Mapping out The City.

[MorbusG]

Quite. Except that that one needs some refinement. And how about getting it into a more browser-friendly form?
Angry wench?

I can make the "symbols" as separate images, but I don't know how to make layers available to browsers. There is a thing called "Ming swf library", which could pull it off if I really stretch my imagination, but I haven't studied it closely.

I can't remember where I stumbled upon the name Angry wench, but it's the pub in Auldale, just next to inspector Drepts office.

[Doc_Brown]

I thought it might be helpful if we have a visual reference for the solution we're discussing, so I've thrown a little something together--assuming, of course, I understand the suggestion correctly. I also apologize for the fact that it's based off of an older map, so some things (like the Eastport/Dayport debate) remain unchanged.

Here we go.

Is that about what you guys had in mind?

If so, I see a snag right away: the Assassins map references a Shalebridge that is more to the NE. If we move that area down, we've practically wiped out Wayside. With that in mind, I've come up with a rather... unorthodox solution.

Wild thang.

You may commence with the deconstruction.

[Mugla]

You scared me there, Doc. I think you meant Ambush! instead of Assassins! -map there, right?

Anyways, dropping Ambush! all the way to the Docks like MorbusG suggests will keep Shalebridge as the lowest one, and bring Crippled B. closer to Rampone's, as per the suggestion from S&R.
We can draw the district-line through the marketplace, so G. is still in SQ.
Pulling SB up to be the second was something I believe especially str8g8 supported because of the Fort-logo in the T3 map though, so I'm don't know what others are about this.

For some reason I can't find said map's link, so I hope these verbal illustrations were enough. As I understand though, the placing will be most tricky.

[str8g8]

Anyways, dropping Ambush! all the way to the Docks like MorbusG suggests will keep Shalebridge as the lowest one, and bring Crippled B. closer to Rampone's, as per the suggestion from S&R.

I don't think we can move the Ambush map much further south, without encroaching too much into Wayside, as Doc_Brown says.

I think that extending the Shalebridge area up and down the banks is a better solution. And in fact, if we do this, then there is no need to move the Shale Bridge or the Cradle at all, as the Ambush note "To Shalebridge" refers to the area, not the actual bridge.

However, extending the Shalebridge area all the way up to the third bridge might be stretching things a bit, imo. Much better to stop at the second bridge and leave it at that, as it achieves much the same results.

btw, the Fort Ironwood logo versus Cradle cutscene thing is insoluable, it is just an inconsistency within T3 itself, so we have to go with our gut instinct.

[Mugla]

Might not be evident at first, but if you try, you can fit it well within the district lines you yourself have been using. The trick is to use the correct scale from the glyphs cutscene and placing the marketplace between the lowest road-fork (where the docks text is). Garrett's home will be on the left side of the octopus-park, the arrows will point along the roads stretching outwards.

And I did give a solution earlier on the logo-problem; they're hovering above the spots on the map, so that they wont obscure the roads leading to such hot-spots. I know, it will still be a step too high even if placed over the actual text, but then again that just shows the incompetence of the T3 map's maker. (Biasing your views here, beware! )


But this is once more about the direction we want to stretch the work here, so it doesn't really matter in the end. Or, am I forgetting something again?

[MorbusG]

I somehow understood that the "logos" are just showing the landmarks situated in that area, ie. not the actual locations. I guess I thought so because all of them are exactly above the area-labels and centered on text.

[Doc_Brown]

You scared me there, Doc. I think you meant Ambush! instead of Assassins! -map there, right?

Hey, I scare me too sometimes. You are correct, sir, I meant Ambush!

Much better to stop at the second bridge and leave it at that, as it achieves much the same results.

Then I would imagine that this is more to your liking, yes?

There you go.

Random sidenote here, but I just gotta say I kind of like the coloring technique I employed here. Seems to imply the borders without explicitly stating them.

Edit: Just staring at the latest edition, doing a little thinking, and the following occured to me. Mind you I'm branching off into creative territory here and not hard facts, but still...

Back in the City's early days, the river was not as massive as it was now. In fact, the shallowest part nowadays--surrounded by Shalebridge--was actually dry land back then, built up and populated like any other area. Due to whatever reason, however, the waters rose and flushed it away. What sections remained fell into rot and ruin, which explains the current shape and state of the district today. While the bridges and buildings thereupon were later additions, nonetheless the state of the surrounding district took a similar toll on them as well.

Consider now the servant's conversation. If the waters were to fall enough for you to walk across Shalebridge, you could theoretically look at rebuilding. A slum district, perhaps once known as the best marketplace in the City, returns to glory and steals the thunder of competitors like, say, New Market.

Just a thought.

[sprenger5]

Back in the City's early days, the river was not as massive as it was now. In fact, the shallowest part nowadays--surrounded by Shalebridge--was actually dry land back then, built up and populated like any other area. Due to whatever reason, however, the waters rose and flushed it away. What sections remained fell into rot and ruin, which explains the current shape and state of the district today. While the bridges and buildings thereupon were later additions, nonetheless the state of the surrounding district took a similar toll on them as well.

Consider now the servant's conversation. If the waters were to fall enough for you to walk across Shalebridge, you could theoretically look at rebuilding. A slum district, perhaps once known as the best marketplace in the City, returns to glory and steals the thunder of competitors like, say, New Market.

That sounds pretty good actually. Say during Thief 2 when the Mechanists were killing a lot of the trees in town...well trees roots work as natural water damn, but with the roots gone, nothing to absorb the water, therefore the river rose. Just adding my creative thought to yours :P

[Sxerks]

Sealed Section Measurements:



City Map with some scaled locations and measurements:

This assumes that the sealed section fits inside the roads circling the area in the north of the city. Scale is base on that alone.





I don't think Shalebridge would be more than one bridge, it's not called Shalebridges.

And as for it being on both banks, it would be nice if there were some real life historical districts that were on both banks of a river, just for context. I think a river would be a natural district boundry.


EDIT: N bridge wrong measurement, should be 900

EDIT***************
if images are not available they may be found here:

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Mapping_the_City

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/sxerks/

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[MorbusG]

Most excellent stuff! The longest bridge would be only 44 meters on that scale, which is a lot more bigger scale than on "micromap". Makes me wonder how wide are ships. Also the tunnel to ocean and Markhams island from kidnap is huuuuge.

I'm getting really thrilled about this!

[Mugla]

Well, the presumption was that the hook of a road you fit the *whole* SS was supposed to be one of the similiar shaped roads just below THC: Example.
For another view over the scale, check the T3's ending cutscene; the glyph lits the neighbourhood nicely for some measurements.


Seriously people, don't be afraid to drop the scale into a tighter package; the City might continue over 6-times bigger outside the T3map. We still have several districts outside of this, and they need some space too. (Edit: Though it seems others are a bit more ready for the bigger scale. Hmm.)


Doc_Brown, spenger5; Yes, seems quite the theory there boiling. Would the Lost City have much effect on these plottings, do you think?

[Solabusca]

I like the idea of an inhabited bridge. It fits - Shalebridge Road could be an extension of that; a small area on one side or the other could be the totality of the Shalebridge district (hence the shipping directions for Manny Jabrile). Unless there are actual streets on the bridge, as well... if it's wide enough, a possibility, I suppose.

Given that the road seems to stretch to the West (and may have a different name on the East side), I'd suggest that the small area encompassing the Shalebridge district be moved to the west side rather than the East.


Historical reference - London Bridge:



.j.

[Sxerks]

My presumption was that roads would be diverted around the Sealed Section.

I've looked at the T3 glyph cutsceen, and it really isn't helpful for measuring.

Muglas Scale:




And the Sealed Section may not even be near that loaction, it might be near the middle bridge instead.

@MorbusG Don't you mean 440 meters?

EDIT***************
if images are not available they may be found here:

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Mapping_the_City

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/sxerks/

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[jtr7]

Awright! Thanks again, Sxerks! Your map work is valuable in and of itself, not just within this topic.

[Mugla]

Humm... Didn't help? Well, I did something along those lines more than a dozen pages back or so. Here's the pic it's based on (this view is inside the road-fork that surrounds South Quarter in T3map).

Everyone says it's far-fetched to read so into artistical parts of the game, but for me it is always part of the big picture that the game paints about it's world.


And thanks be to Sxerks, once more! That's the scale I've been thinking of quite accurately (even if it needs a bit nudging so that THC wont splash into the River). What do you think of it?

I like the idea of an inhabited bridge.

I got the impression this was the situation in the before times, but not anymore? But a handy map there. Always like to compare with something real.

[str8g8]

This is a bit of concept art for my FM. It's a picture of the Shale Bridge. It's based on the old London Bridge and other similar examples.

I have speculated that this bridge was built upon the original crossing point of the river. Settlements were often formed around such natural fords, and we have speculated that "shale" may have evolved from shallow (and this ties in neatly with the servants conversation).

to recap:
We are now working with the idea that the area of Shalebridge takes in the bridge itself and also surrounding streets on both sides of the river. (It may well be there is no real life example of a district straddling a river like this; personally I don't care, this is a fantasy setting after all, and it's a good idea). We have also stressed that it is not an official district or quarter, but rather something that has come into common usage by the inhabitants of the City. The only question that remains is how far this area extends into Old Quarter and Dayport. So far, I think Doc_Brown hit the nail on the head in his last post. Remember though, that an un-official area you might get different opinions depending on who you talked to in the City; in short there would be a bit of a grey area, so it might be acceptable, even preferable, to be in-precise about this.

[Mugla]

I'd like to represent one boundary to the east side; This. (The green is SB, the X is a home to mr. and mrs. Guard).
I looked at Angelwatch from left and from right, and in the end I could not perceive it obscuring the 'whole' mountain-range in any other way, unless the house of the S&R guard would be somewhere right next to it.
Shalebridge slums would seem ideal for his abode (though it would strike the mechanists even more odd, now that a guest would be on vacation just next doors...).



Anyways, your River seems too high for a one-mast boat to pass under...

[Solabusca]

I got the impression this was the situation in the before times, but not anymore? But a handy map there. Always like to compare with something real.

I've always liked the inhabited bridge concept, true... but have done some delving into real world examples to provide some detail as well.

to recap:
We are now working with the idea that the area of Shalebridge takes in the bridge itself and also surrounding streets on both sides of the river. (It may well be there is no real life example of a district straddling a river like this; personally I don't care, this is a fantasy setting after all, and it's a good idea). We have also stressed that it is not an official district or quarter, but rather something that has come into common usage by the inhabitants of the City. The only question that remains is how far this area extends into Old Quarter and Dayport. So far, I think Doc_Brown hit the nail on the head in his last post. Remember though, that an un-official area you might get different opinions depending on who you talked to in the City; in short there would be a bit of a grey area, so it might be acceptable, even preferable, to be in-precise about this.

I'm equitable to that.

Oh, and stop being so damned talented with the art-stuff. Love the concept art.

.j.

[str8g8]

Love the concept art

Cheers. When I've finished this damn FM I'll be doing the concepts for the Cabal, the first community project from the T3 editors. It would be really good to have the map in a state where it could replace the T3 City Map for this project ...

Anyways, your River seems too high for a one-mast boat to pass under

Ah, but the tide is in

As for your SB boundary, taking into account my earlier point, ie we shouldn't try to be too absolute where this line it etc. I preferred Doc-Brown's edge, which stopped at the major road running north south on the East Bank. I would argue that Angelwatch doesn't have to obliterate an entire mountain range from view, just spoil the view, and be able to cast a shadow over the guard's house.

But you have raised another point; now we don't have to switch around Dayport and Eastport (not that I was particularly against the idea in the first place) but I prefer the present arrangement.

[Doc_Brown]

That sounds pretty good actually. Say during Thief 2 when the Mechanists were killing a lot of the trees in town...well trees roots work as natural water damn, but with the roots gone, nothing to absorb the water, therefore the river rose. Just adding my creative thought to yours :P

Well if we really want to link such an event to the existing City history, I think we're going to have to go farther back than the intervening period between Thief 1 & 2. I have to wonder about the possibility of the Catastrophe, considering its proximity to the river upstream. Perhaps there used to be a dam where the Auldale Bridge now stands...

I don't think Shalebridge would be more than one bridge, it's not called Shalebridges.

Given that the road seems to stretch to the West (and may have a different name on the East side), I'd suggest that the small area encompassing the Shalebridge district be moved to the west side rather than the East.

I'd like to represent one boundary to the east side

As y'all wish, a few modifications are in order.

Round and round we go.

The immediate downside I see to this is the issue of the Ambush! map. I've tossed the notation back in there for you guys to see firsthand what the problem is. One potential solution is to assume Garrett was merely indicating the fastest route to the nearest thoroughfare (the \ shaped one the arrows point at) that would get him to Shalebridge.

[T-Smith]

Just a small note - all the maps I've seen have the overlook mansion pretty far out at sea. Yet in the mission itself, looking out north from where the ships would come in, the mansion seems to be fairly close to the city, and actually The City kind of wraps around it in a 'C' shape (if you can picture what I mean). I was just wondering if this was ever brought up at all.

[Mugla]

T-Smith: Yes, I spoke of this once after some of my observations; for me it seems Overlook sits on a small peninsula, off at the west coast from the bridge. The City would then naturally continue further west from said location, as you saw too.

Unfortunately the compass in the Docks of T3 is 90 degrees off (verified by Krypt as I remember), so a compromise is still in use, placing Overlook onto an island.


Doc_Brown: Have you tried the lower placement of Ambush! yet? The map still has a Shalebridge Road on it's east side, perhaps it could be placed into the road-fork over there (Marketplace would then be "the source of light for the Jacknall's Paw" in the T3 ending cutscene, if you get my meaning).

[Sxerks]

Ambush map:


PSD file:photoshop file


City map scales:



EDIT***************
if images are not available they may be found here:

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Mapping_the_City

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/sxerks/

******************

[Doc_Brown]

Mugla: Visuals, man, visuals! Show, do not tell!

Sxerks: You'll have to forgive me for not wishing to dive into the thousand post ocean in our wake, but what were the bases for the two different scales you're using?

[Mugla]

Along the lines Sxerks just posted. The lower one.

He said he did a scale once by fitting Sealed Section inside the road fork west of the northest bridge (seen in his upper map).
Then I noted we used that road fork inside Sealed Section instead (seen in his lower map).