TTLG|Thief|Bioshock|System Shock|Deus Ex|Mobile
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 51

Thread: Killing children

  1. #1

    Killing children

    Two questions: Do you think Irrational are making a statement about embryonic stem cell research- killing (unborn) childern to advance society and/or oneself?

    Do you think this will continue to fly as the game get closer to being rated by the ESRB?

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: on the periodic table
    I rather think there will be noise about the killing of "cute" girlies.

    After soooo many science fiction works have critised biotech now, it's more a bandwagon than a "making a statement". Or the voicing of a public fear/mistrust that is there and is not relieved by the scientists for various reasons.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2005
    Location: Among the many
    It was only a matter of time before this subject was brought forward.

    Personally, I have no problem with eliminating whatever is attempting to prevent/hinder my progress through a video game. If there's a choice involved (as has been indicated) I may well choose to avoid confrontation but in all honesty, I'm fairly indifferent.

    The game I'm expecting (er, hoping for) will be rated 'M' / 'R+18' anyway. We could talk about the line that may have been crossed by introducing the younger people all day but it's important not to forget the other story matter, which in itself could be viewed by particular persons to explore unfathomable territory.

    As I've stated though - this subject will draw attention from other particular persons. I won't be at all surprised if the gatherers end up being at least 20...and only the voice-overs can really tell the tale. Making an assumption (i.e. a censoring authority) based on model scale alone shouldn't qualify the game for harsh restriction, or a possible ban...Austrailian fans would do well to keep an eye on whatever develops.

  4. #4
    I don't think the killing of the Gatherers is even remotely tied to the whole hot-button issue. I certainly see the connection, but Gatherers are little girls because killing a little girl is (at least close to) the most reprehensable horrible act a human can do, and that's what it takes to make a gamer think twice about what they do in a videogame... because... it's just a game and we all know it. Even still, to kill something that looks like a little girl for greed is still a bit over the top even for us. This draws us into the game and invokes the emotions, which is exactly what irrational wants. I see it as one of the last things we're not willing to even let our vitrual representation do.

    Also I think they're all going to remain little girls becauase little girls are the only thing that can easily be cute, innocent and goddamn creepy all at the same time. If a Gatherer was 20 years old, your heart wouldn't "Go out to them" at even close to the same amount, and they'd just be another enemy with a guard on them.


    a little girl is really the best choice for what they want to accomplish. I know there's going to be some noise from someone, but hopefully nothing will come of it other then a strict rating. It just wouldn't be Bioshock without that Protector/Gatherer Father/Daughter familial dynamic. Even hardened gamers who can actually "do the deed" without much pause are going to be feeling uncomfortable when they find the little girl's possessions or room somewhere. Or better yet, a Gatherer "Audio Log" or Diary. It'll haunt them at least a little whether they admit it or not =)


    Anyway, that's the whole point of the whole Gatherer/Adam thing I'm pretty sure... one does not work on a game for 5 years to make a simple "Hay stem cell research" statement
    Last edited by Shingro; 8th Jun 2006 at 07:50.

  5. #5
    Moderator
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: The Doldrums
    I think that's what makes Bioshock different from say, Prey. In the latter game you have some creepy looking demonic children, but from what I've seen of the game, it doesn't look that scary, and it seems you're just going to end up plowing through them after the initial scare. That should get more attention than Bioshock, because it's there just there for the shock factor than something that's tied integrally to the plot and something will really disturb you on an emotional level.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by tungsten
    I rather think there will be noise about the killing of "cute" girlies.

    After soooo many science fiction works have critised biotech now, it's more a bandwagon than a "making a statement". Or the voicing of a public fear/mistrust that is there and is not relieved by the scientists for various reasons.
    Actually, critiscising biotechnology and stem cell usage are two toally different things, done by two totally different political lines of thought, for two toally different reasons.

    The Left critisizes the use of "biological engineering" (correctly in my view) as dengerous, unpredictable, undemocratic and violating the rights of consumers. The underlying reasons imo have to do with more general issues surrounding "globaliztion" and the dissapearance of the rural farmer's place in society.

    The Right critisizes the use of stem cell research as immoral because it profits and benefits from abortions - which they in turn veiw as immoral. The underlying reasons imo have to do with religous fundamentalism and anti-feminism.

    To accuse Irrational of jumping on a bandwagon is very ironic. In a way they are, but not a bandwagon we would normally associate with the science fiction crowd at all. After all, when was the last time you saw a Star Trek fan join the Right to Life party?

    All that said, I'm mature enough not to let my personal political views bias my enjoyment of the game and its story. If Irrational makes a good case ill enjoy it either way. What they are doing is in fact quite risky, and very unusual. And of course its all open to interpretation.
    Last edited by Silkworm; 8th Jun 2006 at 15:20.

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Location: U of I, Urbana-Champaign
    Speaking of Right to Life, John Derbyshire's savaging of a recent book on the subject is good for yucks alone, even if it can't be considered an even-handed evaluation.

  8. #8
    Again, I think we can confidently say that it's less about a political topic and more about it "sounding groovy"

  9. #9
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by v.dog
    Two questions: Do you think Irrational are making a statement about embryonic stem cell research- killing (unborn) childern to advance society and/or oneself?
    Of course!

    And every first-person shooter is making a statement about gun control!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGodPan
    Speaking of Right to Life, John Derbyshire's savaging of a recent book on the subject is good for yucks alone, even if it can't be considered an even-handed evaluation.
    I once had a calculus teacher who actually was a total Star Trek geek - the type to have played and bought the original system shock when it was out on diskettes - and also a religious fanatic and a member of the Right to Life party.

    I imagine he is filled with rage everytime he hears "beam me up scotty!" since according to the Star Trek lore you are broken down into molecular componenets and put back together to be transported. Why not, if hes also opposed to test tube babies and sperm donations?

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2005
    Location: Among the many
    Quote Originally Posted by Shingro
    Also I think they're all going to remain little girls becauase little girls are the only thing that can easily be cute, innocent and goddamn creepy all at the same time. If a Gatherer was 20 years old, your heart wouldn't "Go out to them" at even close to the same amount, and they'd just be another enemy with a guard on them.
    Conjecture on my part with regards to the age.

    They're Gatherers. Not children or little girls but Gatherers!

  12. #12
    They're Gatherers. Not children or little girls but Gatherers!


    yeah yeah, whatever helps you sleep at night man

    Actually on that topic someone wondered if any Gatherer's were going to be little boys (in some other thread) I'm going to guess that they're all going to be little girls and the storyline rational is going to involve the reproductive organs. Just a guess

  13. #13
    We will find out the Gatherers are shape shifters and they only take on the form of helpless female children when they want to attract a Protector.After all they are sucking down Adam.Are they only retainers without gaining any special abilities?

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: San Jose, CA
    It's going to be interesting playing this game. Everyone will approach the Gatherers in their own way but I like the idea of letting them live and eventually befriending them and getting free Adam from them every so often.

  15. #15
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: Yangon, Burma
    I wonder if you'll still think that when you learn what they're preparing the Adam for.

    (I don't know, but I have a feeling it won't be good for my sympathy of their plight...)


    While I'm posting, thought I'd make this connection. You all may have noticed in Gen'l Gaming forum a link to this game (Rule of Rose), also a horror game with adolescent girls playing a central role. And if you read the interview from the linked post, you'll see some similar thinking with Bioshock in what makes this sort of set up scarier than your typical monster slasher ... EXCEPT for the fact you can DEFINATELY tell which developer is the American one, and which one the Japanese one.
    Last edited by demagogue; 9th Jun 2006 at 20:57.

  16. #16
    Well in theory it's "for" everyone still alive in rapture, since everyone's now dependent on the stuff... Actually, I wouldn't be suprised if they messed with the basic instincts of the children so they NEED (or at least want strongly) to gather as much Adam as possible. A neverending hunger or something perhaps replacing the normal sex drive in an adult human. not exactly a "need" but a very strong "want" (like shelter as opposed to food)

    anyway, yeah instinctual all the way

  17. #17
    Moderator
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: The Doldrums

    Quote Originally Posted by Shingro
    Well in theory it's "for" everyone still alive in rapture, since everyone's now dependent on the stuff... Actually, I wouldn't be suprised if they messed with the basic instincts of the children so they NEED (or at least want strongly) to gather as much Adam as possible. A neverending hunger or something perhaps replacing the normal sex drive in an adult human. not exactly a "need" but a very strong "want" (like shelter as opposed to food)

    anyway, yeah instinctual all the way
    That's what I thought it was going to be, I mean why else would the kids possibly want to go through such horrible acts? They must be biologically changed in some way that this is an endless hunt for Adam for them. I doubt anything could make them want to do that shit other than their own bodies.
    As for what happens after ingesting the stuff, that's a good mystery which Ken has explicitly avoided answering and should make for an interesting discovery.
    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue
    I wonder if you'll still think that when you learn what they're preparing the Adam for.

    (I don't know, but I have a feeling it won't be good for my sympathy of their plight...)
    That's a really good point. I do hope there's more to it than what we know because we've been told a hell of a lot and Ken has a lot of opportunities to add some twists here and there.
    I don't like the idea about the use of Adam by the Gatherers having something to do with their reproductive system, but that's a possiblity I guess.

  18. #18
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Vraptor7
    They must be biologically changed in some way
    Really. Did you figure this out on your own, or did the fact that almost every article on Bioshock mentions that everyone in Rapture is modified tip you off?

  19. #19
    Moderator
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: The Doldrums
    "Really. Did you figure this out on your own, or did the fact that almost every article on Bioshock mentions that everyone in Rapture is modified tip you off?"

    _

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane
    Originally posted by Vraptor: They must be biologically changed in some way that this is an endless hunt for Adam for them.
    Context is your friend, be good to your friends!



    Anyway I don't really like the idea either, but it would tie in so many things, stem cells are generated by the human body pretty much only when you're generating a child, and when you're a ZYGOTE. So Dr. creepyman says, "Aha! I'll just tie the tubing different so while food goes to the normal spot, the ADAM goes to the reproductive organs as though it was a second stomach. Then the ADAM is "re-activated" in the womb using the chemicals and such that are normally present when a child is about."

    horrible, creepy and immoral, but it's not like Rapture plays with kid gloves

    Actually as I was typing that it occured to me it could be something as simple as the stomach instead of producing the normal acids produced some very specific enzymes can somehow distingish from an ADAM cell and a normal cell and seperates them. Once they're seperated she digests the blood and other organic bits and hacks up the ADAM. Of course this would mean without the normal digestive acids she could only subsist on the blood of others, which would also fix the "why are you doing this?" card

    in retrospect that's more likely for the simple fact that Irrational probably doesn't want to get TOO creepy to avoid noise from silly people who do things like protest games

    Of course it doesn't explain why they're all female :/
    Last edited by Shingro; 11th Jun 2006 at 18:43.

  21. #21
    Taking a break
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Quote Originally Posted by Shingro
    horrible, creepy and immoral
    Awesome and fits the theme

    in retrospect that's more likely for the simple fact that Irrational probably doesn't want to get TOO creepy to avoid noise from silly people who do things like protest games
    Come on, killing children is taboo in gaming nowodays. This immediately makes the game M if not AO. I don't think anyone will care anymore than that.

    Of course it doesn't explain why they're all female :/
    "Aha! I'll just tie the tubing different so while food goes to the normal spot, the ADAM goes to the reproductive organs as though it was a second stomach. Then the ADAM is "re-activated" in the womb using the chemicals and such that are normally present when a child is about."

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2005
    Location: Among the many
    Quote Originally Posted by Shingro
    Of course it doesn't explain why they're all female :/
    I think you hit this one earlier - though it's disputable whether killing little boys is any less heinous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shingro
    ...but Gatherers are little girls because killing a little girl is (at least close to) the most reprehensable horrible act a human can do...
    Quote Originally Posted by Shingro
    ...in retrospect that's more likely for the simple fact that Irrational probably doesn't want to get TOO creepy to avoid noise from silly people who do things like protest games
    Remember folks - They're Not little girls, they're Gatherers - no children here - end of story.

  23. #23
    is Best Pony
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: Drowning in my Steam Library
    You think that's going to stop Jack Thompson?

  24. #24
    Political statement? Probably not. Way to force the player to make ethical choices that have little impact on game mechanics? Most definitely!

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2005
    Location: Vantaa, Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew
    You think that's going to stop Jack Thompson?
    Probably not, but we have a strong argument.

    No children here, just Gatherers

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •