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Thread: Mapping out The City.

  1. #1676
    Thanks for the correction, Doc.

    Unfortunately, these remaining issues are likely to remain un-settled. But as long as the reason for going a certain direction can be shown to outweigh the opposing opinion, by pointing to previous posts and stating, "We've moved on from there," I say: "Next!"

    So... Undercover and the rotation option.

    All in favor say "Aye!"
    All opposed say "Nay!"

  2. #1677
    after weighing it back and forth, I vote nay, keep it straight as per the compass, not diagonal as per the sketchy map drawing

  3. #1678
    Can agree with Shadak here. The keeper map even has the size wrong. So we can claim this specific cartographer took a quick glance from one of the walls circling New market, and quickly estimated the position, size and facing of the building. Can't expect even the keepers to have up-to-date maps from each location (scenery seems to change quite quickly there), and this one was drawn for the sole purpose of pinning down the talisman-locations (which were later on scattered even beyond this particular map, for the frustration of the mapper).
    So I'll vote Nay.

    I'll be posting the map back here soon, if all goes well.
    Last edited by Mugla; 9th Aug 2007 at 10:00.

  4. #1679


    All in all, the map I give you now hasn't changed much from Sxerk's version. Reason for this is, there's a multitude of options by which we can proceed from here. I'll post my thoughts thus far, and hope your experience with image-editing will give some additional insights into the matter, to help us decide on the next changes.
    Please, read it all carefully, even if it is a long one. I'll have regular backups as things proceed, but these changes are the foundation of the final work, which is many steps up the road. If you don't cast even the slightest doupt on a certain aspect, I'll include it like written below. , based on Sxerks' map.

    -Buildings as in the editor, using four different browns to highlight themselves from each other.**
    -Passable surface dark green.
    -Passable surface on or below a building light green (not including rooftops).***
    -Water light blue in canals, darker in the River/sea (maybe changing to same blue).
    -Walls a distinct light brown. Will add some walls where the editor doesn't show them.

    Locatin changes:
    -Moved S&R to the west. Made the cove for it, and lined it with one of the major roads (Rampone's located on some boulevard).
    -Thinking on how to connect the keeper compounds(T1-T:ds). Try it yourself too.
    -Changed North quarter with New quarter.
    -I have this idea of moving Sealed Section by one street eastwards. By cutting a few edges, it could fit there neatly (Cathedral between the two roads). Your thoughts?

    -One layer for each game (done by Sxerks). Sub layers per missions.
    -One layer for the background; water, fog-of-war, main roads. These are considered estimates, that will be "layered over" by locations as we add them (thus a straight road might get some extra curves, fog-of-war gets "lifted" as a building is layered over it etc.)
    -Removed a few (hopefully) unneeded layers.
    ---Not done yet, reasons listed---
    -One layer for unofficial content (this one might need additional layers over time). Not done, as it has no content yet.
    -Atleast one layer for underground locations. Might be better to have multiple layers, and link the locations with their above-ground pairs, incase we still want to change locations.
    -One layer for unofficial underground locations. Again, not needed yet.

    Editing instructions (if you decide to play around with it. I'll continue once I get your okay though) :
    -One pixel should be about 2 squarefeets.
    -Use the *exact* colors mentioned above by using the eyedropper tool. You should dip deep into the existing buildings to avoid getting a diluted color. 4 pixels from the edge should be enough. This way we can change each field in the map at once, if we decide for the need of replacing/lightening the colors.****
    -I doupt we'll be filling much of the fog-of-war at this point. Be content in joining the major roads, canals and walls. Most of the City is still blank, and it'd be quite the fuss to come up with a decent pattern for scattering shacks, castles, housings and parks in there. We might have fan-missions pop up there soon anyway.
    -When adding layers, remember to keep them above the Background layer, so they will be show on the top of it, not hidden beneath. Unofficial content will most likely be one layer-set, much like each game has it's own.

    Last notes:
    -**As we know from the four color theorem ( ), we can distinguish buildings with a single color from each other by using four different browns. Other options are to depict all buildings "as one" with a single color, or by using outlines. An advantage for further editing should be remembered though; we can select and replace any single color map-wide, maybe to bleach the stronger ones and print it, so an artistic version can be drawn over etc. Also, we can change the colors (or add outlines) from a single color later on.
    -***We should decide on the limits of editing ingame maps. F. ex. coloring the gates with light green over the buildings they pass through, or remove some of the light greens from Ambush!, where regular rooves are colored such. Also, should we extend buildings, canals and walls beyond what the original missions depict *within the same layer*, or should we exclude such conjecture into a separate layer? Where does the line go?
    -****The official maps currently have anti-aliasing effects around them (blurring/dilution), which I've been working on removing (inevident from this version). This should help in managing buildings, and avoiding color-spilling or odd outlines if we try to use some of the filters. This might be unnecessary work, unless you want to change the colors map-wide suddenly, or use some odd filters for the artistic version. Consider this one carefully too.

    And lastly, apologies for the wait (and the possible let-down). What I managed to do thus-far is mostly just brain-work. But as you will be using these same tools yourselves (especially the artist!), I thought you'd appreciate if you could influence what I'll do next (lest corruption or loss of data within the work occurs in a permanent manner).

  5. #1680
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Mugla - I was under the impression that the Dayport -> Eastport switch had been established more fully - it was a point of contention with Sxerks map.


  6. #1681
    Had a nagging suspicion there. Noted, will change it unless someone claims otherwise soon.

  7. #1682
    I think Baffords is too far away from Stonemarket (to really be convenient for the cook I think it should be closer). I think it should be moved west and slightly south, so that it rests in the middle of the upper area of that central space. I agree with Sxerk's exact positioning of Stonemarket, exactly where it shows on the Hag map

    I think the extrapolations (walls, canals, backs of buildings) should be on a sparate layer, so we can distinguish "exact" canon versus, no matter how likely, non-canon.

    Undercover needs to be rotated back straight (but is in the correct position I believe, as is Song of the Caverns)

    There are a lot of green rooftops to be sure, so how about coming up with a whole new color for the passages, like purple or yellow or something else. We could easily adjust/get use to the new change.

    I say definitely keep the individual buildings the separate shades, not one blob.

    S&R, good job on that

    I agree with Solabusca on the Dayport/Eastport, plus I've always likes the nice and neat road into LOTP map

    Moving walled section east - I agree it would work just fine, any reason to?

    One request, a layer of small text labels for missions/areas/etc. Maybe a couple layers for this, with option to turn on just tons of labels. Like my labels here: ("City Map 25 Labeled")

    Maybe you could just extremely roughly and sketchylike, and very faintly colored, start doing the filling in the "pattern for shacks, castles, parks, etc". If you look up D&D maps you can find stuff to even just copy/paste real quick. Just an idea (maybe a nutter one!)

    GREAT work so far, I commend your efforts!!!

  8. #1683
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    I'd say AYE to rotating Undercover, both because it is indicated in the Keeper maps, and because it breaks up the abundance of 'squareness' the mini-maps are showing to this point.

    For a city that is described as a chaotic mass, it's pretty damned orderly, it seems.

    Oh, Mugla - I can't recall - was it you that was recommending we switch to Inkscape (open-source rescalable vector drawing) for the initial mapping ages ago? Because I still like that idea.


  9. #1684
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Finland, Helsinki rock city
    Quote Originally Posted by Solabusca View Post
    Oh, Mugla - I can't recall - was it you that was recommending we switch to Inkscape (open-source rescalable vector drawing) for the initial mapping ages ago? Because I still like that idea.
    Sup guys. I've got that covered. Just needs some readjustements and some way to define a smaller default viewport for the client viewer. Also needs some optimizations because inkscape produces horrible code.

  10. #1685
    Doc, Sxerks, str8g8? I'm still waiting your replies to that list, incase you already visited here since the post.

    Sounds good Morbus (and I think it was him who suggested it, Sola). How do the formats work in it? Can you do something out of a photoshop-file, or does it need further conversions we should count on in?

  11. #1686
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Colors: no problems

    Locatin changes:
    -"Moved S&R to the west. Made the cove" - dont know, but its still editable anyway
    -"Changed North quarter with New quarter." - Thought I did that, maybe not the version I uploaded, but there is no districts layer yet anyway
    -"moving Sealed Section eastwards" - wouldn't work, if the walls were still up it would be in the way for getting to audale.

    -"Removed a few (hopefully) unneeded layers" - most arn't needed but were there for reference.

    Zillameth did a very good job explaining the rotation issue. And I would point out that a vote of a half dozen people is quite pointless. And if you really like the compass so much I can go edit the maps again so the compass is dominate.

    As far as I'm concerned most of the locations are still up in the air, as clear explainations for their placement hasn't been nailed down, which also goes for dayport/eastport.

  12. #1687
    You're right, Sealed Section wouldn't work the way I tried. But the wall wasn't the issue, if you notice that the actual barricade goes a bit deeper in the map.

    Yes, I agree. We still have time to decide. I'm doing my best to leave everything open enough, so recursions can be made afterwards.

    I was wondering, if we should continue this fine-tuning on an irc-channel or so. We're taxing this thread with increased fervor, and will be circling around minor details for a while as I see it.
    The work might go faster as well, if we wouldn't have to wait for the replies so long. Naturally a fitting date would have to be set.

  13. #1688
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugla
    Doc, Sxerks, str8g8? I'm still waiting your replies to that list, incase you already visited here since the post.

    I don't have Photoshop...

  14. #1689
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: Yangon, Burma
    Quote Originally Posted by Sxerks View Post
    Zillameth did a very good job explaining the rotation issue. And I would point out that a vote of a half dozen people is quite pointless. And if you really like the compass so much I can go edit the maps again so the compass is dominate.
    For the record, again, I'd argue it's not the compass that's evidence for the non-rotation, but the Keeper map itself on its own terms -- apart from the compass -- suggests a purposeful distorting rotation for drafting reasons apparent on the face of the map (so Zillameth's post doesn't really address the right counter-argument). This is Keeper map evidence, not UI compass evidence (which is just supporting evidence).

    I agree that in-game material has more weight than UI material, but you shouldn't say that it's because of that that this debate is solved, and that's it, because of the drafting argument.

    Whichever solution you guys go with is kosher since there is support both ways. I just want to be sure that the opposing perspective is not misrepresented when one solution claims triumph over the other.

    You should at least add the point that you're also dismissing the possibility that the orientation is a drafting distortion a Keeper in this situation would likely make in just this way, as well as dismissing factors/reasons on the face of the map that support that fact (e.g., this is not a manual map but in-game produced under "real world" conditions, he doesn't have a compass, plus other buildings' orientations in relation to the hexagon edges & how building-filler is consistently treated suggest that buildings are purposefully tilted at the edges, etc)

    Anyway, that's the more proper counter-argument for the record, and Zillameth's post doesn't really cover it. If you go with the rotated solution, fine, but at least keep a footnote that you're taking the Keeper map quite literalist (like it were a manual map, not merely in-game made, or at least the "real world" limitations on this Keeper don't impress you) and you weren't impressed with the affirmative draft-distortion arguments either. (Also that you don't find the compass info as supporting evidence or feel like using the viability of this argument to make the contradicting evidence consistent), etc, which is the better argument to claim victory here (not merely in-game>UI alone, which I believe as well). And that not everybody was on board with these dismissals, even after accepting everything Zillameth said as gospel truth.

    I gather that those supporting the rotated solution believe these things, so I'll just let this post serve as the footnote and let things go on as they are; it's just one argument. It's so close, I'm happy to see this get out the door as well thought out as it already is.

  15. #1690
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Brown View Post

    I don't have Photoshop...
    Oh my...
    The latest version, packed with an edit log and a .jpeg for Doc's convenience.
    Take your time to read the log, as it should shed light on the reasons for my developement decisions.

    All in all, nothing there is taboo as of yet (well, mostly they are. Nudging can still be done within limited measures), so don't despair, if something doesn't please you. And don't fall into despair on the compass issue just yet. I've got a few methods to find a solution for it.

    Once we've brainstormed the last details, I'll edit the map for the artist into the form he deems necessary, and we can start to focus on the site (no? yes?).
    If you're interested in discussing this through in real-time, private message me here on the boards, and I'll send you the irc-address (if I can get it to work, and enough people turn up with a common date/time of day). Anyone interested can sign up. Even if you feel you'd be a spectator at first. We'll drag you into the conversation in the end.

  16. #1691
    Ah, to be at the cusp! Or is it the precipice?

    Heh, this is just so friggin' awesome, dudes!

    Let not the quibbles and dribbles smear the proverbial ink on the page! (There's a proverb like that?)

  17. #1692
    Registered: Aug 2002
    "dont have photoshop"
    Then download the GIMP:
    It will open and save photoshop files, all though it is not a easy to use.

    "Latest version"

    sealed section - there is no north wall. the water flows to the west in that area.
    assassins section - the light colored water is underground, quite a ways.

    shoalsgate section - that is a moat, not a canal.

    Truart estate - something I just thought of: the map compass was rotated from the original dromed direction, which makes me wonder if they meant the river in the back to be "the river" and the estate should be north of the city, where as if the river was E-W it might be naturally coming from the mountains to the east, just a thought.

    overlook mansion - the gray is the islands outline not the underground

    Sunken Citadel- is "sunken" under the ocean

    separating the underground parts from the abovegrounds parts - I started off only doing "above" and just added the "under" later, never expected to do seperate layers.

    T:ds maps seem to lack the lightgreen gateways - I didn't use them for the map exit location.

    I expect just about everything on the map, as well as the map itself, will have a footnote.
    Last edited by Sxerks; 15th Aug 2007 at 22:51. Reason: read .txt file

  18. #1693
    Sealed section; You're right about the wall. I drew the east wall mostly according to the mission's own limits, which seems to go along the Cathedral's side. Thus I used the same logic to add the north wall; seems the main outbreak is to the west from the Cathedral's gates.
    But the water flows to the west? That's almost troubling. We'll have to add a below River-level route for it then.

    Assassins; You're noting on how I connected the canals there into the light blue, right? Yes, what I was thinking, the water fell there quite a deal, but started above grounds where the Keeper seal was located. I just didn't draw the line over original maps yet.

    Shoalsgate; But moats get their water from the canalsystem too, no? There were other sewers there too, as I remember (which leads me to think, mechanists didn't replace the undeground waterways with pipes all that completely).

    Truart's; They just couldn't work with the compass, could they?

    Sunken/Overlook; Alright, thanks.

    On the underground parts; Yeah, I think the idea sprung not long ago, that we should have unhindered view of the belows. G. seems to venture there quite a bit, and there's usually interesting houses just above these caves too. I don't like to edit the original ones even this much, but couldn't think of another way to keep the two levels separate all around.

    T:ds exits; Yes, this was my idea. Previous games always marked gates and gateways with the lightgreen. If they would had been colored with the building colors they represented, tracking a road would had been impossible. Now we can easily see the streets and the walls that go across them.

  19. #1694
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugla
    The latest version, packed with an edit log and a .jpeg for Doc's convenience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sxerks
    Then download the GIMP:
    It will open and save photoshop files, all though it is not a easy to use.
    Hooray! People are paying attention to me!

    Alright, now that I can see what everyone's talking about, a few comments:

    The Undercover Issue
    The last time we reached such a stalemate (TDS' Docks' orienation) we made the most literal compromise possible, rotating the map halfway between the two suggestions. What say you to that now?

    Bafford's, Thieves' Guild, and Stonemarket
    I was actually quite pleased with my rearrangement of these three locales on my last map, and was curious what you all thought. As I mentioned in the map legend, this pushes Bafford's and Stonemarket closer together while also splitting the Thieves' Guild between multiple Warden territories.

    Framed and Bonehoard
    I don't think I've seen this brought up yet, but just what was the reasoning behind the relocation of these two missions? Bonehoard isn't so much relocated as it is brought closer (within?) the City, while Framed has switched districts (and to which? Auldale or Dayport?) entirely. Pourquoi?
    Classic Thief map: latest iteration and explanation.

  20. #1695
    Hey Doc!

    Maybe it's time to take Mugla's suggestion for a chat? Gmail's chat works pretty well as an alternative to the IRC approach.

    And're as red as a lobster! Sunburn? You know taffers shouldn't go out in the daylight!

  21. #1696
    Yes, waiting for guys to PM me their schedule/agreement in the IRC -issue. Currently it seems everyone's too busy to even know their schedules for this brainstormin' event.

    -I'm uncertain if people will like compromises (see, even the Docks got rotated back to N-S while you weren't looking). What I think we should do, is finally write down the mandatum for the priorities of the various evidence sources. This conversation would be best held on the IRC. With everyone agreeing to a single logical approach, the solutions will be agreed upon unanimously.
    -I think those changes are currently implemented. As to what I think about them, well... None of the reasons are of priority for me, but they are within their limits as far as I remember.
    -Bonehoard is supposed to get a "male-icon" around it. I didn't stretch the map to show anything beyond the City-limits, so locations just outside and further away aren't currently in their right places.
    Uncertain about Framed. Seems as if it was moved to fill a hole?

  22. #1697
    So, has there been any PM'ing or chatting, yet? Whassup?

  23. #1698
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    By the way, I tried to fill some of Doc's doc's missing filenames:
    The one concerning the Mage Tower's sewers...
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc's doc
    Lastly, the Mage Towers can be found just outside The City to the west. We know the general direction from the Talisman map, and its proximity from a note (filename?) in the mission, indicating that it’s connected to The City’s sewers.
    ...appears to be (m16b08exit.str). It says that the sewers are old, not cartographed and that The City is quite far away. I have not found any other notes among those of "mission 16".

    The sound file about the mountains...
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc's doc
    A spoken comment in Shipping (filename?) indicates mountains to the east, the only mention of them in the series. S&R (sg50202c.wav); says (at least in German) that he was able to watch the sunrise (which is in the east) and the mountains (which can only be in the east or north) and that this ugly metal block (i.e. Angelwatch) is casting a shadow over his house. That means Angelwatch is NOT to the north of his house (since the sun goes across the south) and – since it prevents him from seeing the sunrise – it must be east of his house, and so must the mountains.

    By the way...this one:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc's doc
    The only other map to provide any substantial information is the Talisman map from Dark Project’s Haunted Cathedral. On it, we can see another set of relationships between districts: New Market is shown to the southwest of Old Quarter [...]
    ...contradicted somehow herewego25. Has this been one of the changed things or does it work beecause the Old Quarter is stretched so far to the north?

  24. #1699
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Thank you, Beleg, I've updated the map legend with the filenames. As for the New Market/Old Quarter relationship, if I'm not mistaken that was one we were slightly fudging. While it's true that New Market is to the west of Old Quarter as a whole, it is also to the southwest of the northernmost section of Old Quarter, which would make the indicated relationship correct (to an extent).
    Classic Thief map: latest iteration and explanation.

  25. #1700
    Where we at?

    Among all the geographical questions the game raises but never defines, another one would be: Is New Market cut off, or divided by water to the extent it's a pain to get around? What kind of watery problem could exist that might make them glad for a drought? Is it like Venice? Bridge-building doesn't seem to be a problem for The City....

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