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Thread: Mapping out The City.

  1. #26
    crunchy
    Guest

    Slightly OT: In Cragscleft and the coversation between the Priest and the novice they talk about a knife. Was that from the Sheminar? (spelling?)

  2. #27
    Grundbegriff
    Guest

    Originally posted by belboz:
    There's clearly a very large river either flowing through the city or to one side of it in several of the animation brieffings you get before a mission. There's one with a ship on it.
    Which briefings, exactly? I just ran through all the briefings for both games and saw nothing like this. The only briefing with a clear nautical theme was the one with the cetus amicus.

    And the keepers table in the Old Quarter has a map ingraved upon its surface and there's a river marked on that flowing through the city.
    The area shown on the Keepers' Table corresponds to the accessible area in Assassins. Clearly, that may be the Old Town, but it is by no means the complete City. Thus, the "river...flowing through the city" on that map is the small canal that Garrett encounters in Assassins. This canal theme is revisited in Ambush and Courier. Clearly, the City has canals. It probably opens eastward onto a harbour that leads to the sea, or onto the mouth (or delta) of a very large river.

    Cheers,

    G.

    ------------------
    Cutpurse-in-Chief, CLAN Larcenio Haul
    Check out the Best of the TTLG Thief Forum
    I'm tired of some....

  3. #28
    Naartjie
    Guest

    Originally posted by Grundbegriff:Which briefings, exactly? I just ran through all the briefings for both games and saw nothing like this. The only briefing with a clear nautical theme was the one with the cetus amicus
    Ye taffer....the one before Sabotage at Soulforge. A big, swaying ship passes under the bridge Garrett is walking over, clanging bells as it goes, just before the Keeper catches up with him.

    Naartjie

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  4. #29
    Grundbegriff
    Guest

    Originally posted by Naartjie:
    Ye taffer....the one before Sabotage at Soulforge.
    A two-second glimpse in a single briefing is a rather different matter than belboz's "clearly... in several briefings".

    A big, swaying ship passes under the bridge Garrett is walking over
    Thanks, Naartjie.

    Here's an image of the animation in question:


    It seems to me that this boat is clearly a small shrimping or fishing boat, not a "big, swaying ship". It's true, however, that Garrett is on a bridge that spans a broad waterway. The bridge appears to be high enough to allow medium-sized cargo or war ships to pass beneath, but not high enough to permit the large ones.

    While it seems to me likely that the east side of the city has a port with docks onto a harbor leading to the sea, it would likewise make sense for a river to feed into the sea at that point, and for the canals to feed into one or both.

    Whaddya think?

    G.

    ------------------
    Cutpurse-in-Chief, CLAN Larcenio Haul
    Check out the Best of the TTLG Thief Forum
    I'm tired of some....

    [This message has been edited by Grundbegriff (edited February 05, 2001).]

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: Netherlands

    Originally posted by Grundbegriff:
    It seems to me that this boat is clearly a small shrimping or fishing boat, not a "big, swaying ship". It's true, however, that Garrett is on a bridge that spans a broad waterway. The bridge appears to be high enough to allow medium-sized cargo or war ships to pass beneath, but not high enough to permit the large ones.
    If I could have some input on this matter….

    My personal opinion on the bridge Groundbegriff is that it shouldn’t be taken that seriously. The bridge and the passing ship are something not to be remembered ! I mean it’s something similar to Garrett having a different face in various cut scenes in Thief: the Metal Age ( I can remember a thread being dedicated to this matter a few days ago). Perhaps in some other cut scenes the bridge would have a different height and would look a bit different ? Although not so likely it would be a good thing if the Thief 3 team should somehow put some “official” resources on the Thief world (the areas that have been previously mentioned in this topic). Maybe something in form of a large map.

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  6. #31

    Here's my updated ascii map, copied from my message in the thread
    The City and its Districts
    http://www.ttlg.com/forums/cgi-bin/u...&f=14&t=006794


    \ |
    \ North \
    \ Quarter \____________
    |---------------| =
    \ | \ Wayside Docks =
    |Shalebridge| Old Quarter __\___ =
    | .-----'| . . ./ ( =
    \ ' |______' (-----------+
    \/ HighTowne/ \ DownTowne } =
    \ / New ; / Eastport =
    \______| Market/| ,/ =
    New | _/ \____ / =
    Quarter | / \___/-\ =
    \___/ \ =
    | South \ =
    | Quarter '---------=
    / / =
    / / Dayport =
    =


    [ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: Grundbegriff ]

  7. #32
    Saturnine
    Guest

    Good work Grundbegriff and works out nicely for me too,
    If a map is going to be made can I place the Saturnine estate from The Seventh Crystal on the border of HighTowne and ShaleBridge? The reason being that I have placed the High Court building in the general area of the city guard station (which would become Shoalsgate) and in my FM there is a street sign to the High Court just outside the Saturnine estate, so its close.
    Cheers

  8. #33
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Yorkshire, UK

    This is nit-picking i know, since the City is fictional, but on the subject of Dayport, I decided to look 'day' up in a dictionary. There was one interesting entry saying that 'day' can mean the ground surface above a mine. I'm not saying this is the case, but if Day in Dayport refers to an area that was above a mine, I would expect it to be further inland - we never actually see the coast in Dayport anyway. It could be it is on the coast, or maybe further upstream on the backs of a large river in the City. Just my thoughts.
    Always Remember Rule One:
    Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men!
    --Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time

  9. #34
    TheWatcher
    Guest

    Originally posted by Oliver Gregory:
    I'm not saying this is the case, but if Day in Dayport refers to an area that was above a mine, I would expect it to be further inland
    Not necessarily. A lot of the old Tin mines in the Cornwall/Devon area of the UK have shafts which run out under the sea floor for considerable distances. Many of them have entance shafts and buildings very close to the cliff edges.

  10. #35

    Originally posted by Oliver Gregory:
    'day' can mean the ground surface above a mine.
    That's a fairly obscure and specialized usage. More naturally, one would expect a "Dayport" to be a port that faces the sun.

    if Day in Dayport refers to an area that was above a mine, I would expect it to be further inland - we never actually see the coast in Dayport anyway.
    Certainly a mine would more likely be inland than by the sea or by a river. But two questions arise. First, how far inland could Dayport be before it's no longer in the City? Second, if a "guy named Valencia" who's "some kind of diamond exporter" had "just entered Dayport" and would only be "there for a couple of days", would that situation fit with the idea of Dayport as a (diamond?) mine?

    To the first question, I think the phrase "while he's in town" in Garrett's tip shows that Valencia is in Dayport and that Dayport is in the City (rather than, say, the foothills).

    To the second question, it seems to me that a diamond exporter who shipped diamonds from a mine in an "inland Dayport" would be a long-term resident rather than a short-term visitor. Likewise, such a person would already have a routine facility for storing diamonds and wouldn't need to use the Traders' Bank.

    I suppose we could argue that Don Valencia exports diamonds to overseas destinations from various domestic locations including the City and that he routinely uses the Traders' Bank. But then we end up wondering what kind of "port" lies inland and why a Traders' Bank would set up shop near a mining tract rather than by a busy coastal port.

    or maybe further upstream on the backs of a large river in the City.
    I'm no expert on mining, but a site near a riverbed seems no more amenable to mining than a site by the sea does. Ground water is ground water!

    One further consideration is the fact that the crime warden Webster's turf covers the Wayside Docks, Eastport, and Dayport.

    [ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: Grundbegriff ]

  11. #36
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Yorkshire, UK

    Yes I agree Grundbegriff, but concerning Valencia, I didn't mean the mines were operational in the time of thief 2.

    On more thinking, something that puzzles me:

    "I used to have a nice view of the mountatins. I used to watch the Sun rise with my wife, every morning, but now that metal monstrosity casts a permanent shadow over my house."

    This seems to indicate that the mountains are to the east, where the Sun rises, not the docks and sea. The guard was unable to see the mountains and the sun rising after Angelwatch was built - so it has blocked the view to what i assume are inland mountains.

    This may be because the docks and sea are east of the City, and it is built upon the Western side of a bay, or it is more likely in my opinion that the sea is either to the north or south, accounting for 'Eastport' - it is the most easterly section of docks:
    (forgive poor diagram


    wayside--------------dayport-------------eastport---
    sea=================================================
    mountains to east-->

    Since, as you said Grundy, Dayport would be further south, I think that the Sea is to the south of the City.
    Any thoughts/suggestions?

    P.S. I just looked at shipping and receving - the sea is to the south in that mission.

    [ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: Oliver Gregory ]
    Always Remember Rule One:
    Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men!
    --Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time

  12. #37
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2000
    Location: Brittyland!

    I imagined the city to be like this


    Some parts are like G's ASCii map but I think that some parts, like Hightowne being so close to the old quarter in G's map, are better in that. And it also makes sense with Shipping and Recievings coastline.
    As for the thing on there being a river, there's a bridge in Thief I's ending sequence.

    [ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: ACT SMILEY ]

    [ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: ACT SMILEY ]

  13. #38
    BANNED
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Ohio, the U.S.

    Wow.

    But THIEF IS NOT SET IN OUR UNIVERSE!!

    So Sharga, it would NOT be England. That's all I have to say.

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2000
    Location: ttLg

    Umm, no, Thief is not England, but if it happened there, we can assume its possible in other places, like the world of thief.

  15. #40
    BANNED
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Ohio, the U.S.

    What's possible?

  16. #41

    Originally posted by Oliver Gregory:
    "I used to have a nice view of the mountains. I used to watch the Sun rise with my wife, every morning, but now that metal monstrosity casts a permanent shadow over my house." ... P.S. I just looked at shipping and receving - the sea is to the south in that mission.
    Good detective work, OG. So then, how about this for a revised map:

    \ \ R~i~v~e~r
    \ North \ R~i~v~e~r
    \ Quarter \ R~i~v~e~r
    |-------------------\ R~i~v~e~r
    \ | \ R~i~v~e~r
    |Shalebridge| Old Quarter _______\ R~i~v~e~r
    | .-----'| . . ./ \ R~i~v~e~r
    \ ' |______' } R~i~v~e~r
    \/ HighTowne/ \ DownTowne { R~i~v~e~r
    \ / New ; ; R~i~v~e~r
    \______| Market/| ] R~i~v~e~r
    New | _/ \____ / R~i~v~e~r
    Quarter | / \___/--------\ R~i~v~e~r
    \___/ \ \ R~i~v~e~r
    | South \ \ R~i~v~e~r
    | Quarter | \ R~i~v~e~r
    \ | / \ R~i~v~e~r
    \ /;_______-------_____/ Eastport \R~i~v~e~r MOUNTAINS-->
    \ _/ / = ~~~ ~ \
    Wayside \_____." | = ~~~ ~~ \
    Docks \ | = ~~~ ~~ ~~ \
    \ Dayport | = ~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ {
    = ================\ | = ~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ;
    = ~ ~~~~ ~~~ ==========\ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ /
    = ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~ {__
    = ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~~ )
    === ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~~~~



    [ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: Grundbegriff ]

  17. #42

    Originally posted by ACT SMILEY:
    but I think that some parts, like Hightowne being so close to the old quarter in G's map, are better in that.
    But the map on the Keeper Table in the Grotto in HAUN actually shows HighTowne adjacent to the Old Quarter.

  18. #43
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Yorkshire, UK

    Nice, that map looks better Grundy
    But what is on the other side of the river? The briefing for Saboutage at Soulforge shows that the City is on boths sides of the river.
    Always Remember Rule One:
    Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men!
    --Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time

  19. #44

    Originally posted by Oliver Gregory:
    The briefing for Saboutage at Soulforge shows that the City is on boths sides of the river.
    It shows that both banks are developed, but it doesn't necessarily show that The City is on both banks. Perhaps, as with several paired cities in Real LifeTM, another town is on the other side of the River.

    Another possibility is that the area across the river is developed as part of the City, but consists of more of Eastport, etc.

    Still another possibility is that we're seeing both sides of one of the canals rather than of the River. I included a screen capture from that briefing/cutscene in one of the earlier messages.

    G.

    [ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: Grundbegriff ]

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: In the shadows next to your co

    Of course, I believe that most of these maps have forgotten that Shalebridge is to the northeast of Garrett's neighborhood.

    A la "Ambush!"

    Gee, that post is too small
    "And again, he says to me, 'Be silent!' and begins to weep.
    So I ease his suffering, and then say, 'Poor pathetic man. You need not wallow, for the next sound you'll hear, will be the THUMP of your severed cranium hitting the floor.'

  21. #46

    Originally posted by The True Taffer:
    Of course, I believe that most of these maps have forgotten that Shalebridge is to the northeast of Garrett's neighborhood.
    Not at all. As long as we maintain that Garrett has one apartment in Assassins and another in Ambush (which is a reasonable inference), there's no problem with the assumption that Ambush and Trace the Courier take place in the New Quarter, southwest of Shalebridge.

  22. #47
    The Architect
    Registered: Dec 1998
    Location: Lyon

    Awesome ...

  23. #48
    Member
    Registered: Jul 1999
    Location: Los Angeles, CA

    So Garrett has two apartments! No wonder he's always getting into trouble when it comes to money and landlords. But I suppose it is actually a wise decision because he is open to a larger range of oppertunities.

    I suppose Mossy Glade takes place somewhere beyond the mountains.

  24. #49

    The Potted Plant has struck a major chord in the mapping procedure here. Because Thief is in a fantasy setting, we have no guarantee that the solar, lunar, stellar, hemispherical, and magnetic mechanics are the same as they are on earth.

    The only thing certain is that the compass and map navigation system is still set up "NESW", and that because the north tip of the compass is red, one can assume that the compass points north (instead of pointing south). However, one can't be sure if the compass is pointing to a seperate "magnetic north" or if "true north" and "magnetic north" are the same on "planet Thief". I'm guessing that they are, as the north on a map matches exactly to the north on a compass (perhaps they could add a magnetic delcination factor to Thief III on expert mode to add to the challenge ).

    There's nothing that indicates that the sun and moon rise in the east in Thief: they could very well rise elsewhere. There's also nothing to indicate what hemisphere the city is located on, assuming the rules are the same as earth.




    I can't think of anymore data to add to the maps that have been made so far, but here are some more things to look at:
    [*]Check the cutscene at the end of Trail of Blood. In it, there's a Pagan-style map of the City, and Larkspur mentions "two losses in Dayport, and one in the Old City." Perhaps someone could extract some information from this conversation and crude map.
    [*]Listen to the servants in Bafford's Manor. The woman comments about the river being low, and there is some name/location information after it that I can't remember.

    Hopefully, the Thief III manual will have a simple map of the City inside the cover.

  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Yorkshire, UK

    Originally posted by Munin the Raven:
    [QB][*]Check the cutscene at the end of Trail of Blood. In it, there's a Pagan-style map of the City, and Larkspur mentions "two losses in Dayport, and one in the Old City." Perhaps someone could extract some information from this conversation and crude map.

    QB]
    Nah, you can't tell anything from that map.
    Always Remember Rule One:
    Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men!
    --Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time

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