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Thread: Mapping out The City.

  1. #1276
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    New version.

    Decided to take the plunge and start putting down some temporary placemarkers derived from our discussion. In order to get the Keeper training grounds in place, I not only had to move Ambush! slightly to the west (the two locations are literally shoulder-to-shoulder) but also jump ahead a little and bring the TDS Keeper Library into the foray as well. Bafford's as well as Constantine's are both in place, though there's nothing really specific about their placement outside of the district in question.

    On a related note, I switched New and North Quarter in anticipation of placing the bank from TMA. Cragscleft, Bonehoard, and Mage Towers are all referenced, even though they fall off the map (the larger arrow for Cragscleft indicating a further distance from The City). I placed Undercover as per the talisman map, but I was unable to place either the Overlord's Fancy or the Opera House seeing as I don't have Thief Gold and therefore their maps (anyone?).

    The only other things I've left out are those that lay underground (such as the Lost City and the Maw... though whether that's even in this world at all is debatable) or Ramirez's Mansion, seeing as Garrett's map doesn't give us much more information than his map of the area does. So that pretty much covers the first game in its entirety. Now that I've stirred up the hornet's nest, let the debating begin!

  2. #1277
    New Member
    Registered: Apr 2005
    - I swear, I've never seen the river this low!
    - Drought twelve years back? That was almost as bad as this.
    - You can nearly walk across, up at Shalebridge!
    - Hmmm! Wouldn't New Market love that!

    Shouldn't new Market be neighbouring Shalebridge somehow?

  3. #1278
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Believe me, Mayday, we tried. Taking all the evidence from all the games, it was impossible to find a location for Shalebridge where everything stuck. The quote in question was the one piece of evidence we had to strike from the list in order to make it work.

    Which isn't to say we can't come up with an explanation for the New Market comment, however...

  4. #1279
    New Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by mayday
    - I swear, I've never seen the river this low!
    - Drought twelve years back? That was almost as bad as this.
    - You can nearly walk across, up at Shalebridge!
    - Hmmm! Wouldn't New Market love that!

    Shouldn't new Market be neighbouring Shalebridge somehow?
    I am pretty sure that those exact in game quotes were debated for many pages earlier in the thread. The meaning behind them was so ambiguous that various theories were presented based on them.

    Edit: Too Late

  5. #1280
    New Member
    Registered: Apr 2005
    Sorry.

  6. #1281
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Brown
    Believe me, Mayday, we tried. Taking all the evidence from all the games, it was impossible to find a location for Shalebridge where everything stuck. The quote in question was the one piece of evidence we had to strike from the list in order to make it work.

    Which isn't to say we can't come up with an explanation for the New Market comment, however...
    ... I wasn't gonna touch it with a ten-foot pole, I swear.

    I still like the smaller tributary rivers that str8g8 posited (and the ever-present canals)

    .j.

  7. #1282
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by mayday
    Sorry.
    Don't be. I don't blame you for not reading through a 50 page thread, especially if you're just trying to help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solabusca
    I still like the smaller tributary rivers that str8g8 posited (and the ever-present canals)
    I'm not opposed to bringing them back into the mix, it just becomes a question of justification of where...

  8. #1283
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    I don't think we left out that piece of evidence at all.
    Shalebridge was defined as an inhabited, overbuilt bridge. The meaning "wouldn't Newmarket love that" could be interpreted in so many ways, that we decided to leave that as some insider joke for the local news.

    F.e. Newmarket could love the outbreak of the poor from the Shalebridge locale (the bridge being monitored for their ilk), as there are *two* markets inbetween SB and NM; Ambush!'s and Stonemarket.

    I still like the smaller tributary rivers that str8g8 posited (and the ever-present canals)
    I'm not opposed to bringing them back into the mix, it just becomes a question of justification of where...
    Unless it's directly derived from an existing canal, connecting to the sea or another canal, I'd rather we skip them for now.
    They are decorative, but non-canon for now.
    Last edited by Mugla; 30th Jun 2006 at 05:04.

  9. #1284
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Well, the waterways and canals ARE canonical, aren't they? They run through Ambush, Assassins, The Haunted Cathedral, even Bafford's sewers have more of the look of a covered canal than a straight sewer.

    .j.

  10. #1285
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: thief.wikia.com
    "Shalebridge was defined as an inhabited, overbuilt bridge."
    When did that happen, have I been gone that long?
    I recall people talking about a living bridge, but there was no evidence.
    I hope it wasn't added just because str8g8 made a FM.

    As for waterways:
    All the missions that have water seem to be canals and not likely tributaries.

  11. #1286
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Sxerks
    As for waterways:
    All the missions that have water seem to be canals and not likely tributaries.
    Very true. I should not have used the word, when canals/man-made waterways was what was intended.

    .j.

  12. #1287
    jtr7
    Guest
    From M11B02, one of the lists of guests invited to Angelwatch:
    "Bandly Rofthoffer -- Declined (on holiday in Shalebridge)"

  13. #1288
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Already argued and debated into the ground when trying to decide if Shalebridge was a slum or a 'respectable' district.

    .j.

  14. #1289
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    Constantine's manision should be on the edge of the City in North Quarter though ...
    How is that? I can't find this info.

  15. #1290
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Very well, sorry for the misleading input.

    On Shalebridge:
    Well, memory fails me there then. But the basic idea stands, whether the bridge is inhabited itself or not. The 'district' (unofficial) extends a bit on both sides, so they might have referred to the eastern side's inhabitants.

    On waterways:
    Yes, the canals in the missions are the existing, canon canals we should include.
    The canals that didn't link these canals to the sea or to other canals (like the ones in ex-Shalebridge) are the decorative ones I thought we shouldn't put in.


    Hope I made sense this time. Should double-check my posts otherwise too.

  16. #1291
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    - I swear, I've never seen the river this low!
    - Drought twelve years back? That was almost as bad as this.
    - You can nearly walk across, up at Shalebridge!
    - Hmmm! Wouldn't New Market love that!

    Shouldn't new Market be neighbouring Shalebridge somehow?
    If you look at the current map that Doc_Brown posted, Newmarket is the first upper-class district you come to if you crossed the River at Shalebridge, after traversing the large diagonal road ... Considering all the other complications, this is good enough for me ...

    On to the rest of the map, I can see no issue with the placement, just a bit of nick-picking I would like to see Constantine's mansion further out, at the boundary of the City, and the Bonehoard located rather than just pointed to ... though I realise this will make your map bigger at this stage.
    This raises whether we should include the "unknown" districts I posited here (please ignore the rest of it, I'm just referring to the grey outer districts). These would be areas just not mentioned in the games, and so non-canon, but it makes the city bigger (and more like it is presented in cutscenes and so on) and also leaves room later on for FM content. I only say we should include it because things like the Bonehoard are to be located just outside the city walls ... but at the moment we don't have an outer boundary.

  17. #1292
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    I would like to see Constantine's mansion further out, at the boundary of the City
    So you mean it doesn't necessarily need to be in North Quarter? I'd vote for New Quarter for Constantine's mansion (in the boundaries of City). I'm sorry I can't throw in any hard evidence to back this up, but in general I have the "feeling" for New Quarter to be rather pagan infested area.

  18. #1293
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    While Constantine himself doesn't tell us much, his relationship with Viktoria does. From Ramirez we find out that she was once a fence for Raputo, so we can factor his turf into the equation. We also know that Bafford is concerned about her presence and makes mention of her operating in the north districts. Not only does this help solidify our placement of Bafford's, it implies a particular closeness about her proximity.

    Shalebridge is out due to its southernly location, and the division created by the river would seem to rule out New Quarter as well. Given the choice between New Market and North Quarter, the latter seems the best fit. A newer territory on the edge of town (and therefore a proximity to the wilderness beyond) would be an ideal place for someone like Constantine to set up his base of operations.
    It's not conclusive, but it is well-reasoned. I've grown wary of feelings. Why do you think New Quarter is pagan-infested?

  19. #1294
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    It's not conclusive, but it is well-reasoned. I've grown wary of feelings. Why do you think New Quarter is pagan-infested?
    Yeah, I forgot to include that I was still thinking about the New/North Quarter swap (which is included in the latest map version), as it fits in with the same piece of evidence regarding the Raputo turf.

    As to how I got to think New Quarter is pagan-infested... well, I really can't tell at the moment because I haven't got the slightest clue, but I'll keep digging through the quotes to see if I can recall.
    By the way, here are a couple of places where paganism has been spotted (T2)
    But the thing is, it's easier (for me) to think that the pagan lord is living in an area of which we know nothing about rather than right next to the wealthiest bank in the City.
    Last edited by MorbusG; 4th Jul 2006 at 15:50.

  20. #1295
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Yet again, a new version.

    The view has been pulled back, a very general City border laid down, and a few pieces (Constantine's Manor, Bonehoard, Mage Towers) adjusted accordingly. Cragscleft remains much as it was, though I've turned it into an inset to make the fact that it sits off the map even clearer.

    Have it at, me buckos.

  21. #1296
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    The Assassins map looks a bit too big, maybe. Ramirez mansion would be bigger than T3 OQ or SQ for example. And there is something about its placement that bothers me. One interesting thing (IMO) is that in-game it has this huge gate on its northeast wall, implying there is a big street going through it (or past it).

    Slightly off-topic; I tried The Bridge for the first time yesterday, and Oh. My. Gosh. Amazing job str8g8! I still can't find my jaw.

  22. #1297
    member
    Registered: Jun 2006
    Location: canaustralia
    Without trying to jump the gun, are you eventually going to label important locations, or places of interest, through naming or using a legend? It'd just be a bit easier to make heads and tails of for someone who doesn't know thief maps inside out...

    But on a positive note, it is a vast improvement on clarity compared to previous versions, perhaps due to the grander scale

  23. #1298
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    I agree with previous poster, work on the map is great to this point, but if specific places correspond to the centimeter with the games are of no importance to me. Especially when the parts in-game seems so extremely small compared to the city as a whole. If some parts are going to be that detailed the map will have to be filled out to that detail everywhere, and if so, the rest of it will be pure imagination anyway. And personally i do not think the designers had constructed a map this detailed when making the games, probably only where a few districts are.

    I really look forward to be able to use this map when gamemastering thief for my roleplayers, wouldn't it be a good idea to make one version of the same shape where all major roads, canals and important sites are marked, fixing the visuals (old yellow crumbling paper maybe?) in photoshop and posting it for use? Because, it seems, in this rate the map-project will go on until the thief fanbase dies out and noone will have the time to use it for their FM's and other projects.

  24. #1299
    jtr7
    Guest

    This map will only feature canon material as far as it can be deduced.

    Until the we've settled on where the missions take place in relation to each other, details will be withheld. The best placement of mission maps is the only concern right now. Of course, once everyone's in general agreement (there will always be things that bother somebody), it will be polished and labeled. After that, it may be best to leave it up to the individual taffers whether or not they want it to look like a map that Garrett himself would use, or a more precise map for an Fan-Mission-maker to get a sense of scale and plan his/her part of The City in a way that doesn't conflict with canon.

    The spaces in between are for Fan-made Missions to fill, or to be left alone.

    TDP/Gold & TMA provided enough material to squabble over for years. Then TDS came along and created new problems and inconsistencies. We are not too far from settling on the final placements. It doesn't make sense to keep it looking polished and labeled yet.

  25. #1300
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city

    A bit quiet here lately. Summer vacations, eh?
    I thought I'd push things forward a bit by presenting you guys with a vectorized version where it is easier to move around and scale things. I'd recommend using inkscape, which is easy to use, free, and available on all common platforms.
    The vector-map is a work in progress, and not everything is yet included in it, nor are all of the already included maps properly made, but I'll keep updating it into the same location.
    Thanks for informing about inkscape, Briareos H! Wonderful little program
    Last edited by MorbusG; 20th Jul 2006 at 08:24.

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