Mapping out The City.

[Mugla]

I doupt there's any other possibility than having an underwater entrance for the sub-marine (especially when almost no one ever saw it, as can be read from the fishermans note in T3 Docks), but I thought it would bring some maps closer (and thus tightening the net around the rest to bring some definitive conclusions) if the exit would had been in the vicinity of the Docks.

Anyways, we should take into account the Sunken Citadel too, as it would seem that the afore picted sea-channel has to go very close to it. Also the correct depth could be derived from both underground areas, as you have to descend deeper to get to LC, but only through the sewers to SC; the land has to slope sea-wards anyways.
I know this would put us into the 3rd dimension already, but a small diversion to get the possible sewers charted out for the fan-missioners (and see how deep a channels we have and where(thinking of Baffords spider-cave here too)) might not be poorly spent time.

[Solabusca]

Once again, Mugla, that takes us down the path of the Sunken Citadel being another abandoned part of Karath-Din that the Kurshok have inhabited after their exile from the surface world.

It's the path I consider to be correct, as well

The sub-base is below Markham's Island - far enough that the lighthouse could fall into disrepair (ie, it's not important enough to keep up) and be ambushed and taken over quietly by Dark William Markham between supply runs; near enough that it can be used to signal Karras.

Somewhere out in the depths of the sea there's an entryway, and the mech's followed it and surfaced in a grotto near KD, far beneath the City. They had to dig their way in, so Karras probably figured out where it was in his researches, and designed the Cetus Amicus for just this purpose. We know it takes G. a while on the sub to get from the sub-base to the KD site... and is deep enough that he can see squid out the portholes.

Why yes, I did just play through Kidnap!

.j.

[Solabusca]

Well folks - since we're still in the midst of trying to determine where Shalebridge should be placed... let me direct your attention to the drepts_tale_engl_none_30.rad file in your T3 directory.

I quote:

"She hunts now in Auldale, but 'twas in Shalebridge her murders did begin..."

The video footage? It has the camera zooming into the map of the City, with the words Shalebridge Cradle on the screen.

Not the words, though. He did not say "'twas in the Cradle", but in Shalebridge, referring to the area as he does Auldale - as a district!

Add it to the list of proofs, my friends! You can see the video capture earlier in this thread. If I hadn't been replaying it this morning, I'd never have recalled it!

.j.

[Mugla]

Phew! That seems definitive enough, luckily.
Okay, let's try to explain the few unpleasentries we have with this version, and get on with this atlast.

[MorbusG]

Woot! Does this mean Shalebridge is decidedly at/near/around the lowest bridge?
If so, the thing with that is that we desperately need more space for it, and can not atleast take it from Old quarter or Docks. Does it sound silly if SB would extend along the road coming from the lowest bridge (below the road, obviously)?

[str8g8]

Well I'm sorry to spoil the party. First off, let's look at the cutscene in full, which I have transcribed. (Note that the important bit is in bold, and more accurately quoted here).

D:This place hath nothing of value for you to steal.
G: I'm more interested in those papers of yours ... if they can tell me anything about a ... a crone that talks to statues.
D: Thou hast seen the Hag?
G: Not just seen, she tried to kill me, but I hear you've been trailing her for years.
D: Yea, I have followed her trail, but it hath not been clear, I even doubted anon that her crimes were more than my own imaginings, but that thou hast seen her as well ... 'Twas in my boyhood, in the orphanage known as the Shalebridge Cradle that I spied her. I didst play at a game with mine friend, and was hidden, and mine friend sought me, then a hag, an bent an evil apparition came from the darkness ... near enought to touch, my friend didst scream, but I was a child, and afraid ... and then, twas over. The orphanage grew a dark and haunted place, and now none dare enter. When came I to my manhood, and was saved by the order of the Hammer, I sought the hag again. The Hag wears death upon her as a cloak, some who meet her vanish, others with bloody work put upon their bodies, [something] told of creatures made of stone, and ever, the tale of a hag, a bent old woman, ever old, but growing no older, in a span that hath taken me from boyhood to mine own age.
G: Can you tell me where to find her?
D: She finds her prey now in Auldale, but 'twas in Shalebridge her murders didst begin. Seekest thou a start upon her trail there, tis the only place I e'er spied her for certain ... but I dare not ever return to that place.
G: Well, it's a good place to start looking. I have no interest in being the latest in her string of murders.

It always seemed pretty clear to me that Drept is talking about the Cradle here. "tis the only place", "I dare not return to that place" = the Cradle. Garrett says "It's a good place to start looking" and goes to the Cradle.

So, close but no cigar, as they say. but keep digging. Also I want to give Doc_Brown more time to get back to us, before we press on, as he's the one who kicked off the whole map-making thing this time around.
cheers
str8g8

[Solabusca]

str8g8, I think the phrase I've quoted above is important:

'Twas in Shalebridge.

Not 'twas in the Cradle, not in the Shalebridge Cradle.

'Twas in Shalebridge. Used in reference to her CURRENT HUNTING GROUNDS, the district of Auldale. You don't refer to a single building by the name of an entire district.

Yes, Drept dares not go back to the Cradle. But the cradle, sad to say it, seems to be in Shalebridge - by his own admission. Unless the entirety of the orphanage is Shalebridge.

.j.

[str8g8]

Yes, I got it the first time. Believe it or not, I am very well acquainted with Drept's tale, it being one of the best cutscenes in T3. But, perhaps I wasn't clear.

I believe 'Twas in Shalebridge is just another way of saying Shalebridge Cradle.

Of course, your interpretation strenghtens your argument somewhat ... and it might be enough to sway the vote, which is all fine . I just think you are overstating it (again) and was pointing out the other possible interpretation.

[ascottk]

I interpreted that she started in Shalebridge but moved to Auldale. Not Audale which used to be Shalebridge.

[str8g8]

Not Audale which used to be Shalebridge.

I don't think anyone interpreted it that way, scott

Let's try to explain the few unpleasentries we have with this version.

Trying to sum this up a bit, there is a discrepency between the T1/T2 picture of the city and the one presented in T3, this has been pretty much the whole problem. And so it is with Shalebridge - T1/T2 evidence pulls it northwards across the river, T3 evidence points to it being south around Shalebridge Cradle. And let's not forget that even with T3 there is inconsistency with regard to the placement of the Cradle (and so Shalebridge) so that in a cutscene we see it labelled at the first bridge, while in-game we see it in the Old Quarter map, which is tied to 2nd bridge via the final cutscene which marks the Catastophe monument. This much we all know. So as for creating a truly accurate map, this is doomed; if the city is a jigsaw then several pieces are missing and the pieces we have aren't even from the same box!

Perhaps my attachment to the original layout stems from an attachment to the original games, over and above T3. But in other ways T3 is the most complete version of city (for instance the city map and city sections). Maybe we should allow the T3 data to override the T1/T2 data, where there is such inconsistencies?

One possibility would be that Shalebridge straddles the river, being the area around the Shale Bridge, on either bank. This would mean there is more room for big addresses on Taft avenue. It would also mean that the infamous servant's chatter could refer to the big river too.

Shalebridge

[Sxerks]

The T3 Old Quarter:



The only thing I can say for sure about this map is that the cradle is in the old quarter.
The gates leading off to the other areas, only give a general direction, except maybe the one to the keepers compound.


By the way, the T3 editor is not as easy to use as Dromed for these kind of maps.

EDIT***************
if images are not available they may be found here:

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Mapping_the_City

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/sxerks/

******************

[Solabusca]

The T3 Old Quarter:



The only thing I can say for sure about this map is that the cradle is in the old quarter.

That particular entryway, yes.

.j.

[Doc_Brown]

I was just resting my eyes!

Okay, I admit it, I so enjoyed my newfound free time that I decided to selfishly wallow in it for awhile instead of jumping right back into this. Like Mugla said, plans don't always go as they should. Still, when you've, say, owned a stack of games for two years and never had the time to play them, maybe you deserve a break. But I'm back now, for real this time, and I tremendously appreciate the fact that my opinion is valued in these matters.

So, after going over the past ten pages to brush up on the state of the union, it seems the big issue at this stage is the A/B question, am I right? So what it comes down to is the most compatible evidence. If we go with A, the discrepancy is the naming of the Cradle. If we go with B, the discrepancy is the river comment (and the Ambush! map, unless we make str8g8's suggested shift). Of the two, A seems the best choice to me. The Shalebridge Road at least tries to address the discrepancy, whereas B simply has us disregarding evidence. But if I've overlooked something in my absence, by all means correct me.

While I'm here, I should also mention my stance on Murkbell, Shoalsgate, and the like. Personally, I say we leave these comlpetely out and to the discretion of others. With FM's, I think there are far too many for us to ever fit together as a whole (think of the size of the task!), as well as the canon issue. As for supposed districts, I believe we shouldn't deviate from certainties. We must be strict if we are to accomplish this task. Better, I say, to leave the area between Shalebridge (A placement) and Auldale vague, so that each of us may choose for ourselves what lay inbetween, be it Shoalsgate, Murkbell, or whatnot.

[van HellSing]

Shoalsgate is from Thief2 (Shoalsgate Station from Framed), not an fm. I'd just say it's a street name though.

[Solabusca]

I was just resting my eyes!

...

If we go with B, the discrepancy is the river comment (and the Ambush! map, unless we make str8g8's suggested shift).

AND the most recent connection, the cutscenes in TDS that suggest to myself (and others) that the Cradle is in Shalebridge. Take another look, oh my tired-eyed Doctor.

Of the two, A seems the best choice to me. The Shalebridge Road at least tries to address the discrepancy, whereas B simply has us disregarding evidence. But if I've overlooked something in my absence, by all means correct me.

This is my concern - WHAT evidence?

In game dialogues and maps that cross all three games indicate that Shalebridge is not that far north, and that it is directly across a river (not necessarily THE river), from Newmarket.

TP indicates that it's across the river from Newmarket. (Servant Conversation)
T:MA indicates that its NE of South Quarter. (Ambush!)
TS indicates that it's near the Cradle (Cutscene for Drept's Story)

All I'd like is some concrete evidence that points to another location - hell, even str8g8 initially had similar doubts in his first post to this thread.

While I'm here, I should also mention my stance on Murkbell, Shoalsgate, and the like. Personally, I say we leave these comlpetely out and to the discretion of others. With FM's, I think there are far too many for us to ever fit together as a whole (think of the size of the task!), as well as the canon issue. As for supposed districts, I believe we shouldn't deviate from certainties. We must be strict if we are to accomplish this task. Better, I say, to leave the area between Shalebridge (A placement) and Auldale vague, so that each of us may choose for ourselves what lay inbetween, be it Shoalsgate, Murkbell, or whatnot.

Oddly enough, I agree for the most part - I just needed something to take the place of str8g8's placement.

.j.

[EmperorSteele]

...

You know what this reminds me of?

Star trek.

More specifically, the debates fans get into when wondering why Klingons, in between the orginal series and The next generation (a span of like 75-80 years), suddenly grow giant ridges on thier heads, including the older ones who would have been alive pre-ridge. The prevailent theory is such:

"The limited creator theory", where they say the entire 'trek universe was made for entertainment, and that at first, those who made "the universe" did not have the money or supplies to show the klingons they way they should have looked. (Kind of a satirical, tounge-in-cheek perspective =P)

My point?

T1 and T3 were rushed to hell, first of all (As can be seen by the glaring inconsistance between the keeper map and the actual street layout in dromed), and in T3 they wanted a map that only represented our relativly few areas of play. Therefor, I think we need to apply a similar stance to the "limited creator" theory and feel free to discard the T3 map entirly, as it was meant to hold together THAT game and that game only, without regaurd to established continuity or even a little bit of fanon (Fan canon, for those unfamilair with the term. Creators DO indulge in such things; anyone who watched FF7: Advent Children can attest to that!). Afterall, if they made it for the X-box (and made us loyal fans deal with loading zones) just to get a few more customers, would they not then cater to those customers by not including information on the map that would have otherwise been irrelevant (And possibly confusing or contradictory) to the game in general, but then given us loyal fans a GOOD map (ie one that included information from the other games) so we wouldn't have to have this debate? (damn that was a long sentance)?

Does anyone get where I'm going with this? It's "limited creator" all over again, except is was more a limitation of time and imagination... so in that, do we really need to take the t3 map seriously?

[Solabusca]

Well, obviously... I mean, it's not like we've got anything else to do other than sit around debating the placement!

(I'll give a big ol' so folks know I'm not being serious...)

.j.

[Sxerks]

So here is the Thief: DS map from in game:



The locations of the icons "should" be where the in games maps are placed.
But "E" should be the docks, that's not even close. Its hard to take this map seriously. It is the Thief: DS map not the T3 map
"B" is where the clock tower is/was and also St Edgars.
"D" should be the graveyard in Fort Ironwood, and the cradle would be to the EAST of it right next to the river. Although is looks like Fort I. is labled where the blue dot is on the map.
From the ingame objective: "The Cradle is in the Old Quarter near the gate to the docks". The OQ entrance is the main front entrance to the Cradle grounds, there are no other entrances.

From that, Shalebridge could be a district(or whatever you call it) in the OQ.
You could even go as far as saying, anything on that side of the river that isn't a Quarter is part of a Quarter, like the Docks would be a district in the SQ, Newmarket could be in the New Quarter, Hightowne could be in the North Quarter, and so on.
So it is fine with me to put it the way it is in the "B map" and it makes sense now, but now we just have to make everything fit.

EDIT***************
if images are not available they may be found here:

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Mapping_the_City

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/sxerks/

******************

[Greeny]

Attempt at a Shalebridge solution:

Hi, I've been lurking in this thread for a while; now I'm going to try and help out. What if the Shalebridge district is the area around the second bridge (shale-bridge) and it is split in half by the river? Then we could move the Ambush map south from its current position so the arrows to Shalebridge point the correct way; and also move Assassins south so that New market is reasonably close to Shalebridge: explaining the "I've never seen the river so low..." quote. I've modified a map posted earlier to show what I mean:

http://www.jm4seven.plus.com/temp/greenysmap.jpg

Are there any massive problems with this setup?

[Mugla]

Does anyone get where I'm going with this? It's "limited creator" all over again, except is was more a limitation of time and imagination... so in that, do we really need to take the t3 map seriously?

Yes, we're aware. We put similiar disclaimers all over the thread already, but, well... no sane person IS expected to actually read through it all, hm?

It's a puzzle. A little game of wits. Like sudoku or limericks.
And it has a purpose; to help fan-mission makers into a more immersive world.

Attempt at a Shalebridge solution:

Interesting one.
Unfortunately I've been away from this work for so long (again), that my opinions can be safely disregarded, but I still think something similiar might be the answer. No second opinions, but a clear single-solution map is what I'd like to see.

[str8g8]

@Doc_Brown: glad to have you back! And not sitting on the fence either. Excellent!

@VanHellsing: remember there is also a Shoalsgate tavern mentioned in the readables in Framed. I think it's OK to speculate on an area (not just a street, but not quite a district) called Shoalsgate.

@EmperorSteele: You're right of course, we could just call T3 non-canon and go back to the maps made by others earlier in this thread which were pretty complete (especially scumbles) but a unified map, as Mugla said, is the ideal, and something we are quite close to I think.

@Greeny, been thinking along the same lines. Obviously it's a good thing that we arrive at similar conclusions independantly. I just wanted to work through the logical conclusions of scenario B, rather than retrofitting a scenario A map.

I have placed the maps much as you describe, but have gone a little further, for instance, getting rid of the kink in the river, which was really only ever a side effect, and moving New Quarter. There may have been a good reason for keeping New Quarter where it was, but I can't think of one (except perhaps a tenuous link to NewMarket??). The result is ... OK (I think). New Quarter comment is still viable - New Market would be the first posh area you would reach coming across the river at Shalebridge.

cheers
str8g8

[Solabusca]

@Greeny, been thinking along the same lines. Obviously it's a good thing that we arrive at similar conclusions independantly. I just wanted to work through the logical conclusions of scenario B, rather than retrofitting a scenario A map.

I have placed the maps much as you describe, but have gone a little further, for instance, getting rid of the kink in the river, which was really only ever a side effect, and moving New Quarter. There may have been a good reason for keeping New Quarter where it was, but I can't think of one (except perhaps a tenuous link to NewMarket??). The result is ... OK (I think). New Quarter comment is still viable - New Market would be the first posh area you would reach coming across the river at Shalebridge.

cheers
str8g8

Whoah... interesting. Very interesting.

A throwback to your earlier ideas too.

I like the reinterpretation more than I like trying to shoe-horn Shalebridge into the existing map A; but as always, both maps are incredible.

Bloody talented individiuals and their bloody virtuoso skills.

.j.

[EDIT: I take it that it's still the Baron's home between Dayport and Eastport? Oh, and I noted Darkside - an extrapolation?]

[jtr7]

I thought Shoalsgate Tavern was a reference to the bar out front of Shoalsgate Prison near the starting point of that mission.

[Solabusca]

... I feel it necessary, once more, to point something out.

str8g8 is a frighteningly talented individual.

I may hotly debate him about certain placement elements, but at the end of the day - his mapwork is incredibly high-quality, and his artwork even more so.

So I'd like to take a moment to thank str8g8 for his continued involvement with this thread - hades, he's been one of the driving forces behind this thread since he joined it - and commend him on the work that he does that we can all enjoy as a group of thief fans.

Damned fine work, str8g8. We're lucky to have you.

.j.

[str8g8]

Yes, I thought you'd like this one, Sola But really, it's just a sketch, the final one will be much prettier.

Funny, though, it does bear more than a passing resemblance to the first map I posted here. Also notice the date on that map - 12 months ago.

I originally had Darkside in Shalesbridge. Threre was a ref to "a Darkside whorekeep" somewhere, forget exactly. So I was just wondering where the red light district would be - obviously it would be by the Docks! I realise that it might not be intended to be a actual area, like the undermarket, but it seems to fit ok.

I thought Shoalsgate Tavern was a reference to the bar out front of Shoalsgate Prison near the starting point of that mission.

Yes, that might be the case.

Which 2 things brings me to my next point. I am planning 2 versions of the map. The first will be the Canon Map, which will not contain any unnessessary extrapolations, but will try to locate all the major sites mentioned in the series. It will be free of speculation as much as possible (for instance, Darkside would not meet these entry requirements, nor would a Shoalsgate area). The second map, the Community Map (which will really just be the Canon Map with an extra layer of data) will include as much information as possible, and try to locate FMs and name streets and so on. I will make a request on the FM editor threads for builders to place their missions (if they want to ...). Notice that there are grey areas around the main quarters? This will provide room for new quarters and districts not mentioned in the canon ... in this way the City can grow.

cheers
str8g8