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Thread: What drove Karras off the edge?

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2003
    Location: Canberra, Australia
    Agreed, in the Eavesdropping mission you will likely run into two mechanists who have been given the task of trying to waterproof the robots.

  2. #27
    Voice Actor
    Registered: Nov 2004
    Location: South Korea
    Quote Originally Posted by Navyhacker006 View Post
    He invented steam-powered robots, security cameras, and a submarine. Not to mention a metal eye that can interface perfectly with a human brain. These things do not suggest insanity.
    I disagree. Even if he did invented these things (that's another discussion), that indicates intelligence but not sanity. He's a "mad scientist." Karras' behavior seems to fit the profile of a psychopath. The common theory is that malreatment during childhood can cause rare people to become psychopathic. Most of us get over it and grow up, but psychopaths instead learn to "act normal" when it serves their purposes.

    As for the particulars, go play the KOTP series to see how and why Karras split from the hammers. I know FM's are not Canon (pause for reverent silence) but KOTP is good storytelling that fits the known facts.

    Don

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: New Jersey, USA
    I don't know - I don't think Karras was especially psychopathic. I think he had pretty much the same goal that the Trickster did: to destroy opposition to his rising power. I think this is why Karras targeted the wealthy, because they possess most of the power. That doesn't mean he wasn't crazy, but I think of him more as Jim Jones & Jonestown crazy, as opposed to a Ted Bundy type of crazy. He has a messiah complex.

  4. #29
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by Frikkinjerk View Post
    I don't know - I don't think Karras was especially psychopathic.
    And then you go on to list a whole load of reasons that indicate quite strongly that he was a psychopath. GJ

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: New Jersey, USA
    Quote Originally Posted by Strontium Dog View Post
    And then you go on to list a whole load of reasons that indicate quite strongly that he was a psychopath. GJ
    Yea, and you've oversimplified a complex psychiatric disorder to include all categorical instances of insanity, apparently.

  6. #31
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by Frikkinjerk View Post
    Yea, and you've oversimplified a complex psychiatric disorder to include all categorical instances of insanity, apparently.
    Some helpful advice. It is better to not post and have everyone think you are an ignoramus than to post a load of twaddle and confirm the fact. That would include throwing around terms like "psychopath" and "insanity" when you clearly don't know what those terms mean.

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2006
    Location: England (UK)
    I blame the parents for Karras' upbringing.

  8. #33
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    I strongly agree with everything theBlackman said. It was imperative that others did the work for Karras.

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2006
    Location: On the tip of your tongue.
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlackman View Post
    It is more like Karras fostered the experiments that resulted in the inventions, or came up with ideas for them. "Could you/we make a XYZ..." is not the same as doing the research, drafting the plans and constructing the device.
    Yeah, like people who post in the Fan Mission forum saying "Can someone who knows Dromed make XYZ mission cos I think it would be cool!"

  10. #35
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: cesspool
    Heretics! How can you dare to mock the Master???

    Bow to Karras... and the Builder.

  11. #36
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen

    *cough*

    Quote Originally Posted by nicked View Post
    Yeah, like people who post in the Fan Mission forum saying "Can someone who knows Dromed make XYZ mission cos I think it would be cool!"
    You are in ways correct.

    Karras had no super powers guys... No fireball finale.

    The LGS villains were always executed in, unconventional ways.

  12. #37
    Permanently Enlarged
    Registered: Dec 2005
    Location: I could care...but I won't.
    I believe that Karras' "insanity" began in, like the others said, his early childhood. However, i believe that he had problems with his father, he might have been a drunk, abusive, or any combination thereof. This led to Karras developing a severe speech impediment, due to the beatings. His hatred and loathing of his father, combined with his innate distrust and hatred of others, most likely due to bullying, caused him to become moderately antisocial. Because he had a lack of a true father figure, he found refuge in the Hammers, where he found the Builder to be a surrogate father to him. However, he was also quite possibly the subject of ridicule in Hammer society, due to his speech impediment and slight insanity. After a long period of supressing his pent-up aggression, he finally suffered true madness, causing a revolt within the Hammer society, and creating the Mechanists. Since his living father figure was such a failure, he felt the need to prove to himself that he was better than his father, creating his "children", but eventually becoming just as abrasive, and even abusive as his forebearer. However, he was very charismatic, and very intelligent, which combined with his insanity, created a very dangerous person, a Hitler type persona, which enabled him to accumulate massive amounts of followers in a very brief amount of time.

  13. #38
    Karras is a dick. I think some people are just dicks by nature, with no obvious reason for being that way, and Karras is in that category.

    What intrigues me though, is how did Karras manage to found the Mechanist order? How did he gain so many loyal followers? He's got no charisma whatsoever. He's smart but not brilliant. And what you hear of his spritual views is such utter drivel no same person could be taken in by it. Plus, he's a dick.

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2006
    Location: On the tip of your tongue.
    he may not have charisma, but he's smart. All he's got to do is win a few followers based on his genius inventions, and they'll start spreading the word for him. I don't think it would have been hard for him to convert the younger Hammerites - they would feel stifled by the rigid structure of the Hammers and rush to join a seemingly more forward-thinking, positive organisation.

  15. #40
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: cesspool
    I personally think that Karras is a brilliant villain.
    He is enigmatic, original, twisted freak, not your usual Uber monster. When I played T2 for the first time I was VERY afraid of him. Perhaps it was because English isn't my native language and his mumblings seemed to me rather sinister than ridiculous.

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2006
    Location: On the tip of your tongue.
    I think it's a testament to the amazingness of Looking Glass that they didn't go:

    "Yeah, for the last level, lets do a really cool thing where Garrett gets a new robot body and can shoot fireballs and electricity, and then do a big showdown with Karrass reborn in his own mega-battle-suit!"

    How many other game companies would have done that just to make a "cool" ending?

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2006
    Location: England (UK)
    Quote Originally Posted by 242 View Post
    When I played T2 for the first time I was VERY afraid of him.
    You were scared? Karras is as scary as a drunk Benny waving his sword around.

    Deary me.

  18. #43
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Quote Originally Posted by nicked View Post
    How many other game companies would have done that just to make a "cool" ending?
    Right, and that's not all. Just like the Trickster in the first game, Garrett can never actually harm him!

    Quote Originally Posted by themetalian View Post
    Karras is as scary as a drunk Benny waving his sword around.
    Considering that you get to see Karras but a few times throughout the entire game, I believe the missed point had something to do with atmosphere and implications of the unknown.

    *That* is what made LGS great.

  19. #44
    Cuddly little misanthropic hate machine
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: someplace better than this
    Quote Originally Posted by themetalian View Post
    You were scared? Karras is as scary as a drunk Benny waving his sword around.

    Deary me.
    he's got a little bit of that kefka (final fantasy VI villian) feel to him. kefka was crazy, brilliant and twisted too- even moreso than karras was.

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: cesspool
    Quote Originally Posted by themetalian View Post
    You were scared? Karras is as scary as a drunk Benny waving his sword around.

    Deary me.

    Yep, I was really scared. He seemed quite a sinister person to me, and still seems.

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2006
    Wow, I must applaud everybody for giving such detailed thoughts on Karras mental state, it's been quite an interesting read.

    I think he began as a bullied child aswell, and he definently exhibits sociopathic tendencies, ie holding up a facade to everyone that he's just another religious leader while secretly making his servants to kill off everybody, including his own followers. However, his illness could also be the result of oppression during his childhood, parents that perhaps demanded too much from him in terms of studying? (that would also conveniently explain his genious in constructing things)

    As for charisma, Karras would have to have it to gain that many followers to his religion. Also, haven't you people ever noticed that the mechanists generally have a more intelligent set of grammar and cite longer verses of scripture? (or am I wrong?)

    As for the thing that made him snap, perhaps the order of the hammer had a sort of re-awakening after the whole trickster incident in which they tensed up and started reverting more to traditional values.. which would entail cracking down alot harder and more frequently on things deemed heretical.. technology included. Perhaps Karras didn't leave of his own volition, perhaps he was kicked out? (now there's an interesting theory)

    I think the reason that he's got such a heavy speech impediment is due to the fact that they otherwise thought Stephen Russels voice would be recognized both as Garrett and as Karras by the players
    (when I found out about this, I was severely shocked, but after listening to some clips really carefully I can detect some small similarities!)
    But I must admit that I was scared shitless when I was eavesdropping in on the conversation in the mechanist monestary, I was expecting Karras to come walking out of the door at any second! (not to mention that truart also had me spooked alot!) But, the thing that got me really creeped out was when the tone in Karras voice changed to a sort of maniacal tone.. a happy "kill everybody and play around with their blood!" type of voice. Very chilling.

  22. #47
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    How does one become a Hammerite without a genuine calling?

    And with a geuine calling, why would he need something as clicheed as a traumatic childhood to begin having visions where the Builder told him to eradicate all life and replace it with machinery.
    This thread gives me the impression that people think he created his delusions himself as a personal excuse for magalomania, but did you ever consider that he actually thought he was the Builder's Chosen One, and acted out of faith every bit as much as greed?

  23. #48
    Permanently Enlarged
    Registered: Dec 2005
    Location: I could care...but I won't.
    yeah, Karras has to be a friggin genious. I mean, he took a world stuck in about the 600's or so, and created things that were only possible in say the 1950's or so, ie: record players, security cameras with an IFF function, and the like. i also agree somewhat that the Mechanists were kinda like a Generation-X for the Hammers, a bunch of young acolytes who see a lot of possibility, but with no ability to utilize it. To them, Karras was kind of like Charles Manson, or David Korresh, he was extremely brilliant, and very charismatic.

    One question I have is, what happened to Cavador after Karras died? was he killed by the Pagans? did he escape? and what of the other Mechanists that would still litter the streets of the City without thier leader? TDS was so inexplanatory on these things... arrrrrggggg!

    I think, if Cavvy survived, he wouldve gone and gathered the Mechanist remnants, and become Karras' replacement. FM anyone?

  24. #49
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2006
    Location: On the tip of your tongue.
    I think it's pretty clear that upon Karras' death, it would be obvious to everyone what he had intended. The mechanists would realise their whole faith was built on lies and either reject it entirely or perhaps come crawling back to the Hammers. The people of the City may also have rioted and killed a lot of the mechanists when it emerged what had happened. This would also explain why no mechanist buildings are left in TDS - they were razed to the ground.

    As for Cavador:

    "Our friend Cavador just spilled his guts."
    "Not... literally?"
    "It wasn't necessary."

    I don't think the pagans would deliberately kill a living creature, even a mechanist, unless they posed a direct threat. I imagine Cavador may have been released eventually?

  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Quote Originally Posted by nicked View Post
    I don't think the pagans would deliberately kill a living creature, even a mechanist, unless they posed a direct threat. I imagine Cavador may have been released eventually?
    The Pagans only have the one enemy, The Hammers.

    Because the Mechanists *were* moving away from the use of wood, suggesting leniency is interesting.

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