Mapping out The City.

[MorbusG]

The problem is, that whatever you guys come up with, no one has any reason to accept. Everyone has the perfect right to say 'who the hell do they think they are?'

This is self-evident.

I think it's better to let FM authors come up with their own names and places to fit their stories, than try to force your names on them.
You may as well try to come up with the names and addresses of everyone who lives in the city, instead of let FM authors choose their own characters.

As far as I can see, there hasn't been any restrictions in that way. Ie. There's plenty of room for FM districts/quarters/areas. What we're trying to do is put together the original games info in such a way that everyone can accept. And indeed, whoever doesn't accept it is free to pop in and tell their opinions. It's not like this thread is forbidden to but a few people.

I can't see when there has been forcing of names. Sola mentioned something about Calendra missions location in Old quarter I think. Is that what you meant? I agree with you that it should be left to FM authors where to put their missions, *after* there has been agreement with the original game data so there is at least some kind of map to present them with.
If you mean the potterr's GarrettLoader, then you might see that this thread doesn't have anything to do with it directly, and you should contact him with your opinion rather than this thread.

[Mugla]

Alright, I'm back. Again... Let's get this thread back on trail, 'kay?


To clarify things a bit, here's where we are currently:

Even though the thread started as a simple list of the districts in the City, it has since expanded into a full-scale map-project.
I think first and foremost, we should do a completely canon map, of which anyone can then derive/add to a map of their liking. If we leave/alter some crucial evidence behind, someone will complain, and the map wont serve the full of the community.
Since Krypt tipped in, it has been clear that the dev-team didn't stick to the map 100% of the time. This can be seen from the earlier inconsistencies too. So, all we can do is try to sticth the thing as best we can, and as a last resort as I've suggested already, make a few 'alternatives' visible in the end-product (.pdf layers that show where for example Garrett's home could be located).
The speculations on location-names will be a mere frosting on the cake (an optional "frosting"-layer in the .pdf), if they wont interfere with the actual canon.


So, back to the map, then.
str8g8: I meant the second-latest map , the one just before you dropped Ambush! down to the docks.

I think we are again in a turning point here. All the evidence might atlast be present, and the most obvious intepretations/versions have been discovered. To find out which version(s) plays out the best, we need a full-scale representation of each, taking all the evidence into account.

If we'd have a raw map with all the district/street/house -names and the connections between places (Newmarket-Shalebridge connection from the peasant conversation for ex.), then everyone could show their versions of the map.
This one seems to be in small, transferrable bits, but lacks some of the latest additions.


What do you think? After this we could atlast start fine-tuning the map, and decide how to represent it. For example, we could add the aforementioned speculations layer and the alternatives layers, with due explanations on each case, and fan-mission layer that then shows where each thought their areas would be.

EDIT: I think MorbusG hit the spot better than I did in his above post. We do what we can, and people use it as they please. Atleast we did something they can build their own work upon.

[MorbusG]

If we'd have a raw map with all the district/street/house -names and the connections between places (Newmarket-Shalebridge connection from the peasant conversation for ex.), then everyone could show their versions of the map.

Seeing my version eventually became very much like str8g8's, I don't see a reason presenting it.
I'm giving green light for the river bending and shalebridge location as long as there is the shalebridge road connection, which there is ATM.

I would have one question
I could have missed the reasoning behind it (and if so, sorry!), but why are eastport & dayport so, that dayport isn't more to east? (angelwatch conversation in S&R: "view of the mountains, watch the sunrise")

[Mugla]

Well, at the time when we chose those placings, Dayport had two alternatives; west of Wayside, and where it is now.

Of the two, the current one is indeed closer. Why it isn't even beyond Eastport, well... We can see mountains already in some cutscenes from the west-side pretty clearly, and with the current layout, Eastport is indeed more east, allowing more playground with the history (we would have to come up with excuses and explanations for the origin of Eastport and why is it the nexus of the new-found mechanist order. The idea was that the industrial revolution that Karras sprung expanded the City east-wards, away from the old center of the hammerite-power, the centrum.)

These are somewhat vague points in my opinion, so in a way, no reason at all. Convenience on the other hand...

[str8g8]

Heh, he's nothing if not entertaining, is he ?

Well, just to set the record straight, in case anyone gets the wrong impression reading these last few pages:

We are not trying to impose a map on anyone.
Quite the contrary in fact. For a start, FM authors are free to ignore the map completely. How could we impose it, even if we wanted to? If they choose to use it however, they have the benefit of being able to situate their work within the overall scheme of all 3 games, without trying to figure all this stuff out independently. And if authors do use it then there will be better continuity between FMs. And in future this information can be incorporated back into the map.

So, far from imposing anything, the map is a community project, made by and for the people who make and play the FMs.

We are not inventing place names
If we do add a couple of things in the future (like the names of the Bridges) then they will be clearly differentiated from the 'canon' material in the final map.

Just wanted to make that clear.

cheers
str8g8

[str8g8]

Dayport and Eastport

41. "I used to have a nice view of the mountatins. I used to watch the Sun rise with my wife, every morning, but now that metal monstrosity casts a permanent shadow over my house." on account of Angelwatch(S&R dock-guard, T2)

It's true that their current locations are interchangeable in many ways. It seemed to make sense that Eastport would be the eastern-most of the two. However, it is possible to argue that it in its present location the "view of the mountains" implies that Dayport is the eastern-most district. This should be considered, I think, as there is not much knock-on effect either.

More generally, my vote goes for this version of the map which maintains Shalebridge, but moves Ambush.

cheers
str8g8

[Solabusca]

Once again, then, it appears we reach that impasse - how can Garret's path in Ambush be justified, especially when it refers to a Shalebridge gate, when Shalebridge is fully north and four subsections (OQ, SM, DT, OQ) and a river away? I'm guessing you're going to have to add bridge there, too. He's going to be running quite a time, dodging patrols all the way through these areas, and coming AWFULLY close to Shoalsgate.

Like I said, I still think the most elegant solution to that problem is the one I've posited - and I've supported it with both in-game notes and dialogue.

What I'd really like is some supporting documentation or in-game transcripts of your own to show why your arrangement is the best, or direct me to where it's been discussed, because the current location of Shalebridge is right out of the realm of possibility as a quick and easy getaway in my eyes.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I do need some further proofs than 'Well, it can go there 'cause it doesn't mess up my other arrangements' - and right at this moment, that's all I've been able to establish as a reason.

.j.

[str8g8]

It's not really an impasse Sol, we are just stating out positions. If I am in the minority here then I will bow to the consensus. Hopefully we can all do the same, otherwise little odd's prophecy will be proved correct.

But we should take a closer look at that map, I think:

First off, it doesn't say "Shalebridge Gate", it says Old Gate. I don't think Shalebridge Gate is mentioned anywhere, except on this thread and in error.

Shalebridge is indicated by arrows pointing off to the north-east. To me that indicates that Shalebridge is NOT directly adjacent but separated by some other district, or at the very least more of SQ (but if just more SQ, then why is there a wall, gate etc). Think about it; if Shalebridge were on the other side of the gate, it would just be labelled as so, without any need for arrows. Clearly some distance is involved.

Also of importance is Shalebridge Road. It forms a direct link to OQ and allows us to speculate on the naming of Shalebridge Cradle (which seems to be the only point of making Shalebridge part of OQ anyway).

Your solution is elegant, I agree, but it rests on a fundamental sleight-of-hand, a presumption that Shalebridge is a small sub-section of Old Quarter, a leap of faith for which there is a startling lack of in-game evidence.

Of the two fudges, 1. Shalebridge Cradle gets it's name from Shalebridge Road, or 2. Shalebridge is not a Quarter but a small sub-section of OQ, 2. is the biggest fudge. The onus, surely, is on you to show why this should be so.

cheers
str8g8

[Solabusca]

Your solution is elegant, I agree, but it rests on a fundamental sleight-of-hand, a presumption that Shalebridge is a small sub-section of Old Quarter, a leap of faith for which there is a startling lack of in-game evidence.

Of the two fudges, 1. Shalebridge Cradle gets it's name from Shalebridge Road, or 2. Shalebridge is not a Quarter but a small sub-section of OQ, 2. is the biggest fudge. The onus, surely, is on you to show why this should be so.

Please do not use that tactic. You cannot say that your handwaves have more validity, especially considering that the single one of many you've used to cement your view has FOUR sections of the city and a remarkably wide river between the two locations, as well as having Shalebridge (which, as you pointed out, is NE of SQ) to the NORTHWEST. Yours is NOT the obvious answer, and only exists as a result of much trickery, sleight-of-hand, outright handwaving and ignoring information that exists.

I've requested some clarification in how you came to decide it. You've declared that Stonemarket and Downtowne are subsections of the OQ, but somehow find my solution questionable.

Here, once more, is my hard evidence:

1) AMB map - indicates South Quarter has Shalebridge to the NE.

2) AMB Objectives - the final two objectives that open up after reaching your home are as follows:
* Several members of the City Watch are waiting for you in your apartment. You need to find shelter elsewhere and there's no better place than Shalebridge. The only snag - you have to sneak into your home and get the gate key you keep hidden in the secret compartment in your bedroom closet.

* After you get the gate key, proceed to Shalebridge. Between the Sheriff's patrols and the guard post at the main gate, it's not going to be as easy as it sounds. Ed. note: How can someone NOT read this as going through the main gate to Shalebridge? More to the point, given that he's worried about patrols, why would he cross the entire bloody city?

... is it really a handwave to go through the Shalebridge Gate to get to Shalebridge, as opposed to crossing the city?

3) OQ city map in TDS is obviously not the same area as explored in THC - but rather an inhabited area nearby. One of my past suggestions was that Fort Ironwood serves as a buffer between the Barricades and the Old Quarter we know. I'm not putting that forward again, but allow me to point one thing out - the section we explore DOES CONTAIN a building referred to as... the SHALEBRIDGE CRADLE. This section, in my solution, would exist in a fairly straight line NE of South Quarter.

4) Per in-game conversation. Newmarket is supposed to be across *a* river from SB. As in, you walk across the river to Newmarket. Not walk across the river through undead infested areas or another Nobles Quarter (Hightowne) to get to Newmarket. You've handwaved and decided that 'across the river' doesn't really mean across the river - and why would Newmarket be impacted at all, given that Hightowne (a nobles district), is DIRECTLY ACROSS from SB in your map.

5) Garret refers to the canal he dives into in LOST as ... you got it, a River. I've further shown on the TDS map where it is very possible to SEE these rivers.

6) The cutscene at the beginning of LOST indicates that a westward flowing river exists in the area you've deemed Newmarket (Assassins map). Whether it is Lost City or current City is still up for debate, and has not reached general consensus - in either case, it could very well be the river discussed in the servant conversation.

Thus I support my stance. Further evidence, I'm sure, is available.

Now, my friend - what evidence can you provide to support your stance? In your arguement you've had to handwave just about everything - the geography of the River, the name of a street, the existence of a new area to the north of your River bearing the same name as a street in the Old Quarter, the creation of new 'sub-neighbourhoods' around the Assassins map, to the point of absorbing an established Quarter from TDS, and the fact that two areas that are supposedly near enough to cross to are instead several neighbourhoods apart.

My solution only requires that the area around Shalebridge Road be called... Shalebridge.

Tell me where I'm incorrect. Tell me where I've had to repeatedly and constantly handwave by playing with the geography of the area.

.j.

[ADDENDUM: On the nature of Shalebridge Road - why would you have the section of the city referred to as Shalebridge QUITE SO FAR AWAY from a road bearing the same name, especially one near a bridge that we can infer may be SHALEBRIDGE iteself? Now your fudge not only necessitates creating a road and a district, but also necessitates coming up with a reason that it be called SHALEBRIDGE district in the first place. Which means you've have to add another bridge to the equation - wheras with the location as I suggest it only has one 'fudge', and is a conceit that you use several times in your map with your decisions re: the Assassins map and the neighbourhoods of HT and NM.

Therefore - a list of your 'fudges' must be expanded to include all of them.

1) There's a road in the OQ that is called Shalebridge
2) The OQ is a sprawling area made up of several small neighbourhoods - Stonemarket, Downtown, The Barricades and undefined areas that sprawl down the entire west side of the City - which, in and of itself has no basis in in-game canon. It actually counters in-game information, to wit:
3) Stonemarket is PART OF the Old Quarter, in spite of the fact that it exists whole-sale on it's own in TDS.
4) Shalebridge is found to the N-NW of South Quarter, but has nothing else in common with the road named after it in the Old Quarter.
5) The River curves to allow SB to be 'across the river' from NM, even though it's across the river from OQ and HT in this case. Remember, we have absolutely NO IN-GAME BASIS for this, beyond your sense of aesthetics and desire to twist geography to suit your needs.

My 'fudge' does not entail ignoring or handwaving a wide range of known information, nor does it entail creating a new area or even including a bend in the river that, while aesthetically pleasing, has no root in in-game knowledge.

It merely suggests that the area around Shalebridge Road (upon which the cradle rests), is referred to as Shalebridge.]

[Mugla]

Well put together, Sol.
Should be said, some of those points were countered earlier in a 'hand-waving' manner, but half-adequetely anyways. The other points and the whole conclusion though... It seems like a valid option.


I'm sorry, I have to think on this later. I think both have ground here, and this might become a two-alternatives map. We'll see.

[str8g8]

Well, I think you have glossed over a few points there, Sol, so just to be fair:

1) AMB map - indicates South Quarter has Shalebridge to the NE.

Check, this is consistent with both maps.

* After you get the gate key, proceed to Shalebridge. Between the Sheriff's patrols and the guard post at the main gate, it's not going to be as easy as it sounds

That's a good point. But see my earlier post regarding the way Shalebridge is marked on the map with arrows, inidicating some distance between the gate and Shalebridge (ie. "This way to Shalebridge")

3) OQ city map in TDS is obviously not the same area as explored in THC

Check, that seems to be the consensus. But it doesn't relate to the matter in hand either way.

4) Per in-game conversation. Newmarket is supposed to be across *a* river from SB

Check, both maps would show this (with different rivers being the one in question). All the evidence you provide to proove that the river\canal in Assassins! is a river is irrelevant, we know it's a river, that isn't the problem.

My solution only requires that the area around Shalebridge Road be called... Shalebridge.

With respect, it doesn't just require this, it requires that we ignore the fact that the T3 City Map and the Keeper map and the Assassin map all miss out this particular nugget.

On to our fudges:

1) There's a road in the OQ that is called Shalebridge

Shalebridge Road is not a fudge, it is documented - check the Ambush map - we have inferred where it might extend, while you are implying we just made it up!

2) The OQ is a sprawling area made up of several small neighbourhoods ...

I don't have a problem with it sprawling. You're the only one here who has expressed this opinion. And how does moving Shalebridge stop it sprawling? It doesn't.

3) Stonemarket is PART OF the Old Quarter, in spite of the fact that it exists whole-sale on it's own in TDS

This is not necessary for our layout, it was idle speculation on my part, that's all. Stonemarket can be a Quarter in it's own right just as easily - it's your posiiton that rests solely on the possibility of sub-sections etc.

5) The River curves to allow SB to be 'across the river' from NM ... we have absolutely NO IN-GAME BASIS for this, beyond your sense of aesthetics and desire to twist geography to suit your needs.

Whoa there. This was part of the gradual evolution of the map, in fact I think you can trace the bend back to Mugla initially ... so don't try and make this personal, ok? If we make it personal we will never agree. However, I take your point ... it is a little "creative".

In short, you may be right (now I've said it, can you do the same I wonder?)

As Mugla said, it seems a valid option at this point in time ... but let's wait and see what kind of consensus emerges.

cheers
str8g8

[Solabusca]

Now for rebuttals.

That's a good point. But see my earlier post regarding the way Shalebridge is marked on the map with arrows, inidicating some distance between the gate and Shalebridge (ie. "This way to Shalebridge")

That's YOUR interpretation of it - it does nothing of the sort to me. It just means that Shalebridge is in this direction off the map - something that doesn't jibe with your current map.

Check, that seems to be the consensus. But it doesn't relate to the matter in hand either way.

Of course it does - your Old Quarter either incorporates the smaller neighbourhoods I've already mentioned, or twists around them in an illogical fashion - I'm simply stating what you've presented in your 'simplified district' map, where Stonemarket and Downtowne all fall into Old Quarter (or are not seperated, in any case)

With respect, it doesn't just require this, it requires that we ignore the fact that the T3 City Map and the Keeper map and the Assassin map all miss out this particular nugget.

How so? The Keeper and Assassins maps don't mention South Quarter OR Shalebridge. The T3 City Map is missing reference to Newmarket, DownTowne, Hightowne or any of the other pre-existing districts - because it focuses on places where the action takes place.

Shalebridge Road is not a fudge, it is documented - check the Ambush map - we have inferred where it might extend, while you are implying we just made it up!

Completely inaccurate - I agree with the existence of Shalebridge road, and have stated that it in turn leads to a neighbourhood called Shalebridge. You've inferred that this road is seperated by the bulk of the city from the district bearing it's name.

I don't have a problem with it sprawling. You're the only one here who has expressed this opinion. And how does moving Shalebridge stop it sprawling? It doesn't.

The current map solved the sprawling by handwaving Stonemarket et al into the same region. Without that, it becomes far too tenuous to spread around other districts.

This is not necessary for our layout, it was idle speculation on my part, that's all. Stonemarket can be a Quarter in it's own right just as easily - it's your posiiton that rests solely on the possibility of sub-sections etc.

Except if this were the case, the current OQ would completely fall apart, and would end up being split into two sections - the small ribbon of OQ by the second bridge... well, why would it be OQ and not SM?

Whoa there. This was part of the gradual evolution of the map, in fact I think you can trace the bend back to Mugla initially ... so don't try and make this personal, ok? If we make it personal we will never agree. However, I take your point ... it is a little "creative".

I'm not the one who minimalized or ignored a long string of 'handwaves' and placed the 'onus of evidence' upon me. I've provided my evidence. You have yet to do the same. But please don't feel it's personal - I respect many of the things you've done with this map, and the labour of love that it's become for all of us. I'm doing my best to argue this because I feel it's the right path.

In short, you may be right (now I've said it, can you do the same I wonder?)

Unfortunately, I cannot. Again, there has been nothing presented to me as evidence to make me believe that you could be right. The only 'proof' I have been offered is that this is how things have evolved. In short: THERE HAS BEEN NO EVIDENCE PRODUCED AT ALL. The current placement (I only use the term 'yours' because you're the one who has made this particular incarnation of the map) is only possible if one takes great liberties with the river and other existing geographies - and not even then, because Newmarket is not across the river from Shalebridge in any meaningful sense, but is rather adjacent and surrounded by two other areas, OQ and HT - whereas mine works regardless of us leaving the large river straight or curving it.

.j.

[Dark Arrow]

I think I'll stick my head in on this:

1. I'm not sure that the Ambush map shows that Shalebridge is far away. The arrows could be pointing to the center of the district. I assumed that Shalebridge is beyond that gate, but I see the difficulty of it being there as I look at the maps.

2. Is the Hag's map considered non canon? This is mainly because of the location of the docks receptable. The mark seems to be in the center of the district instead of being near the ocean as it should. Or does the marks in the map show the center of the district?

3. I don't think Downtown is part of OQ. If I remember correctly, the keeper's map shows a wall between OQ and Downtown, so I think they were seperated atleast 200-50 years ago in the City's history.

Do you have a map of your own Solabusca? I'm getting a feeling you are referring to a map you have done, but I can't seem to find it.

[Solabusca]

Do you have a map of your own Solabusca? I'm getting a feeling you are referring to a map you have done, but I can't seem to find it.

No map of my own, per se. Instead, I modified str8g8's excellent work to display my example, also showing the TDS and Keeper maps

.j.

[str8g8]

You keep haranguing me about evidence but the mountains of 'evidence' you have supplied amounts to:

1. OQ is a funny shape.
2. Shalebridge Cradle ought to be in Shalebridge.


The evidence I am talking about is negative - I am not trying to show why Shalebridge is where we have placed it, I am trying to show you why it CAN'T be where you have placed it. Perhaps that's why you keep ignoring it.

This is the crux of it:

The T3 City Map is missing reference to Newmarket, DownTowne, Hightowne or any of the other pre-existing districts - because it focuses on places where the action takes place.

This is exactly my point. Shalebridge Cradle is part of where the "action takes place". IF Shalebridge Cradle is in an area called Shalebridge it would be marked on this map. It isn't. End of story.

EDIT:

Unfortunately, I cannot

You said it right there. There can be no debate with someone who cannot even entertain the possibility that they are wrong.

[MorbusG]

Man it's getting hot in here. *Pours some more water on the kiuas*

I say it again: Shalebridge doesn't fit in the area next/near/around to the cradle. Sola, see how hard I've tried that. It would end up being unacceptable small. Like three houses and the cradle. Even more so, when you look at the shipping label from S&R:

Page_0: "Ship From: Gilver Exporting Co
1369 Winston Avenue Bay#7933
Wayside Dock District

Ship To: Manny Jabrielle
499 Taft Avenue
Shalebridge"

449 Taft Avenue.

I rest my case.
Even if we would accept the smallness, G's T1/2 home would be in Wayside Docks. Something I wouldn't swallow easily.

@Dark Arrow: I don't think the artifacts map is canon as in-game the place where you put the artifact is by the ocean, as you might recall.

[Solabusca]

You keep haranguing me about evidence but the mountains of 'evidence' you have supplied amounts to:

1. OQ is a funny shape.
2. Shalebridge Cradle ought to be in Shalebridge.

Please tell me that this is not all you've gotten out of the reams of evidence I've provided.

Actually, 1. has nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with my evidence, mate. You're the one who's got the OQ subdivided already - if it is, great, if it's not, great - it's a SEPERATE ISSUE. I'm not sure why you've focussed on it with regards to SB - it's something I had issue with UNTIL YOU PROVIDED A SIMPLE LINE MAP showing how you've folded some sections into OQ as sub-divisions. I still think it's too large, but that is a SEPERATE ISSUE, and one that I've dropped, thankyouverymuch. It is not part of this conversation. Unless, that is, you make it so by trying to use it against me.

My positive evidence:
*A map that points NE to Shalebridge
*a pair of mission objectives that provide more than a hint that the goal is to get past the gates of Shalebridge Road and into Shalebridge
*a ROAD CALLED SHALEBRIDGE
*a building in the same area (based on the current shape of the map) called the Shalebridge Cradle.

Add to that, a river that could very well be one described in conversation between two servants as being between Newmarket and Shalebridge, and SAID CONVERSATION, as well as in-game images of said river as the place in Newmarket that the keepers have locked with a seal, beneath which is the Lost City.

Yours:... nothing, really. You've been putting forward this concept since THIS POST with no evidenciary backups.

That's ALL I'VE ASKED, ye glaikit taffer! ONE SCRAP OF EVIDENCE to support your claim, beyond what you've been providing - that it just 'feels right'. 'Cause it doesn't to me.

This is exactly my point. Shalebridge Cradle is part of where the "action takes place". IF Shalebridge Cradle is in an area called Shalebridge it would be marked on this map. It isn't. End of story.

Good catch. Now provide me some scrap of positive evidence that you're right, because I've provided a ton of evidence that you're wrong:

1) Your SB is NNW, not NE of SQ.
2) Your SB is nowhere NEAR close enough to South Quarter to be an effective escape for Garret. He has to cross the entire city, backtracking as well, when he's being hunted by the guard.
3) Your SB is not across a river from Newmarket. It is across a river from OQ and Hightowne.
4) Your supposition that 'Shalebridge Road' stretches up into SB and then to the Cradle (one of your initial points in the post I flagged) has failed to be supported.

You said it right there. There can be no debate with someone who cannot even entertain the possibility that they are wrong.

Wow, and you accuse ME of taking this personally. Ignore the last part of my paragraph, why don't you? Here it is again: I cannot say you may be right without evidence - and you've failed to provide me any, positive or negative.

I've provided scads of evidence. I've gone out of my way to show you, both verbally and with images, what my point is - which, given what you've claimed are my arguments you've completely missed. I've provided in game dialogue, in game maps, out-of-game maps, and the like - all that I've asked is that you do the same. You have failed to do so, and instead stand behind your claim that because this is the way it is RIGHT NOW on the map, that's all the proof you need.

Again, ALL I HAVE ASKED IS FOR YOU TO PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE THAT SET YOU DOWN THIS PATH.

Right now we could be working on a happy medium - something that could please both of us. Instead you're taking half of what I say and twisting it into useless snark.

Now, the smart thing to do would be to put this aside, and try and find a location that we can agree on. Your frustration seems to be springing from the fact that I've challenged the current placement of SB, and that I can't accept your reasons for placing it there. My frustration is stemming from the fact that you've failed to provide any reasons, and that you're ignoring all the evidence I've brought to bear.

Oh, and an aside to MorbusG.

449 Taft Avenue.

I rest my case.
Even if we would accept the smallness, G's T1/2 home would be in Wayside Docks. Something I wouldn't swallow easily.

Why are you presupposing a style of addressing that may or may not exist in the City? This path has already been trod upon with inconclusive results, as well. My house is 50. It's the first house on my street. My old house was 362. There were a grand total of fourteen houses on that street. So your 'proof', well, it isn't, really.

Oh, and given that Garret lives in SQ, I'm not sure where you're getting the fact that he'd live in the Docks. Care to follow up on that one?

All I want is someone to show me the logic in it's current placement - then we can come up with something mutually satisfactory. Because right now there IS NO LOGIC. It doesn't fit in-game information AT ALL.

.j.

[str8g8]

Man it's getting hot in here. *Pours some more water on the kiuas*

Um, yes. I agree it's getting a bit confrontational. I apologise in advance if I offend anyone.

Anyway, on to other matters:
@Dark Arrow:

1. I'm not sure that the Ambush map shows that Shalebridge is far away. The arrows could be pointing to the center of the district. I assumed that Shalebridge is beyond that gate, but I see the difficulty of it being there as I look at the maps.

Yes, I think we all make that assumption at first, I think. But if that is the case then why put arrows at all? The point I wanted to make is that area just beyond the gate is not Shalebridge. Now we can argue whether SB is 10 feet away from there or 10 miles, but the point stands.

2. Is the Hag's map considered non canon? This is mainly because of the location of the docks receptable. The mark seems to be in the center of the district instead of being near the ocean as it should. Or does the marks in the map show the center of the district?

This is one of the discrepencies that we can't fix because it is the original devs doing. We can only say that the Docks areas, as experienced by players, should take precedence over the Hag's map

3. I don't think Downtown is part of OQ. If I remember correctly, the keeper's map shows a wall between OQ and Downtown, so I think they were seperated atleast 200-50 years ago in the City's history.

Well, I agree with you 100% on this, I just seem to be confusing matters, (for which I apologise). I never intended to say that Downtowne and Stonemarket were "part of" Old Quarter as such. As you quite rightly say, there are walls between them and they are clearly referred to as districts in their own right. It was the result of speculation about how these areas might have evolved out of OQ, and that these smaller districts (ie Newmarket and Hightowne as well) might not be full-blown Quarters in the same sense as North Quarter, South Quarter etc. But I think we are getting ahead of ourselves here, so let's just keep it simple: Downtowne, Hightowne, Stonemarket, New Market are all districts in their own right.

[Solabusca]

Um, yes. I agree it's getting a bit confrontational. I apologise in advance if I offend anyone.

We've both been getting heated. You have my apologies as well - I chalk it up to both of us being passionate about this, and we're probably going to continue butting heads about it for a bit. Best not to have it get too virulent. I've withdrawn my comment about that particular individual being right.

Yes, I think we all make that assumption at first, I think. But if that is the case then why put arrows at all? The point I wanted to make is that area just beyond the gate is not Shalebridge. Now we can argue whether SB is 10 feet away from there or 10 miles, but the point stands.

Part of the problem is the mission objective: After you get the gate key, proceed to Shalebridge. Between the Sheriff's patrols and the guard post at the main gate, it's not going to be as easy as it sounds. - in ambush, you're sneaking past the patrols in SQ, and the guard post at the Main Gate to get into Shalebridge. Nuisance, innit?

Gah, I'd really, really hate to think that the entirety of the Keepers map exists in the area of the TDS map around Old Quarters giant QU... it'd throw off all of our scaling notes thus far.

But I think we are getting ahead of ourselves here, so let's just keep it simple: Downtowne, Hightowne, Stonemarket, New Market are all districts in their own right.

So it has been said, so shall it be. Seperate issue, one I'm not going to bring up right now - it may resolve itself....

[MorbusG]

It seems we really, really need a new evidence page. *Proper* evidence page. As in html showing maps on the left, and related evidence on the right. I'm onto it fellas, hold on. Because frankly, I don't think it's very easy to see how things work out without actually having the maps in front of you so one is able to twist and turn and place them different ways.

[opinion]
I think the map is crystallizing now. One evidence of it is that if one would begin from the start with empty table, one would end up having pretty much the same looking/same scale map in front of us. Just as it happened to me. Yes, even the river bend (Shoalsgate map easter-egg showing river going E-W)
[/opinion]

@Sola: the G home @ Docks was dictated by your placement of Assassins/keepers map (I'm referring to the map you made earlier), because of the 'Hometurf'-mark on ass assins would be so much to the south, it would be on Docks.

Also the street numbering quote was a mistake from me. I was trying to point out the size of SB in relation to the big amount of quotes we get in the games about that area. It would seem odd for it to be so small area in light of that, and not referred by it's own name in the maps instead of Old quarter.

I understand it seems weird that I've changed my stance about SB, but trust me when I say I've tried just about everything to fit it somewhere in there (Old quarter).

[str8g8]

You have my apologies as well

Fair enough.

After you get the gate key, proceed to Shalebridge. Between the Sheriff's patrols and the guard post at the main gate, it's not going to be as easy as it sounds.

Yes, this is the strongest argument for what you are suggesting.

But remember the context of Ambush! however: G has been framed and the patrols out in SQ are are actively looking for him and so on. Once he gets past Old Gate, he has a clear run up Shalebridge Rd to Shalebridge proper. That's basically the current explanation.

(Ironically, it seems that moving the Ambush map down nearer the Docks seems to have weakened the current layout with regard to SB - in it's original location it was much nearer). One way to solve this would be to move it back.

At the end of the day though, it's not up to me, so whatever the balance of opinions dictate, I will be happy to go with.

*Proper* evidence page

Sounds interesting I look forward to seeing what you come up with. It is a pain having to constantly post links to all the different maps.

cheers
str8g8

[Solabusca]

Fair enough.

Good. Ya glaikit taffer. ;P

(Ironically, it seems that moving the Ambush map down nearer the Docks seems to have weakened the current layout with regard to SB - in it's original location it was much nearer). One way to solve this would be to move it back.

I was thinking that myself, while looking at the city_map_complete_new03.png file that I saved ages back... you can make a stronger case for the NM/SB/SQ tie, there... but it's still got the 'across the river' problem (unless you posit the smaller river we've already discussed), and it doesn't connect the Cradle with SBRoad, a major sticking point - someone get me an original dev in here so we can bludgeon them with questions (and kindness)!!

As an aside you could get a similar effect if in the map I just mentioned, you took the northern portion of the OQ and made it Shalebridge... but then we still have the problem with the ASSN map, and the problem with having the Cradle so bloody far away from the action.

Sounds interesting I look forward to seeing what you come up with. It is a pain having to constantly post links to all the different maps.

Well, that's pretty much what the original mandate for this thread was, but it's grown so much that the evidence is buried in the debate. Someone with the skills should set up a 'Mapping out the City' wiki so that we can get the evidence and the problems up in one spot, to allow us to debate more clearly!

.j.

[EDIT: Check yer PM's, str8g8...]

[Dark Arrow]

I really don't have time to go through the 30+ threads about this, so I'll just post it:

Have you considered the possibility that the "Shalebridge" in The Shalebridge Cradle doesn't have anything to do with the location of the cradle, but the residence. Could it be possible that Shalebridge means poor in this situation? I can't really see a more diplomatic solution to it.

Other options:
1. The T3 Old quarter is actually north above the sealed section
2. Shalebridge is between OQ and Auldale. Between second and third bridge from the Ocean.

I don't really like these options.

Regarding the maps by Solabusca:
South Quarter would be in the docks like MorbusG pointed out, if we take the home turf referance to mean SQ.

One thing I don't really like about str8g8 map is the location of the sealed section. I would assume that the roads would not be cut off by the walls of the section. It has been a long time since the section was sealed off after all. Wouldn't the City build major roads to go around the section, instead of forcing people to start using smaller roads to get to the third bridge? Could the sealed section be smaller and inside the small section which is surrounded by the roads near the third bridge?

[Solabusca]

Okay, at str8g8's urging (I'd PM'd him this...), I'm posting an alternate - like Mugla says, take a step back.



Now, this particular map still has two problems - one, it posits that SB is part of the Old Quarter, and two, we still have the same issue with the Cradle being way the hell over there when the district is over here.

On the plus side, it does resolve the Ambush/Shalebridge Road issue somewhat, and (if you reaaaaaally zoom in, much more clear on the source map mentioned above), it resolves the NM/SB river issue - with or without the Lost City cutscene resolution.

I've also taken the liberty of adding a few of Purah's areas to the map to replace the former location of SB. (Some of T2X's The Cure can take place just to the west of the Cathedral in the sealed section, too... just extend the walls a little, to make a seperate rectangle just West of it...)

Now, of the two I'm still thinking that my first suggestion (SB south by SQ on the most recent map) is better, but if we revert to the map before the movement of the Ambush map (ie, the map referenced above in Mugla's post), then this becomes a potentially viable solution.

Onto the next poster!

Have you considered the possibility that the "Shalebridge" in The Shalebridge Cradle doesn't have anything to do with the location of the cradle, but the residence. Could it be possible that Shalebridge means poor in this situation? I can't really see a more diplomatic solution to it.

I don't really feel that it's viable, given that the reference doesn't spring up anywhere else in three games. I'm sure if Shalebridge was in common use as an adjective, we'd have heard someone using it ingame. No, it's quite definately a region.

Regarding the maps by Solabusca:
South Quarter would be in the docks like MorbusG pointed out, if we take the home turf referance to mean SQ.

If you'd read the threads, you'd know that I don't believe that Garret is referring to SQ with the 'home-turf' comment. Really, really early on in the thread we have touched upon the idea that Garret has several hidey-holes and safe-houses spread out through the area. Given that he knows that Ramirez's toughboys are looking for him, and may even seek revenge for the night's activities, do you really think he's going to return to a known and compromised location? Once again, as it's only referred to as Home Turf, it could mean anything. He could be referring to the region around Ramirez's as Enemy Turf, and anything else as Home Turf.

One thing I don't really like about str8g8 map is the location of the sealed section. I would assume that the roads would not be cut off by the walls of the section. It has been a long time since the section was sealed off after all. Wouldn't the City build major roads to go around the section, instead of forcing people to start using smaller roads to get to the third bridge? Could the sealed section be smaller and inside the small section which is surrounded by the roads near the third bridge?

Possible, and it could tie into a very old idea of mine positing that Fort Ironwood is the 'main gate' and barricade to the Sealed Section. Just move it south to the back end of the OQ TDS map, and you're covered. But that leaves us with the ASSN map issue.

.j.

[EDIT: Per request, shrunk down as best I can while at work.]

[Dark Arrow]

I should have been more clear on what I meant. Shalebridge cradle was an orphanage, which means it held orphans with no home or money. Meaning poor and homeless. Which quarter would have most poor people...Shalebridge as it is a slum area (it is still considered to be the slum area, right? Or did I made that up?). So poor people would be considered to live in Shalebridge by everyone in the City and Shalebridge Cradle would have gotten its name because it originally held poor orphans.

I didn't mean that Shalebridge would be an adjective and not a district. I am saying that it could be an adjective when it comes to some building and road names.

T3 OQ:
The problem with placing the OQ of T3 to the north of the sealed section is that the glyph of the endgame doesn't reach that far and if I understood correctly the meaning of the endgame in T3 was to draw the glyph. We could have a pointless debate on how the glyph could possibly work and whether it was drawn or just activated with Garrett placing the sentinents, but since it just a computer game I think I'll let it slide, if it is decided that it should be there. I would personally place it under the castle icon in T3 map in OQ.