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Thread: Mapping out The City.

  1. #426
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Also remember that some waterways go UG from time to time:
    -Baffords sewers
    -Sealed section mid-N
    -Auldale Gamall's Lair entrance
    -Ambush! Northwestern parts, Marketplace and SW/SE exits
    -Lost City Entrance!

    To put it simply, thanks the turn we managed to make into the River due to Shalebridge/Newmarket, we're having a clear something that the River is going around; namely the hills that I suggested based on the paintings.
    Thus it would seem logical that the canals go either completely exposed alongside the hills (north-south), or half- under half- between while going west-east?
    This logic could help us do a canal-system based on something.


    On a similiar note, Helena Way could actually be a major water-way, as being N-S, going between the hills.

  2. #427
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Fish-face, I was thinking along similar lines ... some areas would be heavily canal-ed, ie OQ, other places not so much, ie Auldale. If city is built on a delta, or a system of rivers, as has been suggested, than the canals would have been created in order to "manage" the flow of water, prevent flooding etc.

    Mugla, we're having enough trouble mapping the city surface, never mind what's underground

    But I agree that it might be useful to form some notion of what is higher and lower ground in the city (Hightowne, Downtowne maybe has a bearing on this?). It's just a matter of providing a framework, really. It is starting to come together now!

    cheers
    str8g8

  3. #428
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    On Downtowne and height, remember that, e.g., the South Downs are actually a set of hills, so Down doesn't always mean low. Perhaps irrelevant, but whatever!

    I think the managing of a delta idea is not a bad one, or at least, the managing of the river mouth. Geographically, the mouth doesn't look like a delta, but managing water flow seems logical, especially with pumping stations and so on.

  4. #429
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2005
    Location: Ontario Canada
    Damn am I glad my teacher didn't make us map out this thing in ArcMap last semester. I think he would of ended up with 20 different versions of the City.

    Oh as for that compass vs map being wrong, well in my experience in forestry has showed me that in 99% of the time the compass is never wrong, unless you're doing sumthing wrong and in that case you usually end up lost somewhere in the dense Canadian wilderness.

    Besides most maps in those days were probably not 100% correct with there directions and placements and were most likely used to give you a general idea of where something would be.

  5. #430
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Down doesn't always mean low
    True, and in this case the implication is also of a poorer district. But it has been suggested before that Hightowne is a richer area, built outside the OQ and looking down on the squalor, so to speak, which I kind of like. And, as Mugla has pointed out the main river changes course at about the right point to back up this theory.

    99% of the time the compass is never wrong
    In Real Life maybe, but as Krypt makes clear, the compass in the game isn't so reliable.

    I'm tempted to point out at this point that if the Docks compass could be misaligned, then so could the compass on the ASSN map, which could mean in turn that the Keeper map could indeed be upside down, eliminating all this messy multiple river stuff, and creating a more balanced city ... but I won't ...

    cheers
    str8g8

  6. #431
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2004
    Location: Ryleth
    Quote Originally Posted by Lamb
    most maps in those days
    What days are these?

  7. #432
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    the olden days, of course

    The map is getting very complicated right now, so I might just post the canal/river system by itself, for clarity's sake, followed by the road network and city wall structure ...

    cheers
    str8g8

  8. #433
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    river network

    This just shows the underlying river\canal network extrapolated from known positions.

    Let me know what you think

    cheers
    str8g8

  9. #434
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2004
    Location: Ryleth
    I really like that!

  10. #435
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Fancy.

    Though you should put some extra notion to Shoalsgate station's moat, Pagan sanctuary's creek and Assassin maps rivers: the one you've got now is from the Keeper map, while the ingame and Assassins suggest that the two rivers have gone either underground, or joined with the last one.

    Also, you have a small canal going through the spot where I thought Rampone's would had been, but then again, we haven't seen the spot you thought of either.


    Also as a wise-ass comment, I'd you to note that you could had finished the underlying road map first, so that you don't need to correct it afterwards. But the same problem would had occured vice versa, no? So a sketch on both first, then these neat versions.


    Waiting for more!

  11. #436
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Shoalsgate moat is present ... it's the sqaurish part (directly above "OLD" and by river... though I think the scale is off here

    Pagan Sanctuary creek is the diagonal section east of T3 SQ, the position is extrapolated from the position of the well in SQ

    Rampone's is where you suggest now, so yes, that canal will have to move slightly.

    The roads, canals, walls are all being worked up at the same time, working out details between them ... the canal system is just more complete at the moment.

    Roads are pretty awkward though. I am working from the keeper map because it delivers the right detail and scale, but we get a real spiders web of roads, which look completely different to the style of road layout in other parts of the map, ie the Framed map, which in turn are different from the style of the T3 maps...

    I'll post more soon
    cheers
    str8g8

  12. #437
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    So the Shoalsgate moat wasn't going around it? Hm.

    The Pagan S. map has a compass pointing north, creek going W-E, with only a small bend in the middle (the part where you sneak past the veggie-Hulk).

    I'd advice using the Assassins in-game streets actually, instead of the shack-village of Keeper-map. It's supposed to be newer, within Garrett-period. (perhaps the area was taken down and rebuilt with proper Hammer-justice, when the Temple emerged next to it? Canals got straightened into one, producing electricity to the new locale. )

  13. #438
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Shoalsgate station is surrounded by the moat on one side, the river on the other, though as I say the scale is clearly off on this version. Maybe you are looking at the wrong bit? It's on the south back of the part of the river that runs W-E

    The Pagan S creek runs W-E on this map as well, just a bit of a diagonal kink in it.

    Now, the problem with Assassins versus Keeper map raises its ugly head again. Possibly you are right. But I really hate the Assassin map , the scale is all wrong - it creates a small city, and we all imagined the city to be bigger, like the keeper map, which has all that detail, it seems wrong to just throw all that information away...



    str8g8

  14. #439
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Now, the problem with Assassins versus Keeper map raises its ugly head again. Possibly you are right. But I really hate the Assassin map , the scale is all wrong - it creates a small city, and we all imagined the city to be bigger, like the keeper map, which has all that detail, it seems wrong to just throw all that information away...
    Oh? Ok. Remember that the Assassins was supposed to be about the same size than Ambush? So whether you'd like it, you would have to go with it. But then again, I never corrected the Assassins scale, so it's merely a place-holder symbol. Feel free to drop the size accordingly, just remember that the locking point is the NE corner, as New market has to be as close to the River/Shalebridge as possible (It's slightly apart because there are some houses in the Keeper-map,...) ...Oh nevermind. I'll post a correction, and you'll see what I meant.


    EDIT:

    Has to be the most abominable map I've made.
    Well, nevertheless, the scale is now correct.
    Notes:
    -The original piece is present so that you see the change.
    -Changed the scale by mostly comparing Farkus' Functionals with the small platform W of Crippled Burrick. Their size is approx. the same. Thus some deviation may be present.
    -The piece of canal that goes throught Assassins seems to originate from Ramirez' moat. One new piece of canal should be so driven through there, another "across" the whole scene.
    -You'll have to re-draw the district lines a bit, but I playtested them and they can be made fit quite easily (Home turf is interpretable).
    -Fudged the Opera house a bit.

    Hope this is satisfactory to your needs.
    Last edited by Mugla; 17th May 2005 at 07:08.

  15. #440
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Remember that the Assassins was supposed to be about the same size than Ambush
    That's the problem ... it's much smaller isn't it? This is just my perception, it's a long time since I played through either level, but I remember the ASSN map being small, at least a quarter the size of AMB ... and yet the keeper map shows the same area to be at least twice the size of AMB, taking the Hammerite Temple as a point of scale.

    It seems as though even after side-stepping the river issue, we are faced with the same old problem of the ASSN map and the keeper map. There's no escape! Arghhh!

    Or ... another possible solution: we ignore the city walls lining up and say that the ASSN map is just a part of the keeper map? since the river and roads never matched up anyway, this wouldn't be too much of a fudge ... and that way we get to use both sources of intel? Plus, we don't directly contradict the experience of the game, just the ASSN hand-drawn map?

    cheers
    str8g8

  16. #441
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Ya, sorry that I "miss-quoted myself." Indeed Assassins is smaller than Ambush. Though I think the scale is only half, not quarter.
    But the wall lines so well, and the streets in KeeperM are just horrible (none of the houses are connected to each other! Illogical! ).
    On the otherhand, the two gardens on both sides aren't in the Keepermap, so could be contested that either the map isn't large enough to depict it, correct enough with the scale of the temple or renowations took place later. Anyways, the temple is only three large rooms long, one large and two slim ones wide. The level seems big mostly because the underground area.
    But that's just few points of views. Added the shack-village interpretation, I think we can "fudge" enough from each corner to make it fit inside the walls, no?

    What about the others? What say you?

    EDIT: Comparison:
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ou/compare.jpg



    njcl: But the front door doesn't highlight!
    Last edited by Mugla; 17th May 2005 at 08:41.

  17. #442
    BANNED
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Heavenly Places
    i say you need to step outside your front door once in a while.......LMFAO.j/k

  18. #443
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    While I'm still working on verifying the latest slew of placements, I thought I'd bump the thread with a suggestion:

    You'll recall earlier that we've discussed perhaps having this project hosted on the Circle. You'll also recall that we've debated a little about the merits of a canonical versus FM inclusive map. All this latest talk about the roads and canals has got me thinking.

    What if, when all's said and done, we make this map interactive via selectable layers? So that with a few clicks of a button, a fan can see just the TDP areas, or maybe the canals and roads together, or perhaps just what's underground, etc. The default setting would be the canonical map, but with just one click you could overlay the FM locations as well.

    Thoughts?

  19. #444
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Doc, that was the intention for the online version, there's simply too much information to display it any other way. Presumably this could be achieved with layers, or flash, though I'm no html expert... be warned though, that the canonical map, ie without anything added, will look rubbish just by itself, with little islands of detail, and big empty spaces.

    But before that I will do a version that is just a simple image, representing the complete project. This is going to be done first, and then I can go on to create the interactive version, or pass it on to someone more skilled in these things...

    cheers
    str8g8

  20. #445
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Couple more street names:

    Willard Square (from the journal) quarter unknown
    Gentry Bouldevard, North Quarter, from a conversation? (couldn't find the ref myself, taken from this thread here.

    edit: found it, it is in the address:

    Captain Blouf
    First City Bank and Trust Guard
    100 Gentry Boulevard, North Quarter

    so, Gentry Boulevard could be either the address of First City Bank and Trust, or the address of Captain Blouf (who has brought the letter in to work?). Thi seems to be the only evidence for putting the bank in NQ in the first place.

    Anyone find any more?

    cheers
    str8g8
    Last edited by str8g8; 19th May 2005 at 12:26.

  21. #446
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    2 more:
    Center Street - note in First City Bank and Trust - North Quarter?
    Carter's Gate - possibly just a part of the Truart Estate

    on Willard Square, it seems that "Raid on Willard Sqare" was going to be a mission in T2 Gold, and the entry in the journal mentions a brothel ... possibly this is intended to be Madame Volari who comes up in T2, as an associate of Truart

    errata:

    Richmond Boulevard, mentioned in Shipping, is possible meant to be overseas
    Castle Morendrum is possibly outside the city too

    cheers
    str8g8

  22. #447
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    The district known as Dayport is so called because of the presence within it of the Bonehoard
    Found this in sneaksiethiefsie's history of the city ... any idea what he is on about? He sounds kind of certain ... is there something we missed?

    str8g8

  23. #448
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    District Unknown
    E. Park Boulevard
    Hawkings Drive
    These 2 streets are where burglaries occurred, inc carriages and a gold crest, which would place them in a better district, ie, Hightowne, Auldale

    Gorn Avenue
    Northcrest Road
    These 2 streets are the sites of criminal damage, Northcrest Rd is the site of a collector tower ... this suggests civil unrest (ie tax collectors being the object of the poor's dissatisfaction) so should maybe be placed in one of the poorer areas, and a long way from the centres of power ... Shalebridge?

    Greevs St
    Courtyard Trail
    Balma Drive
    Kimmel Road
    These roads are reported as sites of Paganism, so should be placed nearby known Pagan hotspots, ie the sanctuary, Docks, Auldale park area etc

    Fort Street - maybe leading up to Fort Ironwood?

    Arlen Street
    North Bisbee St
    Glenover Dr
    These streets are where assualts take place, so again, might be placed in poorer districts, ie OQ, SQ, Shalebridge, Docks ...

    Obviously, this is all speculation, but is still canon, and could be made into the core of our road layout.

    cheers
    str8g8

  24. #449
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Ha! You're coming up with the stuff I posted when I re-played T1-2.

    I don't have the time for that now, so you might as well check my posts right after the listing of the evidence list (after page 12). Though it seems that you no longer need to, really.


    Anyways, the conversation of Bonehoard/Dayport was a speculation, as dayport was some english word for the land mass above a huge set of mined caverns. Bonehoard was thus fitted into these mines somehow, with the exit at a location outside the City or so? Well, if you wish to go with this interpretation, you could squeeze a small piece of mountain inbetween Auldale and Eastport, and place Bonehoard there.
    On the otherhand, we have west and east side already, so a middle "day" port isn't that bad an interpretation either, no?


    EDIT:
    Fort street? The small piece of a street that suddenly ends where FIW's graveyard is? Goes "by" the Keeper Compound? Just a suggestion.

  25. #450
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Anyways, the conversation of Bonehoard/Dayport was a speculation, as dayport was some english word for the land mass above a huge set of mined caverns. Bonehoard was thus fitted into these mines somehow
    Right, I remember ... I always thought that was a bit of a ropey theory actually ... I prefer where we have it.

    The small piece of a street that suddenly ends where FIW's graveyard is? Goes "by" the Keeper Compound?
    That or the major road that leads to the bridge possibly ...

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