for any players dumb enough to waste all their rope arrows. And, yeah, the note specifically says "use a rope arrow" and not "mantle over," but regardless, the player was always meant to be able to get over the doorframe from that side. So while you can still get over the new fence with a rope arrow, I personally don't think the fence was necessary in the first place.

    Just my two cents.

  17. #2617
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2017
    Location: New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    a fair amount of stuff that was completely broken has not been fixed in TG, the incorrect link data on Constantine in the last level would be a good example (or the garbled values on the cocoons, if you want an example that absolutely cannot be argued about). again, the notion of every single bug and mistake being squashed in whatever the final official release of something was with only the intentionally not working stuff left behind is ridiculous. SS2 is even worse in this regard - the amount of things that weren't fixed with the 2.3 official patch is staggering (talking about the ingame stuff, not the engine), I mean sure, who's going to care about stuff like the medical hypos not healing properly under certain circumstances, but there are issues like quests not completing properly, which is pretty much the first frikkin' thing you should check if you are trying to ship a game that makes the player do quests. and the 2.3 patch does not fix this, so it's intentional. yeah right - it's a miracle that the (v2.3) game somehow works enough to be completable.

    but I do agree that not every unfinished bit found in the resources needs to be restored, that's why you are not getting ogres and spider demons in Cragscleft and Maw.


    anyway, I do believe that the TFix product family is capable of satisfying a very wide range of customers (as mentioned, everything is fully described in the first post), so feel free to pick your favorite and enjoy it in any way you deem fit.



    yes, that's why you actually can exit the room from the other side by jumping over the extra grate. it's grate to know that you've actually checked before joining the discussion.

    the ultimate TFix overlord with absolute power.

    Where is the exit route? I'll admit that my memory might be failing me. It's been a while since I played The Haunted Cathedral. I have no recollection of a way to escape, but feel free to show me.

    But regardless of whether I'm wrong, I expect what is basically considered the official unofficial patch to include bug fixes, not gameplay or level design changes. That is not what a patch is for. You seem to use your power as the "ultimate Tfix overlord" to change things you personally dislike. I don't care if you want to make your own version of the game, but where is an alternative for those of us who want the fixes but not your level changes? What's next, removing the blackjack from one of the missions because you think it should be ghosted and any other way is wrong?

    I really don't understand why you can't just have two options: one fixer that literally just fixes things, and another that includes things like the gate on the doorframe, T2 meshes and red alarm lights. At this point what I gather from your posts is that your "solutions to problems" exist not to make the game better but to inflate your ego.

    Like I said, I don't care if you want to make your ideal version of the game, I take issue with selling it as a patch or "fixer".
    Last edited by The Black Cat; 18th May 2018 at 13:22.

  18. #2618
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    ah, so many fans today. well then;
    Quote Originally Posted by skacky View Post
    But you're forcing your arbitrary changes (not fixes) on people
    again, you have quite a few options, not using the full package is one of them. but if you do go for it, then yeah, you pretty much agree that you will have to live with whatever I deemed fit to include. no way around this, as every purist draws his line elsewhere, one thinks I've gone too far there, the other one elsewhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterFlaw View Post
    Considering how grudgingly you released TFix Lite, and some of the snarky wording around it, it's clear you're upset when someone doesn't use your patch.
    nope, I enjoyed making it, just like I enjoyed making the minimalistic set of SS2 fixes for GOG/steam, as that posed a completely different kind of challenge compared to TFix or SCP (having full control over everything vs being restricted to only dml and vanilla scripts). and yeah, I do enjoy a bit of snarkiness (or sarcasm) every once in a while. whoever gets offended by this, deserves it. and no, I actually don't really care whether you use the package.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grandmauden View Post
    Hasn't it always been possible to leave the Keeper's Chapel area?
    what I meant is that while it's not possible to mantle in now, it's still possible to mantle out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grandmauden View Post
    I personally don't think the fence was necessary in the first place
    fair enough, but someone has reported it as an issue and I agree with that person, hence, fix.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Cat View Post
    I expect what is basically considered the official unofficial patch to include bug fixes, not gameplay or level design changes. That is not what a patch is for.
    it is not marketed as such - see the first line of the first post, it says "all-in-one fix pack", not a "100% true to vanilla bugfix only patch".
    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Cat View Post
    I really don't understand why you can't just have two options: one fixer that literally just fixes things, and another that includes things like the gate on the doorframe
    we pretty much do - lite and full. trying to create anything that would fit inbetween would be an impossible waste of time (as mentioned, people's sweet spots differ). I can (and will wherever possible) provide custom fixes and instructions on how to tweak the main build, see my previous posts to see how to remove the grate and disable the red alarmlights. all you need is to ask politely.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Cat View Post
    You seem to use your power as the "ultimate Tfix overlord" to change things you personally dislike.
    it's 99% stuff people report, I consider the report, consult the Council of Elder Dromeders in most cases, and either fix or discard. I don't remember the last time when I actually implemented something for the sole reason of just wanting it. wait, I do - the interactive candles.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Cat View Post
    I gather from your posts is that your "solutions to problems" exist not to make the game better but to inflate your ego.
    I was genuinely amused by this. TFix exists for one reason - I'm very lazy, and I wanted to have all my fixes and mods available in one neat package so I wouldn't have to go through all the required edits each time I reinstall the game. after some evolution, I thought that hey, I think this is actually good enough to be useful to other people as well. so I've made it public, and people seem to mostly like it so far - but that doesn't change the fact that primarily, I'm doing this for myself, as I enjoy making it and using it. people liking it and helping me improve it is a nice bonus, but it definitely isn't something I need (or demand), let alone the purpose of the patcher. so I'm perfectly ok with some people not liking it - feel free.

    I also love the irony of this starting to exist as something that was supposed to make me work less, but ended up as a thing I sank years of work into.

  19. #2619
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    Then we've come full circle. Don't call it TFix if it contains anything other than bugfixes. Can't you see this is misleading? You can modify whatever you like, but please don't do it under the guise of an "all-in-one fix pack", because calling it that just isn't true. People who don't know much about the game will install TFix and will get a substantially different experience with various arbitrary modifications despite thinking the thing is only a bugfix pack.
    It is also not our roles as players to remove some of the stuff you modified; it is your role to make these changes optional and selectable, which you did for the meshes, skies, candles or textures.

  20. #2620
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    funnily enough, I think Al_B was the first to call it Thief Fixer, and then it kind of stuck. anyway, I'm sure I've made it very clear - all downloads in the first topic have full, proper descriptions, so unless you ignore them completely, you will know exactly what you're getting into. I also have no plans of making every tiny, insignificant change or addition selectable, and yes, as the TFix maintainer, I do get to make that decision.

    and certainly not going to change the name because you think it's misleading.

  21. #2621
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    It's really amazing how incapable you are of swallowing your enormous pride and admitting adding the fence in The Haunted Cathedral was a mistake. You have two people in this very thread who tell you it's wholly unnecessary and should be reverted, you have several people I talked to, including those who made me aware of the change, who think it's a terrible change and should be reverted, but you don't care at all and are extremely condescending all the while. There are tons of evidence, including the way the room is laid out that show this was intended in the first place, but you decided on a whim to change that because why the hell not? I did not mention it but your change goes against the game's philosophy. You effectively removed a legit solution to a problem, in a game that encourages the player to solve problems. It's not as if this area led out of bounds or outright broke the level.

    Man, what a brick wall you are. Incredible.

  22. #2622
    New Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    I'm just not sure how you're ok with putting a fence above the doorframe to "stop abuse of newmantle", even though you could do it with the old mantle anyway (which should go to show your lack of knowledge there), but be totally fine with messing up the skybox in Keeper's Training, which allows anyone to just jump on one of the rooftops and skip over half the level with ease.

    And a total lack of respect for TDP players is just a bit mind boggling too.

  23. #2623
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    you could, but it was more difficult, and as mentioned, I simply agree with the guy who reported it - and there is nothing else to it really. you still have two very valid ways of getting yourself out of that situation, ones that do not feel like cheating. also, I'm aware that my work is by no means perfect, and there are things and areas where I did a less than a stellar job, and you not being aware of those and choosing to pick on that poor fence/grate instead is not something that would earn you many respect points. dig deep, find places that have actual problems, and then we can talk. the fence/grate is staying, though I'll probably make it easier to edit it out via dml, should the player decide that's how they want to roll.

    and if you mean that place in Training where you can get to the roof from the courtyard if you strafejump just right, I've actually fixed a few textures there to make your trip more pleasing to the eye, if memory serves. as I've already said some time ago, I'm not going to attempt to safeproof everything, as those who really want to wriggle themselves outside the bounds of the level will always find a way (I did fix up a few places where this was too easy though).

    also, this is the point where I would recommend ending the discussion, as it's obvious that both parties will not budge. you guys have an opinion, so do I, and they differ. in other news, water is wet and the sky is blue.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 18th May 2018 at 17:23.

  24. #2624
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    I'm not taking sides here, but after re-reading the OP a couple of times, I think it is a bit misleading as to what Tfix is. The initial paragraph

    TFix is an all-in-one fix pack for Thief and Thief Gold (apply & play, no other fixes are necessary). it uses NewDark, the latest update of the Dark Engine - this improves compatibility with new pcs significantly, fixes graphic issues, adds support for widescreen resolutions and much more (see the notes, including the final one).
    doesn't mention anything about any kind of mods or changes to the core gameplay. Even after that, the only hint of anything like that is the line about "no interest in tweaks or mods?" in the Tfix lite section, which many people may just skip over thinking they don't want a "lite" or abbreviated version of the patch. Even in the rest of the post, there's nothing that discusses some of the many types of changes the people have been discussing in the last few pages of this thread.

    I think any newbie or infrequent visitor to TTLG, just looking for a way to play Thief on their modern PC, will install Tfix blindly, thinking it's just fixing fatal errors that will stop the game from running properly. If you look elsewhere in the forums, that's what just about any veteran of the forums will tell a newb - "Just install Tfix and you'll be all set." We've all seen it many times.

    Isn't it possible to make the initial paragraph a bit more descriptive, and give some more in-depth detail on what's being changed? I know Jason has put a ton of his own sweat and tears into this thing over the years, but it seems like TFix has gained such a reputation, being really the only patch that installs New Dark and fixes problems in T1G, there's somewhat of a responsibility to not mislead anyone.

  25. #2625
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    went through the entire post just to be sure, and the descriptions are very accurate, I believe - the final note specifically warning about the TFix experience not being 100% true to the original, and recommending to look elsewhere if that's what one seeks. adding something like beware! extra fences and trees! and blackjack now has a new texture too! sounds rather ridiculous. but not opposed to adding/editing - anything specific you have in mind? but you know, people generally don't read stuff anyway, so it's kind of a wasted effort anyway.

    also, one mantle blocker is a core gameplay change? pretty sure being able to douse torches by frobbing would classify, but a singular object that just nudges you in a slightly different direction? please.

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