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Thread: Mapping out The City.

  1. #1176
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by Solabusca
    some of the notes found in the Pagan mission seem to preclude it
    You are quite right, but boy is that a bummer. It seemed like such a good idea.

    Still, I'd like to explore it a little further. Does anyone have a screencap of the Pagan Tunnels map handy, by any chance?

  2. #1177
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Brown
    You are quite right, but boy is that a bummer. It seemed like such a good idea.

    Still, I'd like to explore it a little further. Does anyone have a screencap of the Pagan Tunnels map handy, by any chance?
    Actually, I've been mulling it over - considering the damage/decay to the location, the initial forming of the Pagan Sanctuary could have taken place before the Barricades came up. After the Dark Project/Metal Age era, the Pagans could have moved back into it and walled it off from the rest of the Barricades.

    Makes sense to me, Doc.

  3. #1178
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Brown
    Does anyone have a screencap of the Pagan Tunnels map handy, by any chance?
    http://whitecortex.net/citymap/index...agantunnelsMap

  4. #1179
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Thank you, MorbusG, I'd misplaced that link. Won't happen again, I assure you.

    Cartographers, I submit for your consideration, a new iteration.

    A few changes to bring to your attention:
    • After doing a little comparison with the requested Pagan Tunnels map (i.e. linking it up with the SQ and Pagan Sanctuary), I discovered our placement was a little off. The new relationship between the two surface locales is a bit more accurate.
    • Without yet resolving the question of whether the Sanctuary is within or merely just outside the Barricades (I support the latter), I've nonetheless positioned it so that the river flowing through one lines up with the river flowing through the other. (To achieve this, however, I had to move SQ a bit and plop Sanctuary right on the major junction there.) I would also go so far as to postulate that this river may be the continuation of the river from New Market.
    • While examining the final glyph, artifact map, et al, I also determined that our placement of Stonemarket required adjustment. Interestingly enough, it now lines up with Market Street within the Barricades.
    • Finally, I would like to raise the question as to whether or not we should consider the Barricades as falling within Downtowne. Remember, at this point we are considering Downtowne as a sub-district of the Old Quarter, and one could argue that the Cathedral would most likely be located in the quarter's central area. Thoughts?
    Last edited by Doc_Brown; 25th May 2006 at 01:07.

  5. #1180
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Nothing wrong comes to mind with the first glance. However, we should remember that the broad-mindedly planned lines will have to fall into order eventually. Can you fit it all together, when we draw the streets by hand?
    Will the streets and streams still interlock nicely, and the spaces between house enough land to cover the designed structures there?

    But I suppose the next phase has to answer these questions. Getting ready for it, chaps?

  6. #1181
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: Kansas City
    Excuse this novice mapper, but does anyone have some "blank map-paper"?

    I just finished my first play project with those 5 ingame City Street maps.
    C:\games\thief3\CONTENT\T3\PCTextures\DynamicallyLoaded
    (And this was nothing when compared to your fine cartography work, around here. T3 Climbing and that Thief's Highway idea )

    But, for a nice start, a perfectly blank version of that map paper would be great for my next small idea of overlaying it with just the dark street-outlines from those 5 maps. (Oh, I might include those curling purple-arrows, the red-hands and maybe the houses, if they don't just block-out at a low scaling, you know?)

    Thanks!
    Last edited by tiger@sound.net; 12th Jun 2006 at 00:32.

  7. #1182
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    Looks good, Doc

    Altho the pagan area would go neatly in the more "unknown" region if T3 SQ would be flipped, but y'all know about that already, so I'll just shut up

    Tiger: Iirc, you can find the blank map from the same place as the rest of the T3 maps. I don't think you can get the purple arrows and stuff in there because they are overlayed in by the game I believe.

  8. #1183
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: Kansas City
    Quote Originally Posted by MorbusG

    Tiger: Iirc, you can find the blank map from the same place as the rest of the T3 maps. I don't think you can get the purple arrows and stuff in there because they are overlayed in by the game I believe.
    Right in here, ehhh?
    C:\......\......\CONTENT\T3\PCTextures\DynamicallyLoaded
    (And of course, that HDMAP_City.dds is not even what I want to start with.)
    Last edited by tiger@sound.net; 12th Jun 2006 at 00:33.

  9. #1184
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    I would also go so far as to postulate that this river may be the continuation of the river from New Market.
    seems logical, works for me

    Interestingly enough, it now lines up with Market Street within the Barricades.
    Even better ...

    Whether Barricades falls in Downtowne or not ... hard to say, it seems to fall on the cusp between Downtowne, StoneMarket, and Old Quarter proper ... zombies would be unlikely to respect civic boundaries it might be better to think of it as a sub-district in it's own right now, by default.

    tiger:
    If you install the editor, you will get a blank map in that same directory, plus all the icons and so on, tho I don't know exactly where they would be ...

  10. #1185
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: Kansas City
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    tiger:
    If you install the editor, you will get a blank map in that same directory, plus all the icons and so on, tho I don't know exactly where they would be ...
    There they are under as "HDMAP_Default.dds" within the
    "C:\......\.......\content\T3\PCTextures" and
    "C:\......\.......\content\T3\Textures\DynamicallyLoaded" directories
    Last edited by tiger@sound.net; 12th Jun 2006 at 00:31.

  11. #1186
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    I think it time, then, that I pose the question: does anyone think there are any issues that still need to be addressed with the current layout? I stress current to indicate solely what is on the map at this point, and not that which we still need to add.

    In the event that we are in agreement, I believe the time will have come to go through the OMs, one at a time, and find them a home.

    Edit: I should note that I do not wish to imply this layout here will remain unchanged. As we add the OMs and discuss the relationships between the districts, things may change ever so slightly. The point is simply to discover whether or not we've reached the stage where we can take this to the next level.

  12. #1187
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: Kansas City
    Hello Doc Brown.
    I just did a very quick placement layout of those five City Street maps.
    (And this was just for comparing a nearly 1/4 scale and all the exits.)
    HDMAP_Default-placement.jpg.zip

    And it gets very "west justified" and then it gets interesting with two exits.
    Because basically all of the Old Quarter exits would require a wee bit of fill-in for streets or extended pathways to connect them to their respective entrances, north and south.

    (And I'm sorry that I really didn't know this, before my dumb idea, above.)
    ***
    So, as a secondary idea, for sort of "visually faking" an interconnect between those exits and entrances, would overlaying that HDMAP_Default.dds and its maze of streets make a lot more sense? (But I don't know about ever matching its very dark brown paper?)
    *** (Hey, at least it has a "sense of balance" on one side.)
    HDMAP_City-ORIG-placement.bmp.zip
    Last edited by tiger@sound.net; 4th Jun 2006 at 03:28.

  13. #1188
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Tiger...

    You've come late to the party. We've already gone over the maps in T3, and established that for the City to be as large as it is supposed to be, the sections you see in TDS city-mode are only small portions of the neighbourhoods they're representing.

    We're amalgamating all three games here, not just relying on a single resource.

    Always good to have another set of brains on the project, though.

    .j.

  14. #1189
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: Kansas City
    Thank you, very much, Solabusca!
    So this will be like a global "World of Thief" ingame map?

    (I've seen this rather colorful one by Doc Brown, btw.)
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3.../herewego8.gif
    And will Doc Brown be adding a special selection of sepia brown-tones for his final version? (Sorry about that slightly implied-pun, Doc.)

    But may I say, like WOW as it stands!
    And now, I'm really looking forwards to seeing it, during my game!
    (And I have only seen Konami's Silent Hill ever go this far with a game map.)
    Last edited by tiger@sound.net; 5th Jun 2006 at 06:25.

  15. #1190
    jtr7
    Guest
    Hey, Doc_Brown. Not really answering your specific question, but I'm content with the current iteration.

  16. #1191
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    To answer Doc_Brown, I'm mostly happy with the current iteration, barring the possible exception of the size/location of the Barricades, but that's something that can be sorted in the next phase of operations. Everything looks to be in just about the right place.

    Onwards, then?

    .j.

  17. #1192
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    ... and upwards

  18. #1193
    Member
    Registered: May 2006
    Location: Bologna - italy
    First of all i must admit it is very surprising and satisfying finding what a community could do for such a great game like the thief series, and this map could really become something very interesting, for FM editing, going deeper into the concrete shapes of the city and so on, really a great work is coming out of this.

    One thing I noticed was that as a basis you used only the citymap of Thief 3, but as an earlier map of the city was drawn for the thief 1 and Gold series (the elemental stones location in the keepers' grotto) and I looked at it many times I also noticed that those two maps (city Thief 1th series an city Thief Deadly Shadows) don't actually match, as the river is divided in two in the first map and in the second it comes to the sea. That could mean two things: the city is bigger than anyone thought (which is really impressing for such a medieval city) or the city has been reneewed also on his structure, building over the river, making underground channels, or directly building actually on the river.

    as I saw the map of the old quarter of Thief 1 in this one I thought you are making a whole thief series map and this note might be of use, but if you made a particular choice I'm not conscious, excuse me for interrupting, and take this post as a mere appreciation of your work!

  19. #1194
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Tiger, Lord Dalar
    You're basically coming at the same problem from opposite ends. The current iteration of the map we've developed is derived from an analysis of the maps from all three Thieves. While taken individually it is a fairly quick and simple matter to put them together, the problem lies in the often contradictory relationships between the trio. Consider that the TDS City map shows a particular relationship between Old Quarter and its surrounding districts, while the Assassin's map shows a different set of relationships. The current iteration is our best guess compromise, accomodating all of the evidence.

    Oh Give Me a Home...
    Let us start as is appropriate: at the beginning. Depending on your viewpoint, this could be either A Keeper's Training or Lord Bafford's Manor... so let's do both.

    A Keeper's Training
    Difficult, aye, difficult. We don't have much to go on with this one. We either assume it's a part of the Keeper complex of TDS, or we must simply stick it someplace where there's room (which would likely entail waiting until the very end).

    Lord Bafford's Manor
    Ahhhh... a breath of fresh air by comparison. Quite a bit to dig into here. I believe it was once suggested that Bafford's fall in Old Quarter, and I think that's still a good suggestion. It seems a fair place for a lesser noble to be found, and one quote in particular suggests a proximity to Stonemarket (there's also talk of Viktoria's operations in the north districts troubling Bafford, which seems to corroborate the general area). North Old Quarter (as I've come to call it) would do quite nicely.

  20. #1195
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    Keepers training: my vote goes for being at keeper compound (in both games, we are given the impression it is a *huge* complex).
    Bafford: I'm OK with OQ, but SQ would do just as fine, too (somehow same kind of "feel" in it, as in blue heron's inn).
    Last edited by MorbusG; 7th Jun 2006 at 05:01.

  21. #1196
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    A Keepers's Training=the Keeper compound

    Generally, Bafford aught to be within Ramirez supposed turf so we can rule out the following:

    North Quarter, Shalebridge, Newmarket, New Quarter, Docks, Eastport, Dayport

    We don't think Ramirez runs Auldale either, so that leaves OQ and SQ as possible sites. Refining it further we know that Bafford's cook shops at Stonemarket, so we might expect Bafford it to be nearer to Stonemarket than New Market (or the market place in SQ) - so that narrows it down to north Old Quarter.

  22. #1197
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    There are two known Keeper buildings; the - Library at the Clocktower, Stonemarket, and the - Compound, near Fort IW, Old Quarter.
    The building in Thief TDP is also referred as the Compound, thus I'd assume the training mission takes place near Fort IW.
    Last edited by Mugla; 8th Jun 2006 at 06:07.

  23. #1198
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Let's not forget the abandoned Keeper complex in the Barricades--a fairly moot point in this discussion, but never let it be said we aren't thorough.

    /ponders Mugla's comments on Keeper locales

    Hmm... I'm going to have to load up TDS and check on something. At least we all seem to be in agreement on the general areas so far. In the meantime, in the interest of keeping our current momentum...

    Break from Cragscleft Prison
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only mountain range that we know to be visible from The City is to the East, right? It would seem to be our only option, though whether it is down by the coast or more northerly is anyone's guess.

    I'm open to suggestions.

  24. #1199
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: South Quarter

    May be totally irrelevant

    Just an observation, which goes against the 49 pages of posts here on this thread, but just a couple of facts im noticing recurring here:

    a) The ownershoip of thief has changed hands across companies in its history, and this means that not all staff will be the same and have the same detail or, care for that matter, about the legacy that is thief and this probably takes into account the discrepencies and blatant clashes betweens maps.

    b) Thief is a series, that spans actual time, as far as I know, the exact date and time of thief isn't known, (personally I'd place it in England around 1300-1400 but this is up for much debate), but we do know there have been 3 games of the series, and that means the cities have changed, and the maps will clash because new ideas by the creators of thief will correspond with different maps, and any city changes over time anyway, so it's pretty pointless trying to cram 3 games worth of maps into one super map, there will be a huge mess of overlaps and omissions.

    c) The maps for thief missions themselves are very poor, the scrolls garrett possesses in the game suck unbelievably, like they would in that era, and TDS maps are simply awful so I wouldn't take everything as read.

    d) people are including info from fm's, where thief fans are adding their own information, myself included.

    e) the people who made the game were only doing it for profit and *may* not have loved it quite as much as we all do, so they probably didn't care about map anomalies and conflicts, to them it was only a game and vehicle to make profit from.

    Personally I'd rather everyone put some of their time spent on the forums like we are alot, into creating more of our own fm's with the editors and trying to get as much knowledge as we can from the editors and designers of thief themselves. There's a huge future for thief to expand on, when I make my fm's, I only make reference to places in Thief anyway, the maps themselves are VERY vague and change from game to game, and this adds to the illusion and creativity of thief. Basically, forget the map clashes, while it may be interesting, bigger picture going on here, get creating awesome fm's and sharing ideas, how and when are we going to use this mega map anyway?

    PS you will probably all hate this post, and I hate to write it abit myself, but I'd stick up for the future of thief rather than the map clashes anyday.

  25. #1200
    Member
    Registered: May 2006
    Location: Bologna - italy
    @Werewolfintheshadows: actually I think you're quite right, the city has changed and it's almost certain that the gamemaps were developed level by level than as a great city were one has to cut out the space for a mission, but I think such a work as this map, patched with information and "history" of our beloved game creates a great satisfaction in those who work on it and could be an interesting materiale for other "gameideas" for thief, some haven't even imagined, if one has the passion, the time and the will to work on this, I think no one can stop him, and I, as a thief fan, understanding more than one points of view I'm simply very curious to see what comes out, so the only thing I really have to say is god luck, and I'm waiting to see progress, as I don't have the proficiencies to concretely help you out in this admirable fan Work

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