Mapping out The City.

[str8g8]

You keep haranguing me about evidence but the mountains of 'evidence' you have supplied amounts to:

1. OQ is a funny shape.
2. Shalebridge Cradle ought to be in Shalebridge.


The evidence I am talking about is negative - I am not trying to show why Shalebridge is where we have placed it, I am trying to show you why it CAN'T be where you have placed it. Perhaps that's why you keep ignoring it.

This is the crux of it:

The T3 City Map is missing reference to Newmarket, DownTowne, Hightowne or any of the other pre-existing districts - because it focuses on places where the action takes place.

This is exactly my point. Shalebridge Cradle is part of where the "action takes place". IF Shalebridge Cradle is in an area called Shalebridge it would be marked on this map. It isn't. End of story.

EDIT:

Unfortunately, I cannot

You said it right there. There can be no debate with someone who cannot even entertain the possibility that they are wrong.

[MorbusG]

Man it's getting hot in here. *Pours some more water on the kiuas*

I say it again: Shalebridge doesn't fit in the area next/near/around to the cradle. Sola, see how hard I've tried that. It would end up being unacceptable small. Like three houses and the cradle. Even more so, when you look at the shipping label from S&R:

Page_0: "Ship From: Gilver Exporting Co
1369 Winston Avenue Bay#7933
Wayside Dock District

Ship To: Manny Jabrielle
499 Taft Avenue
Shalebridge"

449 Taft Avenue.

I rest my case.
Even if we would accept the smallness, G's T1/2 home would be in Wayside Docks. Something I wouldn't swallow easily.

@Dark Arrow: I don't think the artifacts map is canon as in-game the place where you put the artifact is by the ocean, as you might recall.

[Solabusca]

You keep haranguing me about evidence but the mountains of 'evidence' you have supplied amounts to:

1. OQ is a funny shape.
2. Shalebridge Cradle ought to be in Shalebridge.

Please tell me that this is not all you've gotten out of the reams of evidence I've provided.

Actually, 1. has nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with my evidence, mate. You're the one who's got the OQ subdivided already - if it is, great, if it's not, great - it's a SEPERATE ISSUE. I'm not sure why you've focussed on it with regards to SB - it's something I had issue with UNTIL YOU PROVIDED A SIMPLE LINE MAP showing how you've folded some sections into OQ as sub-divisions. I still think it's too large, but that is a SEPERATE ISSUE, and one that I've dropped, thankyouverymuch. It is not part of this conversation. Unless, that is, you make it so by trying to use it against me.

My positive evidence:
*A map that points NE to Shalebridge
*a pair of mission objectives that provide more than a hint that the goal is to get past the gates of Shalebridge Road and into Shalebridge
*a ROAD CALLED SHALEBRIDGE
*a building in the same area (based on the current shape of the map) called the Shalebridge Cradle.

Add to that, a river that could very well be one described in conversation between two servants as being between Newmarket and Shalebridge, and SAID CONVERSATION, as well as in-game images of said river as the place in Newmarket that the keepers have locked with a seal, beneath which is the Lost City.

Yours:... nothing, really. You've been putting forward this concept since THIS POST with no evidenciary backups.

That's ALL I'VE ASKED, ye glaikit taffer! ONE SCRAP OF EVIDENCE to support your claim, beyond what you've been providing - that it just 'feels right'. 'Cause it doesn't to me.

This is exactly my point. Shalebridge Cradle is part of where the "action takes place". IF Shalebridge Cradle is in an area called Shalebridge it would be marked on this map. It isn't. End of story.

Good catch. Now provide me some scrap of positive evidence that you're right, because I've provided a ton of evidence that you're wrong:

1) Your SB is NNW, not NE of SQ.
2) Your SB is nowhere NEAR close enough to South Quarter to be an effective escape for Garret. He has to cross the entire city, backtracking as well, when he's being hunted by the guard.
3) Your SB is not across a river from Newmarket. It is across a river from OQ and Hightowne.
4) Your supposition that 'Shalebridge Road' stretches up into SB and then to the Cradle (one of your initial points in the post I flagged) has failed to be supported.

You said it right there. There can be no debate with someone who cannot even entertain the possibility that they are wrong.

Wow, and you accuse ME of taking this personally. Ignore the last part of my paragraph, why don't you? Here it is again: I cannot say you may be right without evidence - and you've failed to provide me any, positive or negative.

I've provided scads of evidence. I've gone out of my way to show you, both verbally and with images, what my point is - which, given what you've claimed are my arguments you've completely missed. I've provided in game dialogue, in game maps, out-of-game maps, and the like - all that I've asked is that you do the same. You have failed to do so, and instead stand behind your claim that because this is the way it is RIGHT NOW on the map, that's all the proof you need.

Again, ALL I HAVE ASKED IS FOR YOU TO PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE THAT SET YOU DOWN THIS PATH.

Right now we could be working on a happy medium - something that could please both of us. Instead you're taking half of what I say and twisting it into useless snark.

Now, the smart thing to do would be to put this aside, and try and find a location that we can agree on. Your frustration seems to be springing from the fact that I've challenged the current placement of SB, and that I can't accept your reasons for placing it there. My frustration is stemming from the fact that you've failed to provide any reasons, and that you're ignoring all the evidence I've brought to bear.

Oh, and an aside to MorbusG.

449 Taft Avenue.

I rest my case.
Even if we would accept the smallness, G's T1/2 home would be in Wayside Docks. Something I wouldn't swallow easily.

Why are you presupposing a style of addressing that may or may not exist in the City? This path has already been trod upon with inconclusive results, as well. My house is 50. It's the first house on my street. My old house was 362. There were a grand total of fourteen houses on that street. So your 'proof', well, it isn't, really.

Oh, and given that Garret lives in SQ, I'm not sure where you're getting the fact that he'd live in the Docks. Care to follow up on that one?

All I want is someone to show me the logic in it's current placement - then we can come up with something mutually satisfactory. Because right now there IS NO LOGIC. It doesn't fit in-game information AT ALL.

.j.

[str8g8]

Man it's getting hot in here. *Pours some more water on the kiuas*

Um, yes. I agree it's getting a bit confrontational. I apologise in advance if I offend anyone.

Anyway, on to other matters:
@Dark Arrow:

1. I'm not sure that the Ambush map shows that Shalebridge is far away. The arrows could be pointing to the center of the district. I assumed that Shalebridge is beyond that gate, but I see the difficulty of it being there as I look at the maps.

Yes, I think we all make that assumption at first, I think. But if that is the case then why put arrows at all? The point I wanted to make is that area just beyond the gate is not Shalebridge. Now we can argue whether SB is 10 feet away from there or 10 miles, but the point stands.

2. Is the Hag's map considered non canon? This is mainly because of the location of the docks receptable. The mark seems to be in the center of the district instead of being near the ocean as it should. Or does the marks in the map show the center of the district?

This is one of the discrepencies that we can't fix because it is the original devs doing. We can only say that the Docks areas, as experienced by players, should take precedence over the Hag's map

3. I don't think Downtown is part of OQ. If I remember correctly, the keeper's map shows a wall between OQ and Downtown, so I think they were seperated atleast 200-50 years ago in the City's history.

Well, I agree with you 100% on this, I just seem to be confusing matters, (for which I apologise). I never intended to say that Downtowne and Stonemarket were "part of" Old Quarter as such. As you quite rightly say, there are walls between them and they are clearly referred to as districts in their own right. It was the result of speculation about how these areas might have evolved out of OQ, and that these smaller districts (ie Newmarket and Hightowne as well) might not be full-blown Quarters in the same sense as North Quarter, South Quarter etc. But I think we are getting ahead of ourselves here, so let's just keep it simple: Downtowne, Hightowne, Stonemarket, New Market are all districts in their own right.

[Solabusca]

Um, yes. I agree it's getting a bit confrontational. I apologise in advance if I offend anyone.

We've both been getting heated. You have my apologies as well - I chalk it up to both of us being passionate about this, and we're probably going to continue butting heads about it for a bit. Best not to have it get too virulent. I've withdrawn my comment about that particular individual being right.

Yes, I think we all make that assumption at first, I think. But if that is the case then why put arrows at all? The point I wanted to make is that area just beyond the gate is not Shalebridge. Now we can argue whether SB is 10 feet away from there or 10 miles, but the point stands.

Part of the problem is the mission objective: After you get the gate key, proceed to Shalebridge. Between the Sheriff's patrols and the guard post at the main gate, it's not going to be as easy as it sounds. - in ambush, you're sneaking past the patrols in SQ, and the guard post at the Main Gate to get into Shalebridge. Nuisance, innit?

Gah, I'd really, really hate to think that the entirety of the Keepers map exists in the area of the TDS map around Old Quarters giant QU... it'd throw off all of our scaling notes thus far.

But I think we are getting ahead of ourselves here, so let's just keep it simple: Downtowne, Hightowne, Stonemarket, New Market are all districts in their own right.

So it has been said, so shall it be. Seperate issue, one I'm not going to bring up right now - it may resolve itself....

[MorbusG]

It seems we really, really need a new evidence page. *Proper* evidence page. As in html showing maps on the left, and related evidence on the right. I'm onto it fellas, hold on. Because frankly, I don't think it's very easy to see how things work out without actually having the maps in front of you so one is able to twist and turn and place them different ways.

[opinion]
I think the map is crystallizing now. One evidence of it is that if one would begin from the start with empty table, one would end up having pretty much the same looking/same scale map in front of us. Just as it happened to me. Yes, even the river bend (Shoalsgate map easter-egg showing river going E-W)
[/opinion]

@Sola: the G home @ Docks was dictated by your placement of Assassins/keepers map (I'm referring to the map you made earlier), because of the 'Hometurf'-mark on ass assins would be so much to the south, it would be on Docks.

Also the street numbering quote was a mistake from me. I was trying to point out the size of SB in relation to the big amount of quotes we get in the games about that area. It would seem odd for it to be so small area in light of that, and not referred by it's own name in the maps instead of Old quarter.

I understand it seems weird that I've changed my stance about SB, but trust me when I say I've tried just about everything to fit it somewhere in there (Old quarter).

[str8g8]

You have my apologies as well

Fair enough.

After you get the gate key, proceed to Shalebridge. Between the Sheriff's patrols and the guard post at the main gate, it's not going to be as easy as it sounds.

Yes, this is the strongest argument for what you are suggesting.

But remember the context of Ambush! however: G has been framed and the patrols out in SQ are are actively looking for him and so on. Once he gets past Old Gate, he has a clear run up Shalebridge Rd to Shalebridge proper. That's basically the current explanation.

(Ironically, it seems that moving the Ambush map down nearer the Docks seems to have weakened the current layout with regard to SB - in it's original location it was much nearer). One way to solve this would be to move it back.

At the end of the day though, it's not up to me, so whatever the balance of opinions dictate, I will be happy to go with.

*Proper* evidence page

Sounds interesting I look forward to seeing what you come up with. It is a pain having to constantly post links to all the different maps.

cheers
str8g8

[Solabusca]

Fair enough.

Good. Ya glaikit taffer. ;P

(Ironically, it seems that moving the Ambush map down nearer the Docks seems to have weakened the current layout with regard to SB - in it's original location it was much nearer). One way to solve this would be to move it back.

I was thinking that myself, while looking at the city_map_complete_new03.png file that I saved ages back... you can make a stronger case for the NM/SB/SQ tie, there... but it's still got the 'across the river' problem (unless you posit the smaller river we've already discussed), and it doesn't connect the Cradle with SBRoad, a major sticking point - someone get me an original dev in here so we can bludgeon them with questions (and kindness)!!

As an aside you could get a similar effect if in the map I just mentioned, you took the northern portion of the OQ and made it Shalebridge... but then we still have the problem with the ASSN map, and the problem with having the Cradle so bloody far away from the action.

Sounds interesting I look forward to seeing what you come up with. It is a pain having to constantly post links to all the different maps.

Well, that's pretty much what the original mandate for this thread was, but it's grown so much that the evidence is buried in the debate. Someone with the skills should set up a 'Mapping out the City' wiki so that we can get the evidence and the problems up in one spot, to allow us to debate more clearly!

.j.

[EDIT: Check yer PM's, str8g8...]

[Dark Arrow]

I really don't have time to go through the 30+ threads about this, so I'll just post it:

Have you considered the possibility that the "Shalebridge" in The Shalebridge Cradle doesn't have anything to do with the location of the cradle, but the residence. Could it be possible that Shalebridge means poor in this situation? I can't really see a more diplomatic solution to it.

Other options:
1. The T3 Old quarter is actually north above the sealed section
2. Shalebridge is between OQ and Auldale. Between second and third bridge from the Ocean.

I don't really like these options.

Regarding the maps by Solabusca:
South Quarter would be in the docks like MorbusG pointed out, if we take the home turf referance to mean SQ.

One thing I don't really like about str8g8 map is the location of the sealed section. I would assume that the roads would not be cut off by the walls of the section. It has been a long time since the section was sealed off after all. Wouldn't the City build major roads to go around the section, instead of forcing people to start using smaller roads to get to the third bridge? Could the sealed section be smaller and inside the small section which is surrounded by the roads near the third bridge?

[Solabusca]

Okay, at str8g8's urging (I'd PM'd him this...), I'm posting an alternate - like Mugla says, take a step back.



Now, this particular map still has two problems - one, it posits that SB is part of the Old Quarter, and two, we still have the same issue with the Cradle being way the hell over there when the district is over here.

On the plus side, it does resolve the Ambush/Shalebridge Road issue somewhat, and (if you reaaaaaally zoom in, much more clear on the source map mentioned above), it resolves the NM/SB river issue - with or without the Lost City cutscene resolution.

I've also taken the liberty of adding a few of Purah's areas to the map to replace the former location of SB. (Some of T2X's The Cure can take place just to the west of the Cathedral in the sealed section, too... just extend the walls a little, to make a seperate rectangle just West of it...)

Now, of the two I'm still thinking that my first suggestion (SB south by SQ on the most recent map) is better, but if we revert to the map before the movement of the Ambush map (ie, the map referenced above in Mugla's post), then this becomes a potentially viable solution.

Onto the next poster!

Have you considered the possibility that the "Shalebridge" in The Shalebridge Cradle doesn't have anything to do with the location of the cradle, but the residence. Could it be possible that Shalebridge means poor in this situation? I can't really see a more diplomatic solution to it.

I don't really feel that it's viable, given that the reference doesn't spring up anywhere else in three games. I'm sure if Shalebridge was in common use as an adjective, we'd have heard someone using it ingame. No, it's quite definately a region.

Regarding the maps by Solabusca:
South Quarter would be in the docks like MorbusG pointed out, if we take the home turf referance to mean SQ.

If you'd read the threads, you'd know that I don't believe that Garret is referring to SQ with the 'home-turf' comment. Really, really early on in the thread we have touched upon the idea that Garret has several hidey-holes and safe-houses spread out through the area. Given that he knows that Ramirez's toughboys are looking for him, and may even seek revenge for the night's activities, do you really think he's going to return to a known and compromised location? Once again, as it's only referred to as Home Turf, it could mean anything. He could be referring to the region around Ramirez's as Enemy Turf, and anything else as Home Turf.

One thing I don't really like about str8g8 map is the location of the sealed section. I would assume that the roads would not be cut off by the walls of the section. It has been a long time since the section was sealed off after all. Wouldn't the City build major roads to go around the section, instead of forcing people to start using smaller roads to get to the third bridge? Could the sealed section be smaller and inside the small section which is surrounded by the roads near the third bridge?

Possible, and it could tie into a very old idea of mine positing that Fort Ironwood is the 'main gate' and barricade to the Sealed Section. Just move it south to the back end of the OQ TDS map, and you're covered. But that leaves us with the ASSN map issue.

.j.

[EDIT: Per request, shrunk down as best I can while at work.]

[Dark Arrow]

I should have been more clear on what I meant. Shalebridge cradle was an orphanage, which means it held orphans with no home or money. Meaning poor and homeless. Which quarter would have most poor people...Shalebridge as it is a slum area (it is still considered to be the slum area, right? Or did I made that up?). So poor people would be considered to live in Shalebridge by everyone in the City and Shalebridge Cradle would have gotten its name because it originally held poor orphans.

I didn't mean that Shalebridge would be an adjective and not a district. I am saying that it could be an adjective when it comes to some building and road names.

T3 OQ:
The problem with placing the OQ of T3 to the north of the sealed section is that the glyph of the endgame doesn't reach that far and if I understood correctly the meaning of the endgame in T3 was to draw the glyph. We could have a pointless debate on how the glyph could possibly work and whether it was drawn or just activated with Garrett placing the sentinents, but since it just a computer game I think I'll let it slide, if it is decided that it should be there. I would personally place it under the castle icon in T3 map in OQ.

[Mugla]

I really don't have time to go through the 30+ threads about this, so I'll just post it:

Have you considered the possibility that the "Shalebridge" in The Shalebridge Cradle doesn't have anything to do with the location of the cradle, but the residence. Could it be possible that Shalebridge means poor in this situation? I can't really see a more diplomatic solution to it.

Other options:
1. The T3 Old quarter is actually north above the sealed section
2. Shalebridge is between OQ and Auldale. Between second and third bridge from the Ocean.

Yes, this was discussed. And Sola, here's something for you too:
The outcome was (eventually, though it doesn't bar other possibilities), that Shalebridge was a separate village, that got drowned into the slums of the growing City (or just a city-district slightly apart at first). So a road that *goes* to Shalebridge had to be made, and we already had one: Shalebridge road. Note, not street. So, when it was already evident that Ambush! would line in with SQ, it wasn't really hard to line it with one of the major roads from the T3 manual map.

One thing I don't really like about str8g8 map is the location of the sealed section. I would assume that the roads would not be cut off by the walls of the section. It has been a long time since the section was sealed off after all. Wouldn't the City build major roads to go around the section, instead of forcing people to start using smaller roads to get to the third bridge? Could the sealed section be smaller and inside the small section which is surrounded by the roads near the third bridge?

See the odd shaping of the original T3map roads there west of that bridge? One road that goes straight, and the other, that seems to go *around something?* Well, the idea was, that since the Sealed Section already had a Auldale street on the east side, this should line in with one of the roads going to Auldale.
We tried the other bridges, but the current maps and the scale of the maps (yes, we made crude scales once) would suggest that this is the only spot available.



And thanks to MorbusG for doing the chore.

[Solabusca]

Yes, this was discussed. And Sola, here's something for you too:
The outcome was (eventually, though it doesn't bar other possibilities), that Shalebridge was a separate village, that got drowned into the slums of the growing City (or just a city-district slightly apart at first). So a road that *goes* to Shalebridge had to be made, and we already had one: Shalebridge road. Note, not street. So, when it was already evident that Ambush! would line in with SQ, it wasn't really hard to line it with one of the major roads from the T3 manual map.

Except that, in the most recent version of the map, Ambush is completely screwed, because the location of SB is NNW, NOT NE, as indicated in the mission map.

Now, IF Shalebridge got absorbed into the slums of the City, wouldn't it exist somewhere within the initial growth pattern, and not far outside of it? The areas to the north would have to be more recent developments, given the fact that they lie so far outside the initial growth area.

Second problem - why, oh why, is it called the Shalebridge cradle? I can't see anyone shipping orphans from one end of the city to another, then naming after another district. I can see them building an orphanage in SB proper to fill the void, if it needed one, or in a nearby quarter, not one halfway across the city.

And thanks to MorbusG for doing the chore.

Valiant effort, yes - except he's missed the point that Home Turf does not necessarily equal South Quarter. It's not a fudge, because at no point in the mission does he refer to it as SQ - it's only an assumption that it is given the known location of two of his hidey-holes.

.j.

[Dark Arrow]

I think I'll leave it for the rest of you to figure out. I'll do a and a when you are done.

[Jadon]

Solabusca, could you ever so nicely edit your post so that the image fits within the sites prereqs for posting images?

[242]

Second problem - why, oh why, is it called the Shalebridge cradle? I can't see anyone shipping orphans from one end of the city to another, then naming after another district.

Shalebridge should be adjacent to Old Quarter I think.

[Logan]

And who knows where's this part of city?

[str8g8]

I think what Dark Arrow has suggested is at least a viable explanation for the naming of Shalebridge Cradle, and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. If SB is this kind of slum or ghetto, it's not hard to believe that an institution might be set up to deal with the waifs and strays that infested the area, and be called the Shalebridge Cradle ... Then perhaps later on it widened it's remit to take in all orphans of whatever background.

@Logan: I don't recognize the image - is it from an FM? It looks like it is near the Docks, but I guess it could be anywhere along the River.

cheers
str8g8

[242]

And who knows where's this part of city?

Hmmm, is it from an FM? It seems like the depicted area could be located at the Docks.

[Logan]

Noop... it's not from FM. It's a sketch from PC Gamer.de video "Looking Glass Behind the Scenes"So.. it's an official sketch.

Later I'll make a more best looking image from several frames. But it's a 320x240 size with high compressing video.

[Shadow Play]

Okay, at str8g8's urging (I'd PM'd him this...), I'm posting an alternate - like Mugla says, take a step back.

Just thought I'd point out that in mission one of Calendra's Legacy, the entrance to Murkbell is on the coast, is it not?

Adding FM locations will make the exercise more complicated, and there's also permissions from authors to be considered.

[str8g8]

Wow, Logan, that's a cool video ... amazing to see some of the things that didn't make it into the final game - the two-headed ogre, the rat\eel (??) good stuff.

@Shadow Play: We were only indending to place some of the larger FM contributions. After that, it would be open for individual authors to place their own work (if they wanted to). It hadn't occurred to me to ask permissions but I can't imagine anyone would object (... would they??)

cheers
str8g8

[242]

Logan, cool find! I never have seen the sketch earlier as well as the video.

[Solabusca]

Just thought I'd point out that in mission one of Calendra's Legacy, the entrance to Murkbell is on the coast, is it not?

Adding FM locations will make the exercise more complicated, and there's also permissions from authors to be considered.

The interesting thing about Purah's missions is that they're pretty self-referential - Lampfire Hills leads to Lampfire leads to Murbell, which is North and East of Highwatch. (as taken from ALF, CC, CL1, CL2) Now, in CL1, there are cliffs and hills to the north, and ocean to the west - but in our map, we don't have anywhere to place ocean to the West except Dayport, and it's too far away from the hills. The World Mapping Project has place the City in such a way that the only place these areas could have ocean to the West and cliffs to the North would be at the extreme west of the City, but that would suggest that there were no outlying farms or manors.

All in all, it was the best placement I could come up with given the layout of this map, and still maintaining these sections as part of the City Proper.

Most FM authors either create outlying areas, or stick to non-descript or pre-established City locales - very few map out their own quarters with the depth that the Calendra's team did.

They're not necessary, it was just a nod to someone who's created very vivid (and very large) city sections!

[EDIT: I should also add that we're not publishing any mission packs, redistributing it in any way, or doing anything else that would warrant asking the Author's permission per the terms that were laid out in the Legal notice, nor are we seeking to publish this map for profit - therefore, I'd be surprised if there were issue. If, however, Purah would like us to completely disavow his work, we would, of course, be more than happy to. It's really more of an homage than a challange.]

[EDIT2: Very cool find, Lorgan... verrrry interesting stuff!]

.j.

[MorbusG]

@Sola: You've come attached to the idea of HT not being SQ. Could you give some more thoughts as to why? The one with Ramirez's toughboys isn't valid: they didn't know where Garrett lives, they knew where he was buying lockpicks from.