Mapping out The City.

[jtr7]

Thanks a bunch, Sxerks! I've always wanted to see this.
Someday, when I get my own computer and don't have to use the university's...

By the way, I can only see the third map...

[Mugla]

This is just great, Sxerks. It seems bigger than I first thought, though...
Now if we just align the Kidnap! -map with the Lost City (I think one of the obelisks can be found easily on both, and perhaps the south-end crypts are of use?), we might find out that the Cetus Amicus' sea-entrance is closer to the T3map sea than we thought (Assassins! getting aligned into the OQ and SQ border).

Hm-hmm... Or am I going in circles again? Perhaps I've lost track again, and need to get back again on to it.

[Solabusca]

The Lost City and Assassins Dromed.

As for Murkbell, I don't think it matters since it's from a FM. It's up to the FM authors to find a place for their missions on the map.
I haven't gotten real in depth with the Shalebridge debate, but I think it might be to crowded in B.

Excellent work on the map analysis, Sxerks.

As to Murkbell - it's just something to fill that spot on the map, as has already been noted. As to the OQ containing Shalebridge and it being too cluttered - well, that seems to tie in with quotes about the City itself, if TDS is to be believed.

I keep having the sinking suspicion that Fort Ironwood is something like the gates of the barricades - especially when wandering in the walled off cemetary behind it. No, not because of the presence of zombies, as that's explained in-game as Pagan meddling (although the continued presence of undead in the Catacombs may help with that), but because of two other reasons:

One - the monument to the Cataclysm - is this a reference to the Night of the Barricades?

Two - the generally run-down look of the cemetary - the cracked walls, the crumbling ceilings. Given that the Hammers take great pride in their status as Wallbuilders, I'm surprised they've allowed it to decay to this level... unless it's part of the Barricades, and they've barely taken back this portion.

Ah well, another tangent. Feel free to take a look at the sum total of the debate, in any case.

.j.

[theBlackman]

I get all four as Thumbnails. Would like to see them larger, but from what I can see you are doing great.

[MorbusG]

I suggest anyone who cares about this project let their views be known.

B makes most sense to me (yes, I'm awfully quick turning my jacket thank you).

[jtr7]

Edit: Fixed problem, imageshack didn't like the GIFs for some reason.

Yeah, I can see them now. Eventually, I'd like to see how the two KD maps from TDP/Gold and TMA stack up. The TMA map would show where we might find the docks, whether or not they are immediately behind the big green bay door.

And, to the topic at hand: I vote for A.

Those Mechanists really like those big green bay doors when large bodies of water are nearby. Are they copper plated wood? They're all over Rampone's warehouses and down at the KD Site. I'm always thinking about stuff for my fan-fic. Anyway...

[Sxerks]

Ok, there it is with the map from T2, not much of a change in size.


Measurements:



Streets:




EDIT***************
if images are not available they may be found here:

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Mapping_the_City

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/sxerks/

******************

[jtr7]

Wow! It feels like Christmas already!

[str8g8]

Well, I count 4 votes for A (5 if we count Sxerks), and 2 for B, so far. Remember though it is not a matter of who's right or wrong, just making sure we get the best possible concensus before proceeding. If it turns out to be B I will be happy to go down that road knowing we exhausted the alternatives.

Sola: believe it or not, that was my initial impression regarding Fort Ironwood. Earlier in the thread I speculated whether the fort could've been constructed on the Walls of Sealed Section as a response to the Catastrophe. It was felt however that the Fort is considerably older than the date of the Catastrophe. It occurs to me now, however, that if you were building the wall, you might choose it's exact path to coincide with a major fortification. In other words the precence of the Fort could've helped dictate where the barricades should be built. Getting the Sealed Secion to fit around Fort Ironwood is not so easy though, as I remember the map is pretty crowded round there.

Sxerks: Nice to see someone actually making maps in this thread As Mugla says, it might offer some insights into the layout of the City after all. If you were to drawn a coastline on the T2 map, where would it lie?

cheers
str8g8

[Mugla]

Unfortunately, it would lie in the River-bed. Do you see the wee-extra on the east side of the map? *That's* where it went, not down into the catacombs, as I first thought.

Anyways, not official (I think), but something. Please skip to OQ for the meaning of this link.

[Solabusca]

Unfortunately, it would lie in the River-bed. Do you see the wee-extra on the east side of the map? *That's* where it went, not down into the catacombs, as I first thought.

Anyways, not official (I think), but something. Please skip to OQ for the meaning of this link.

Her'e's what Mugla was pointing towards:

* Old Quarter: A diverse middle-class neighborhood in the heart of the City. In the first Thief, the area is a walled-off City section. A generation or so ago, a mystical artifact called the Eye caused the Cataclysm, a horrendous event that created undead in the Hammerite Cathedral cemetery, and somehow in the ensuing chaos (the fire may have been a defensive measure) the Old Quarter caught fire and burned out of control. The Old Quarter was walled in to keep surviving zombies in and people out. What remains is an abandoned mess of ruins, debris and wandering undead (as well as wild animals). By the time of Deadly Shadows, the Old Quarter is once again inhabited, with the Hammerite headquarters, Fort Ironwood, located here. A solemn monument sitting in the cemetery was erected as a Cataclysm memorial. The main gated entrance to the Keeper Compound is also here, but hidden by Glyph magic.

Below that they list Shalebridge.

* Shalebridge: Neighborhood between the Old Quarter and the Docks. Close to where Garrett lived in the Metal Age. The infamous haunted Cradle is located here, mostly walled off but still accessible from the city.

All standard Wiki disclaimers apply, obviously.

[Sxerks]

Is there a reference to "Kidnap" starting at the Docks?
If there isn't the coastline could be any distance away from the Green door.

As shown by this generic picture I made up:



They are using a sub to get there.

EDIT***************
if images are not available they may be found here:

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Mapping_the_City

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/sxerks/

******************

[Solabusca]

Is there a reference to "Kidnap" starting at the Docks?
If there isn't the coastline could be any distance away from the Green door.

As shown by this generic picture I made up:



They are using a sub to get there.

Kidnap starts at the sub-dock, not the Docks district itself - Garret's just sneaked off the submarine. Only after wandering around and seeing the building does he realize that the sub is docked UNDER the City, and that Karras must have found an underwater passage leading to it.

Then he escapes using the tunnels he already knows about, heading up to the sewers and then street level. Your diagram is pretty much right on the money, in that respect.

.j.

[jtr7]

Although the color of the earth within the Lost City isn't what we would expect from the obvious volcanic activity, would it be a stretch to assume the "access" tunnel could be a lava tube? Maybe Karath D'in sank as the magma pocket below it drained into the River. Yeah, it's a stretch.

[Mugla]

I doupt there's any other possibility than having an underwater entrance for the sub-marine (especially when almost no one ever saw it, as can be read from the fishermans note in T3 Docks), but I thought it would bring some maps closer (and thus tightening the net around the rest to bring some definitive conclusions) if the exit would had been in the vicinity of the Docks.

Anyways, we should take into account the Sunken Citadel too, as it would seem that the afore picted sea-channel has to go very close to it. Also the correct depth could be derived from both underground areas, as you have to descend deeper to get to LC, but only through the sewers to SC; the land has to slope sea-wards anyways.
I know this would put us into the 3rd dimension already, but a small diversion to get the possible sewers charted out for the fan-missioners (and see how deep a channels we have and where(thinking of Baffords spider-cave here too)) might not be poorly spent time.

[Solabusca]

Once again, Mugla, that takes us down the path of the Sunken Citadel being another abandoned part of Karath-Din that the Kurshok have inhabited after their exile from the surface world.

It's the path I consider to be correct, as well

The sub-base is below Markham's Island - far enough that the lighthouse could fall into disrepair (ie, it's not important enough to keep up) and be ambushed and taken over quietly by Dark William Markham between supply runs; near enough that it can be used to signal Karras.

Somewhere out in the depths of the sea there's an entryway, and the mech's followed it and surfaced in a grotto near KD, far beneath the City. They had to dig their way in, so Karras probably figured out where it was in his researches, and designed the Cetus Amicus for just this purpose. We know it takes G. a while on the sub to get from the sub-base to the KD site... and is deep enough that he can see squid out the portholes.

Why yes, I did just play through Kidnap!

.j.

[Solabusca]

Well folks - since we're still in the midst of trying to determine where Shalebridge should be placed... let me direct your attention to the drepts_tale_engl_none_30.rad file in your T3 directory.

I quote:

"She hunts now in Auldale, but 'twas in Shalebridge her murders did begin..."

The video footage? It has the camera zooming into the map of the City, with the words Shalebridge Cradle on the screen.

Not the words, though. He did not say "'twas in the Cradle", but in Shalebridge, referring to the area as he does Auldale - as a district!

Add it to the list of proofs, my friends! You can see the video capture earlier in this thread. If I hadn't been replaying it this morning, I'd never have recalled it!

.j.

[Mugla]

Phew! That seems definitive enough, luckily.
Okay, let's try to explain the few unpleasentries we have with this version, and get on with this atlast.

[MorbusG]

Woot! Does this mean Shalebridge is decidedly at/near/around the lowest bridge?
If so, the thing with that is that we desperately need more space for it, and can not atleast take it from Old quarter or Docks. Does it sound silly if SB would extend along the road coming from the lowest bridge (below the road, obviously)?

[str8g8]

Well I'm sorry to spoil the party. First off, let's look at the cutscene in full, which I have transcribed. (Note that the important bit is in bold, and more accurately quoted here).

D:This place hath nothing of value for you to steal.
G: I'm more interested in those papers of yours ... if they can tell me anything about a ... a crone that talks to statues.
D: Thou hast seen the Hag?
G: Not just seen, she tried to kill me, but I hear you've been trailing her for years.
D: Yea, I have followed her trail, but it hath not been clear, I even doubted anon that her crimes were more than my own imaginings, but that thou hast seen her as well ... 'Twas in my boyhood, in the orphanage known as the Shalebridge Cradle that I spied her. I didst play at a game with mine friend, and was hidden, and mine friend sought me, then a hag, an bent an evil apparition came from the darkness ... near enought to touch, my friend didst scream, but I was a child, and afraid ... and then, twas over. The orphanage grew a dark and haunted place, and now none dare enter. When came I to my manhood, and was saved by the order of the Hammer, I sought the hag again. The Hag wears death upon her as a cloak, some who meet her vanish, others with bloody work put upon their bodies, [something] told of creatures made of stone, and ever, the tale of a hag, a bent old woman, ever old, but growing no older, in a span that hath taken me from boyhood to mine own age.
G: Can you tell me where to find her?
D: She finds her prey now in Auldale, but 'twas in Shalebridge her murders didst begin. Seekest thou a start upon her trail there, tis the only place I e'er spied her for certain ... but I dare not ever return to that place.
G: Well, it's a good place to start looking. I have no interest in being the latest in her string of murders.

It always seemed pretty clear to me that Drept is talking about the Cradle here. "tis the only place", "I dare not return to that place" = the Cradle. Garrett says "It's a good place to start looking" and goes to the Cradle.

So, close but no cigar, as they say. but keep digging. Also I want to give Doc_Brown more time to get back to us, before we press on, as he's the one who kicked off the whole map-making thing this time around.
cheers
str8g8

[Solabusca]

str8g8, I think the phrase I've quoted above is important:

'Twas in Shalebridge.

Not 'twas in the Cradle, not in the Shalebridge Cradle.

'Twas in Shalebridge. Used in reference to her CURRENT HUNTING GROUNDS, the district of Auldale. You don't refer to a single building by the name of an entire district.

Yes, Drept dares not go back to the Cradle. But the cradle, sad to say it, seems to be in Shalebridge - by his own admission. Unless the entirety of the orphanage is Shalebridge.

.j.

[str8g8]

Yes, I got it the first time. Believe it or not, I am very well acquainted with Drept's tale, it being one of the best cutscenes in T3. But, perhaps I wasn't clear.

I believe 'Twas in Shalebridge is just another way of saying Shalebridge Cradle.

Of course, your interpretation strenghtens your argument somewhat ... and it might be enough to sway the vote, which is all fine . I just think you are overstating it (again) and was pointing out the other possible interpretation.

[ascottk]

I interpreted that she started in Shalebridge but moved to Auldale. Not Audale which used to be Shalebridge.

[str8g8]

Not Audale which used to be Shalebridge.

I don't think anyone interpreted it that way, scott

Let's try to explain the few unpleasentries we have with this version.

Trying to sum this up a bit, there is a discrepency between the T1/T2 picture of the city and the one presented in T3, this has been pretty much the whole problem. And so it is with Shalebridge - T1/T2 evidence pulls it northwards across the river, T3 evidence points to it being south around Shalebridge Cradle. And let's not forget that even with T3 there is inconsistency with regard to the placement of the Cradle (and so Shalebridge) so that in a cutscene we see it labelled at the first bridge, while in-game we see it in the Old Quarter map, which is tied to 2nd bridge via the final cutscene which marks the Catastophe monument. This much we all know. So as for creating a truly accurate map, this is doomed; if the city is a jigsaw then several pieces are missing and the pieces we have aren't even from the same box!

Perhaps my attachment to the original layout stems from an attachment to the original games, over and above T3. But in other ways T3 is the most complete version of city (for instance the city map and city sections). Maybe we should allow the T3 data to override the T1/T2 data, where there is such inconsistencies?

One possibility would be that Shalebridge straddles the river, being the area around the Shale Bridge, on either bank. This would mean there is more room for big addresses on Taft avenue. It would also mean that the infamous servant's chatter could refer to the big river too.

Shalebridge

[Sxerks]

The T3 Old Quarter:



The only thing I can say for sure about this map is that the cradle is in the old quarter.
The gates leading off to the other areas, only give a general direction, except maybe the one to the keepers compound.


By the way, the T3 editor is not as easy to use as Dromed for these kind of maps.

EDIT***************
if images are not available they may be found here:

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Mapping_the_City

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/sxerks/

******************