Mapping out The City.

[Mugla]

Checked the current maps through, and noticed we already placed all the locations there. They were placed in the latest overhaul, and should be correct.

What I'd start doin now really, are the final steps. We have pictures from the editors, let's twirl them about a bit in some medium which could be called a streetmap, and see how we can place them sensibly; by the millimeter.
Second, we need the legend. The explanations, reasonings and evidence we already discussed along the way.
Third, we need to do the actual artwork, and link it with the above material.
Fourth, the website.


Hope I'm not going ahead of you again, as I've tried to rush this part before, unsuccesfully.
As a last note, I'd still like to warn about the scale. No matter what, the T:ds ending cutscenes view of the glyph gives atleast me a quite specific scale for the centrum. As I've reasoned, the game is canon, no matter how little care was taken in the making. The game is the only image I have of the world, and the scale barely contradicts with anything else ecxept our need for a larger city.

[Sxerks]

Let me add to your list, Sxerks, by linking back to the one I had previously created:

The list I listed came from that list(pg 54) and the one on page 58, I just took out all the stuff that didn't have any reasoning behind it.

Checked the current maps through, and noticed we already placed all the locations there. They were placed in the latest overhaul, and should be correct.

The maps may have been "placed", but without justification for each the final map will not be accepted by the community.


Having looked at and drawn all in-game maps I can clearly say that the T3 team did not take T1,T2 maps into account and were not consistant with their own in-game maps, scale, and placement. With makes every decision about this entire project very arbitrary.

As far as the glyph cutscene goes, with that scale you should have been able to see the larger in-game buildings, and they also forgot to put the shalebridge bridge in as well.

[Mugla]

Without justification, because there was no evidence on which to work with. They were "best estimates" as per the architecture, the closest locations mentioned (Stone market in Baffords f. ex.) and the expansive-history we "perceived" (eg. which was a new district with space on it for larger, newer buildings, or where the mechanists seem to have influence, vs. the hammerites).
I think the reasonings are inadequate, and optional placements can be invented, but I hoped those would come up in the last phases I mentioned. We should get some extra motivation for digging up the last bits of evidence up, if we could convince ourselves it will be the last time we have to do it.


And as for the reasoning with which we evaluate evidence. Yes, I know I've been banging my head against yours here without much success more than once. I've always taken a step back, when I failed to explain my thoughts clearly enough, thinking I could later on come up with a lucid enough wording.

But I'm afraid I'll just repeat myself this time too; I don't give any value for what was supposed to be. We can't come up with a clear image from behind the scenes, if there never was "one" (they got muddled with their maps after T2, maybe even before?).
Nor is there justification, for we're doing this basically for the fans. We have to give them an image, that the games' images were not broken, that they can take any piece of image from their mind they had when they played, and base stories or missions upon them. We can't expect them to know what went behind the scenes, nor can we ask them to include a reason for a discrepancy from the real world to be added into their stories.

I'm not sure if I can convince you even with this. I know the cutscene had it's faults that even contradicted with material right next to it (the Docks artifact was shown deep inland), and that there will be details that simply cannot be "illustrated over" with a fancy explanation. But for me it's a bird's view over the locations I visited during T:ds, and the only indication of the scale of the City compared to that game's map.

If I couldn't convince you of my logic here, please tell it to me. Then I'll change my views instead.

[Doc_Brown]

The list I listed came from that list(pg 54) and the one on page 58, I just took out all the stuff that didn't have any reasoning behind it.

Sorry, Sxerks, I just saw that locations were missing; I didn't think that they may have been missing for a reason. Didn't mean to step on your toes.

What I'd start doin now really, are the final steps. We have pictures from the editors, let's twirl them about a bit in some medium which could be called a streetmap, and see how we can place them sensibly; by the millimeter.
Second, we need the legend. The explanations, reasonings and evidence we already discussed along the way.
Third, we need to do the actual artwork, and link it with the above material.
Fourth, the website.

I'll leave steps one, three, and four to our more artistic and resourceful members, but I'm willing to tackle number two. Keep in mind, though, this is going to take quite a bit of time, and that I'm counting on you guys to double check my work when I'm done. A single perspective is necessary to maintain a cohesive approach, but by no means infallible.

[Mugla]

You've done a wonderful work with step 1. already, along with Sxerks, Doc. It doesn't need artistic qualities at all, just clarity. Like a blueprint for the actual work.

I'll try to do something with the first two steps too, if everyone agrees we should proceed already. Took summer courses though, and my timetable looks filled, so I might end up being more trouble than use.
I'v forgotten so much already.

[all]

What I'd start doin now really, are the final steps. We have pictures from the editors, let's twirl them about a bit in some medium which could be called a streetmap, and see how we can place them sensibly; by the millimeter.

Ok, I'm sorry if I'm intruding or anything, but I can't help but react to this suggestion. I'm not sure I understand correctly this streetmap medium, but from what I understand, twirling the maps around would implicatet rotating them until certain streets would align from one map to another. If this is the case, I would object, since streets arn't necessarily all aligned, even less to the millimeter, especially in old cities... I must have misunderstood though...

[Mugla]

Indeed, must be the slang we've developed.
We've been against changing the maps original rotations, just as you are.
The work should be done by rigidly moving the pieces so, that the streets that *do* occur on two maps can be linked via the imaginary street-grid we need to build under the pieces. Also, the pieces should not clip with other pieces/water where they clearly shouldn't.

All we need here is a two/three-colour map that clearly states the consensus we've reached here, down to the accuracy of a house (where such data was provided). It's purpose is to be of help in the artistic version, nothing more (I think).


Please, tell me your approach to this mapping project, on that one issue. Where is your line in determining for what is canon and what is not? I wont let this lie this time, when the last pieces wait to be placed.
Remember, your opinions are just as correct as mine. This will be done for everyone, so all of us got a vote for the matter.
(In short for those who don't dare to scroll up even a page;
For me the T:ds ending cutscene shows a clearly derivable scale for the map provided in that game, but others don't want to take it into account for (atleast) the following reasons; 1. The scale shrinks the size of this mapped area greatly/somewhat. 2. One of the Last glyph pieces is shown to be inland, while it should be shown practically in the sea. 3. The movie has only artistic value, and is too vague to consider as a real piece. (even though it uses the very same map on which we have placed the other pieces).)

[Sxerks]

This is a slightly larger scale with the OQ/Cradle as the reference( intersecting roads, and the Cradle at the edge of the river).
Measurements would be: Entire viewable image area, 9359ft(1.77mi) Wide x 7488ft(1.42mi) Deep.
Bridges: 606ft,473ft,407ft.



And I did just go back over 60 some pages(not fun)

Locations:
The Dark Project
A Keeper's Training - part of the Keeper Compound - OQ

Lord Bafford's Manor - near Stonemarket(note to cook) maybe OQ near Hightowne?

Break from Cragscleft Prison - Somewhere E of the City, in the mountains

Down in the Bonehoard - ??? - maybe nearer the city, Audale?

Assassins - (Attached to Keeper Map) In Hightowne and New Market, Near North part of SQ

Thieves Guild - ??? - maybe Downtowne? (downwind)

The Sword - ??? - maybe Hightowne?

The Haunted Cathedral - Old Quarter, Audale street

The Mages Towers - W of the City (in line with Hightowne), just outside the limits

The Lost City - (Attached to Keeper Map)

Song of the Caverns - (Attached to Keeper Map)

Undercover - (Attached to Keeper Map)

The Maw of Chaos - ???

The Metal Age
Running Interference - ??? Rumford Estate, outside city area?

Shipping... and Receiving - Wayside Docks

Framed - ??? -headquarters of city watch - ?

Ambush! - SW of Shalebridge, North part in SQ

Eavesdropping - Easport

First City Bank and Trust - North Quarter

Blackmail - Tuart Estate ??? Estate outside city area?

Trail of Blood - forest ??? (m13b23 hunting in western countryside)

Life of the Party - Dayport

Precious Cargo - On Markham's Isle, somewhere S of the City

Kidnap - (Attached to Keeper Map)

Masks / Casing the Joint - ??? - In hightowne with other mansions?

Sabotage at Soulforge - ???

Deadly Shadows
OLD QUARTER - artifact location, Crossroads
Robbing the Cradle - (Attached to TDS OQ map) E
Fort Ironwood - (Attached to TDS OQ map) S
Of Brethren... and Betrayers - W of TDS OQ

SOUTH QUARTER - artifact location
Pavelock Prison - (Attached to TDS SQ map)
Into the Pagan Sanctuary - Mid Old Quarter, outside of the Barricades (entrance in TDS SQ)

AULDALE - location fixed
Still Life with a Blackjack - (Attached to TDS AULDALE map) N
Hag - (Attached to TDS AULDALE map) NW

STONEMARKET - artifact location
St. Edgar's - (Attached to TDS STONEMARKET map) E
Killing Time - (Attached to TDS STONEMARKET map) N
Keeper Library - (Attached to TDS STONEMARKET map) NW

DOCKS - location: lower right arc of final glyph NOT(artifact location final glyph cutscene)
The Sunken Citadel - Underneath Ocean (entrance in TDS DOCKS)
House of Widow Moira - SW of Docks (entrance in TDS DOCKS)

Checking Inn, Cashing Out - South Quarter
End of the Bloodline - South Quarter

EDIT***************
if images are not available they may be found here:

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Mapping_the_City

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/sxerks/

******************

[jtr7]

And I did just go back over 60 some pages(not fun)

You have my sincerest sympathies. And I still appreciate your efforts, even though I continue to provide no help at all, just moral support.

Going through the majority of the schemas for TDS has required multiple mental breaks (and resulted in a couple of mental breakages). Onward!

[Mugla]

And I did just go back over 60 some pages(not fun)

You will be receiving your knighthood shortly. Keep a watch on your mailbox.


I see you cropped the districts to a simpler form. Better if we don't try to play too much with them at this point really, so that was a good call.

And it seems you've separated Wayside from the other Docks. Well, it's true in T3 they were called merely Docks, without the Waysides.
Is that small dot in east Docks that lighthouse?


...Okay. I'll play around with the map a bit more. Be back at you one day.

What are other people thinking about this version?

[jtr7]

I'm not thinking anything negative about this version. I'm thinking the questions I have must have already been wrestled into submission, judging by the admonishment I receive when I have asked, even if I state first that the purpose of the question is to stimulate discussion, which it did.

Conversely, I'm thinking of all the now-silent people who will pepper the people actually WORKING on the map with questions, asking for justification for every little thing, when they could be asking now, while the team is open to suggestions. And then...and then there will be the baby geeks. ANd we will point them to this thread. And they will say, "I'm not gonna read through all 60+ pages. Can you just tell me why [blah blah blah]?"

I'm gonna have to read through all 60 pages to see if my questions have been answered definitively, already.

[demagogue]

I'm happy that the end is near.

It would be easier to comment on the reasons for placement after they get consolidated into a single document ... so it's not too fair to accuse people of not raising too much discussion on it now. I tried to keep up with this and that on occasion, but so much is out of my mind, I'd have to be refreshed to get a hold on what means what, and I'm probably like most of the silent majority out there paying attention.

My general thoughts for now are ...
- I like having the smaller scale (and suitably bigger city); Soulforge really hit that point home (edit: i.e., I like the scale as it is in these more recent maps, better than the crowded previous ones).
- I agree it's good to keep the district lines simplified for now, better to clarify that closer to the very end, and then mostly as part of the artistic part.
- I'm actually thinking that separating Wayside and the Docks is sort of a category mistake. The whole area is the docks; Wayside is like a particular sub-part, probably you could imagine run by a particular company or family, but at best it deserves maybe a dotted line or just the label, not as a whole other district per se, IMO. For a similar reason, though, I do agree that Wayside belongs closer to the river than a previous map which had them waaay off to the side, which is just taking the name too literally and doesn't make much sense for a successful dock.

[jtr7]

I was referring to one of the last times I actually asked a question about a mapping decision, which was quite some time ago, not so recent that the current state of development was an issue. "Accusation" is too strong a word for my petty comment about a trivial post. Believe it or not, I'm writing this with humorous intent, but I know damn well I'm failing to get that across. Think of my comments today as a good-natured ribbing that leaves a bruise. Something terrible happened yesterday, and I'm unable to keep the feelings out of my words. I apologize, but obviously I desire contact with the TTLG community, today. And yes, I'll be getting together with local friends as well.

I'm happy the end is near, too. To rephrase something I said earlier in the year: 2007 looks to be a great year for Thief fans!

[Traged-G]

wow, the scale seems about right. I posted a while back (page 49 I think?) about it and now it looks pretty good.

Only thing I would suggest at this point, mainly because I don't remember the details of the maps, and since there is so much open space around them, maybe some sort of game specific key could be added, so we know where and when these maps are used, for research purposes.

Basically just something to keep these as easily findable points of interest on the city map.

[jtr7]

wayside
n.
the edge of a road; area close to the side of a road
adj.
on, near, or along the side of a road

I believe the gate at the "North" side of the Map should lead out to Winston Avenue.

"1369 Winston Avenue
Wayside Dock District"

Anyway, given that the area of the Docks is on hilly ground and Wayside is flat and neither have any evidence of brothel activity, I don't have a problem with separate areas as long as they are within the same district, even only roughly. Also, at Wayside you can't see a lighthouse or an island. And where are those Dockside whores?

[Solabusca]

Anyway, given that the area of the Docks is on hilly ground and Wayside is flat and neither have any evidence of brothel activity, I don't have a problem with separate areas as long as they are within the same district, even only roughly. Also, at Wayside you can't see a lighthouse or an island. And where are those Dockside whores?

I'm not sure if you mean that the gate at the north of the Docks map should open up into Winston Avenue (more logical to me) or that the map at the north of the City should...

Anyways, I see the Wayside Docks district encompassing the entire western shore of the City; there may be a similar area on the Eastern shore, but the port sections seem to have been 'gentrified', at least in Dayport.

Don't forget, the portion of the Wayside Docks that we see in Shipping... and Receiving all seem to be part of the same warehouse complex (Rampone Dockside Shipping) - one sealed off from the rest of the district after hours. It's unlikely we'd see any bordello's inside a warehouse complex.

Really, the commentary about "dockside whorekeeps" comes from a snippet of in-game dialogue, and from the 'historical' tendency of such establishments to spring up wherever ships reach port.

Just some idle commentary on your post.

[jtr7]

I'm not sure if you mean that the gate at the north of the Docks map should open up into Winston Avenue (more logical to me)

Si Señor. 'Twas what I meant.
---
Of course the after-hours business on the 2nd floor of Lord Porter's tenement is nearly a brothel, and I don't think they're the ones being referenced. Winston Avenue could be the red-light area, entertaining sailors entering The City. If the prostitute had hit on Benny in Wayside instead....

[str8g8]

Well that's pretty awesome, and is a good deal clearer than the map we working with before, so well done Sxerks. You have achieved quite a monumental task and I think laid the issue of scale to rest (at last).

However, a couple of things I'd like to flag:

1. The old Dayport\Eastport switcheroo - didn't we come down on the other side of that particular problem?

2. The Wayside\Docks split. Wayside and the Docks and Wayside Docks seem to be used pretty much interchangeably by NPCs. My take on it is this - Wayside is the District, Docks isn't a district but just loosely refers to the waterfront area of Wayside. So it can be labelled on the map, but doesn't need a district boundary, colour etc.

3. Truart mansion in Hightowne - not necessarily wrong, but different from the working map. However, I still think the large grounds might indicate it should be nudged nearer the edge of the City.

Other than that, it's all good

[Sxerks]

@Mugla
-I didn't really seperate Wayside from the Docks, I was just playing with the idea that it might be a subsection or district of the Docks. Much like how Shalebridge, Downtowne, and maybe even Stonemarket would be districts of the Old Quarter.
And the dot is the Docks lighthouse, 100ft tall,40ft wide at that distance, or 50ft tall,20ft wide at half the distnace from the Docks.

@demagogue
-Do you mean you like the scale as it is now or that it should be smaller?

@jtr7
-"can't see a lighthouse or an island" those came in T3 so they wouldn't be in any T2 map. And you can't really go by the generic skybox fill-ins from T1,T2.

@str8g8
1- (E/D)Someone thought it would be to far for the guard to walk from his home in Eastport to his job at the Wayside, so after your T3FM was made Shalebridge moved across the river to be the guards home(S/D/E). But with this scale it would be less than a mile and also keep Shalebridge back over in the OQ. It was a messy couple of pages to go through and not much of a debate, with most people saying it didn't matter either way.
3- that is the Masks map in hightowne, Truart's is east of North Quarter with the other estate.

[all]

Doc_Brown vs. Sxerks

... FIGHT!

[Solabusca]

1. The old Dayport\Eastport switcheroo - didn't we come down on the other side of that particular problem?

I'm actually pretty certain that with the decision to base the speaking guard in SAR in Shalebridge, it was Dayport in the west, and Eastport further east. So yeah, you're right. (ie, going east it's Shalebridge -> Dayport -> Eastport -> The View in Question)

2. The Wayside\Docks split. Wayside and the Docks and Wayside Docks seem to be used pretty much interchangeably by NPCs. My take on it is this - Wayside is the District, Docks isn't a district but just loosely refers to the waterfront area of Wayside. So it can be labelled on the map, but doesn't need a district boundary, colour etc.

Y'know, I can live with that.

3. Truart mansion in Hightowne - not necessarily wrong, but different from the working map. However, I still think the large grounds might indicate it should be nudged nearer the edge of the City.

Definitely agreed on this one.

.j.

[jtr7]

I'm not worried about the whole docks thing, personally, I just like to share my thoughts and let the experts take it or leave it.

If only the shipping label had a single comma added, and read thusly:
"Wayside, Docks District"

...things would be easier. But that comma's not there, so I agree, Wayside is the district.

[jtr7]

A quasi-bump, as well....

This guy must be a child of the sea, eh?

Webster
Warden of Docks, Eastport, Dayport.

A postal address:

1369 Winston Avenue
Wayside Dock District

TDS description with plot points removed:

The Docks...the poor part of town...full of cramped tenements and surly residents. I wouldn’t come here looking for a helping hand, but it’s the right place to hire a few murderous thugs. Or for those who’re in the market for something rare and exotic, precious imports from ships are stored here until they’re moved to more wealthy districts. So the Docks can be a good place to rob...as long as you keep an eye out for fishy characters and, of course, the City Watch. ...the Docks [can be] cut off from the other districts...[by] the gates. If the Keepers are right, and there’s a dark age coming...then Docks is where to start searching for it. It’s about as dark as this city gets.

[Mugla]

Tried to look at the Docks from a few angles, and as long as the district is named "Wayside" somehow (not only "Docks"), we should be on clear waters (...opaque the least).

What jtr7 said about Winston Av. is interesting. Think we should grab one of those powerlines from T:ds manual map again... Forgot which ones were used again...

@demagogue; I think this scale goes about right now. Soulforge is a bit imposing now, true, but so would be an airport in a modern city. Some things take space.

[demagogue]

@demagogue; I think this scale goes about right now. Soulforge is a bit imposing now, true, but so would be an airport in a modern city. Some things take space.

I'm a little confused by your first sentence, but I think I get the gist of it.

BTW, just to be clear what I meant in referencing Soulforge. I was referring to this older version and its scale: http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ewego19vc7.gif

... where it seems to me that Soulforge is ludicrously big. So my last post just meant to say that that observation really hit home to me how much better the current scale (in the two most recent maps) is than that previous one ... because Soulforge is actually much more reasonably sized in comparison. I'm not worried that it's airport sized because it really is big; it just looked silly to see it take up an entire district to itself. The point is I'm happy with the more recent scale.