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Thread: Mapping out The City.

  1. #176
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: cesspool

    Garrett's apartment

    I don't want to be troublemaker here, the current City map looks very cool, but there is one thing which bothers me.

    I just have re-read all this thread and don't quite understand, why do you believe that Garrett's apartment is located in New Quarter in Thief2? Why do you belive Garrett has moved to new apartment in Thief2 at all?


    Garrett - South Quarter 'independent' thief. Denied cut three \
    times. Sent Quince and Jacow out to shorten him.
    The only explanation I have seen about why Garrett has moved is that the map in Ambush!/Courier looks certainly different from the map in Assassins. Yes it's different. But Garrett lives in South Quarter in TDP. Did we actually have any TDP South Quarter mission? How do you know the quarters looks different? It seems the 'Home Turf' on Assassins map is rather neighbourhood around Garrett's apartment in South Quarter, which includes part of DownTowne and southern part of South Quarter. The area in Assassins where you have to escape isn't located in the immidiately proximity to Garrett's apartment, it's just imaginable border of the 'Home Turf'. To get home Garrett needs to cross DownTowne in the first place.

    Grundbegriff:
    where multiple possibilities are available with little or no in-game support, I tend to prefer the simplest or most-supported interpretation, the one that requires the fewest assumptions or the most likely ones.
    I totally agreed with Grundbegriff here. The simpliest possibility in this case is to suppose that Garrett hasn't moved and still lives in his old apartment in South Quarter. The apartment in Ambush!/Courier is in the southern part of the map as it should to be for good correspondence with Assassins map. In this case Shalebridge could be located to the east or south-east from DownTowne.

    What do you think?

  2. #177
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2000
    Location: Gloucester, UK
    Just thought you'd all like to know that I've taken over the Thief World Map Project from Doc_Brown who unfortunately doesn't have time to run it anymore.

    The map I'm working on is going to be interactive - i.e. you can zoom in and out. I want to include a map of the City and so I enter this ongoing debate!

    Is Wille's map the current definitive map? I know all this is subject to change but I wondered if we are nearing a concensus of opinion - in other words a comfortable compromise that we are all happy with???

    What would be great is if all of you who have created a map re-posted the links here together with the date the map was created.

    BTW, if you want to catch up on the TWMP visit these threads:

    http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthrea...threadid=11157

    http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthrea...threadid=45219

    MaJiC
    MaJiC's Thief Resource Collection

    FMs in progress: Winter Harvest - 35%, Full Circle - 55% Dominion of the Dead - 5%

  3. #178
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Helsinki, Finland

    Well my map is a mixture of my own visions, GB's visions and Naug's visions of the city...

  4. #179
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2000
    Location: Brittyland!

    Re: Garrett's apartment

    Originally posted by 242
    apartment in South Quarter, which includes part of DownTowne and part of South Quarter. The area in Assassins where you have to escape isn't located in the immidiately proximity to Garrett's apartment, it's just imaginable border of the 'Home Turf'. To get home Garrett needs to cross DownTowne in the first place.
    its a dead end area. It can't be in the area and the Thief II building is a much different style.
    simpliest possibility in this case is to suppose that Garrett hasn't moved and still lives in his old apartment in South Quarter. The apartment in Ambush!/Courier is in the southern part of the map as it should to be for good correspondence with Assassins map.
    What do you think?
    its a highly different area design, there is nowhere where one could lead on to the other.
    Its easier to assume Garrett moved than that it leads on when we'd need to create a complex winding street design for it to fit together from stuff that isn't in either game.

  5. #180
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: cesspool
    its a dead end area.

    I assume it's not a dead end. If you think that if you couldn't pass through that red gate in the end of the alley it's necessarily a dead end then the entire map can be considered as a dead end, because you can't just go endlessly in any direction. I assume the red gate wasn't locked or in any case was passable for Garrett with all his skills.

    It can't be in the area and the Thief II building is a much different style.

    Indeed, the layout and architecture of Assassins and Ambush! levels are different.

    The area where Assassins ends is in DownTowne. Check Assassins map and you'll see. So I assume that Garrett does need to pass across a section of DownTowne to get to South Quarter and his apartment. You can't see Garrett's apartment and buildings which are very close to it in Assassins. What you can see however is just the border area of his rather large neighbourhood called "The Home Turf". What I try to describe here is that indeed the areas in Assassins and Ambush! are different, but it doesn't prove that a part of the Ambush! map can't be the same area where Garrett lived in times of The Dark Project, because in ASSN we can't see South Quarter and it's buildings.

    However, I agree that Garrett could change his apartment in T2 and his new apartment could be in New Quarter. But I tend to prefer the simplest interpretation.


    its a highly different area design, there is nowhere where one could lead on to the other.

    The quarters in the City can differ drastically. I can't see why area design in South Quarter (Ambush!) can't highly differ from DownTowne's one (Assassins) even though they are adjacent. Perhaps one was constracted in 50-100 years after another.

    Hope it makes any sense.


    ps: it would be just GREAT if T3 team included VERY DETAILED, and HUGE map in form of big poster if not in any T3 box then in special edition ones. It would really help newbies to sense a hugeness of the City and deepness of the game even before they start to play it and would very please veterans. After all it would be a good marketing trick even though it would cost couple of weeks of hard work of an good artist and a few additional aids who would thoroughly collect information from T1/T2/T3. I'm sure Randy is aware about we want the map, but it's unclearly how it will be implemented: either as an ingame map and/or (as I prefer) some sort of a poster.

  6. #181
    Originally posted by 242
    However, I agree that Garrett could change his apartment in T2 and his new apartment could be in New Quarter. But I tend to prefer the simplest interpretation.
    The idea that the area between the Lost City's entrance and the Red Door is immediately northwest of the area around Garrett's apartment in BUSH/COUR strains credulity. The transition in architectural styles is extremely abrupt. However, in addition to that problem, the change of scale is significant. Likewise, the engineering of the canals is radically different. Furthermore, all the BUSH/COUR transitional gates are of a type, and that type has nothing to do with the structure sporting the red door. Finally, the somewhat industrial, artisanal zoning of the area around Home Turf makes no sense relative to the zoning in the northwestern portion of the BUSH/COUR map.

    The simplest explanation -- the one that requires us to swallow the least amount of implausibility -- is that Garrett, notorious for his difficulties with rent, has relocated in order to stay one step ahead of the landlord.

  7. #182
    New Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Gloucester, UK

    ATTENTION!!

    MaJiC here,

    The Thief World Map Project website is up and running! Please go to the new thread HERE to continue and don't post to this thread.

    Thanks,

  8. #183
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: cesspool
    Bump.
    Our history taffers, and some deep analysis.
    Read and dread

  9. #184
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: House of Sand and Fog
    Quote Originally Posted by Grundbegriff
    The idea ... of ... BUSH/COUR strains credulity. The transition ... is extremely abrupt. ... in addition to that problem, the change of scale is significant. Likewise, ... BUSH/COUR ... are ... nothing. Finally, the ... industrial ... zoning ... makes no sense relative to the zoning in ... BUSH/COUR.

    The simplest explanation -- the one that requires us to swallow the least amount of implausibility -- is that ... {BUSH/COUR} notorious for ... difficulties with rent, has relocated in order to stay one step ahead of the ... {law}
    Man, I'm glad I didn't vote for Bush/Cour in '04! Those guys would've totally wrecked everything! Oh, damn, Bush/Cheney won, though... Not much better than the one-two Bush/Cour

    deadman.

  10. #185
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    ... whoa. Someone's practicing necromancy, and it ain't me.

    .j.

  11. #186
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge

    new map

    Well I've been working on a new map of the city, which I was planning on posting, but I can't probably because I'm only a New Member ...

    ... so does anyone know how I can get this thing up, it's only a 60k png after all. I was hoping on reigniting the whole debate ...

    straitgait

  12. #187
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Doesn't the map included in the TDS manual sort of destroy the whole point of this Map Project? Unless of course it is used as a foundation for a new map.
    Sad to see such a long-standing idea go to waste though.

  13. #188
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    StraightGate, use photobucket.com. You can insert images by their url, on the toolbar above posting (with the B I andU ).


    Darth, the one in the manual barely shows the centrum on one side of the river, while the map-project tries to map a whole 1/8 of a planet. There's plenty place to explain the Old Quarter dilemma or interlock the quarters correctly, not to mention the overall size of the City (thus anyone can then derive the history, economy and culture more deeply from the size of the populus we are dealing with).

  14. #189
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    what he said, the city map in the manual (and in game) only shows about a quarter of the city, and is very selective anyway (only showing those districts that are in Thief_DS) ... my new map tries to bring together all the various strands from all 3 games, as well as the stirling work done on the community maps ...

    and thanks mugla I'll try and get something up tomorrow

    cheers
    straitgait

  15. #190
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    new city map

    This is my new take on the city

    When I first played Thief_DS I was pleased to find a city map in there, but they didn’t really gel with the community maps. There were two explanations:

    1. DS departed from the canon of the first 2 instalments
    2. the community maps weren’t totally correct

    Personally, I believe the community did a sterling job on the city maps, based on the information available, but the fact is there is new information now, and I don’t think we can just dismiss Thief_DS as “non-canon”. So I wanted to find some kind of continuity amongst the maps. This assumes there is continuity of course. But I believe there is.

    “Foolish non-believers. You underestimate our powers of anal-retention. We've been working with the same map of The City for 3 games now. It was already there in 1997 when I joined The Dark Project.

    To be fair, I'm not sure how religiously everyone's been sticking to it over the years. (Mostly, I think, though.) And there has, of course, been a fair amount of deliberate misinformation in the dialog and text from T/T2. You can't trust everyone in the city. Sometimes they are either dumb or on their own agenda. So, between these 2 things, I can see how your map isn't perfect.

    Anyway, your map is pretty good, impressive, really, but it's off.”
    (From Randy Smith in one of the threads)

    There was enough ex-looking glass people working on Thief_DS to ensure that they would carry on using the map Randy mentions. On the other hand, he makes clear that not everything in the games can be trusted.

    So I used as primary evidence the visual maps used in all three games and rather than try and visualise all this stuff in my head, as you are forced to when reading through the excellent threads on the matter, I decided to take the actual maps themselves, from all three games, and overlay them in photoshop. I took the Thief_DS city map as the first point of reference, simply because it is the most overt manifestation yet of the overall design of the city, as intended by the developers.

    Second only to this is the keeper map from Thief_TDP. Now this map is very interesting as it formed the basis of all the community maps, and yet lacked cricial information – most importantly a compass star, and the ocean.

    What I found was that the keeper map does not line up with the T3 city map, until that is you rotate the keeper map approx 180 degrees. Basically what I’m saying is the keeper map (and consequently all community maps) are upside down.

    Also, I have purposefully avoided putting definitive boundaries around districts, ie lines on the map, because I believe this is more appropriate for a medieval-type city – typically districts run into one other with a kind of grey area between them. I think it was only later, with post codes (or zip codes) that cities were carved up so precisely.

    Everything else then flowed from this. There are however several other leaps of faith in this map, namely:

    Downtowne and Hightowne, which are used a lot in T1 and T2, but not so much in T3, I propose are meant to be kind of umbrella terms (like West End and East End in London) so that Downtowne is the generic term for the left bank, older, poorer districts of the city, and Hightowne is the generic term for the right bank, richer, new districts.

    Shalebridge also creates all kinds of problems in terms of layout. In the end, I decided use extrapolate the scanty evidence as follows: the note on the T2 new quarter map points to Shalebridge as north east of Newmarket. But on the other hand, Shalebridge is supposed to be a poor district, and kind of belongs on the left bank. Additionally, on the keeper map, there is suggested a confluence of several rivers into the main river; and finally the name its left, that suggests a kind of land bridge, or shallow part of the river, according to some dialogue, could almost be walked across when the tide was low. Putting all this together, I made Shalebridge an area around the confluence of the rivers, criss-crossed by many bridges, because the rivers are narrower there (as opposed to downriver, where the bridges would be less numerous and more prestigious).

    The road layout as depicted is a result of combining the main routes of the T3 city map with the layouts of more detailed city section maps from all 3 games. Obviously there is a great deal of leeway in the precise placement of these areas.

    Also, I don’t like where the city walls end up; they don’t seem to make much sense to me – they should in theory mark the boundaries of the old city, before some later expansion, but as depicted on the keeper map, they don’t really do this.

    Other problems include the relative placement of key features such as the abandoned section of the old quarter, we know it is in the Old Quarter, but there is not much else to go on, as well as the placement of other sites within the overall structure, which is the next stage, which will include the ability to start putting in street names, and so on.

    I guess the ultimate point of all this is that when the editors and toolset arrives, the community needs a good map of the city, so that it can have more continuity and consistency, much like the developers themselves, and as some have pointed out, possibly link up various sections of city in a meaningful way.

    Anyway, I would appreciate any and all feedback on this new layout, as well as any clues as to the specific placement of more detailed areas and sites within the city. Also, if anyone has a hi-res version of scumbles map, I would love to see it, as in the one I had I couldn’t read the text.

    Whew, long post!

  16. #191
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2004
    Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
    Nice work, awesome sleuthing!


  17. #192
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Finland
    Very impressive. Also very convincing, and your argumentation is logical and compelling. Great work!

  18. #193
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Great work there, str8g8. I'll need a little time to go over your analysis with a fine tooth comb to confirm its quality, but for the time being good job nonetheless.

  19. #194
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    cheers guys, I appreciate the support, though I'm sure there's loads of stuff I haven't taken into account.

    But what I hope is that through this process the community map project will get to the point where we can make it quasi-official, and that any FM work can be located precisely and consistently within the overall city.

    An official community map would also be necessary if we want to fill in the gaps, and make the city streets free-roaming (via load zones). You could divide the map up into sectors and assign them on a first come, first serve basis (I would like to see the community sectors 2 or 3 times the size of T3 areas - with less detail, and PC-only this shouldn't be a problem). I envisage maybe 100 or so would be enough... these could then provide load zones to any other FMs.

    cheers
    straitgait

  20. #195
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Can't remember now what the talk was, but in Ramirez' room there's a book that says Garrett lives in South Quarter.

    So here comes a theory(*wild* one! ) ; what if Garrett has many apartments rent throughout the city? Then the rent would be more to his level of thieving (why he is complaining about it so much), and would give that extra security I would go in such a job.

    Nevermind. I'll find my own way out.

  21. #196
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: Moscow
    Great map, the more I look at it, the more I understand that it's great. str8g8, what if you go on and continue exploring the resources in order to make the map more precise?

    There's only one thing that makes me confused - the scale. If we look at the place on your map where Assassins take place, we see that this small part of the City actually much bigger that the whole Dayport, for example, according to your map. This is definately incorrect.

    What I found was that the keeper map does not line up with the T3 city map, until that is you rotate the keeper map approx 180 degrees. Basically what I’m saying is the keeper map (and consequently all community maps) are upside down.
    Yes, but Assassins actually takes place in the same area that is shown in the Keepers map, but the compass there shows us that the layout of the Keeper's map is correct, and North there is to the up...

    And about Shalebridge - how can it be located so far from Old Quarter if Shalebridge Cradle in Thief 3 located actually IN Old Quarter?..
    Last edited by d'Spair; 19th Dec 2004 at 17:05.
    I interview Irrational

  22. #197
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2002
    In T2 we learn that Garrett has a fence in Shalebridge, I doubt it´s in the Old Quarter...

  23. #198
    The Architect
    Registered: Dec 1998
    Location: Lyon
    Great new map! It's nice to see someone try to make the DS stuff coexist with the old stuff.

    I included the DS stuff in the city map made for cosas, creating two 'old quarters' ... I belive in DS they say South Quarter is the oldest district... so I created what I called "Old South Quarter" and was done with it.

  24. #199
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Thanks for the feedback, it's observations like this that forces you to think more closely about these things.

    Can't remember now what the talk was, but in Ramirez' room there's a book that says Garrett lives in South Quarter.
    He lives in SQ in DS as well, and what's more I can accurately pinpoint his house on the new map, as the streets from DS SQ are incorporated in the road network.

    Great map, the more I look at it, the more I understand that it's great. str8g8, what if you go on and continue exploring the resources in order to make the map more precise?
    Thanks! And that's exactly what I intend to do, except there isn't a great deal more resources to go on. I want to get the overall structure right before I put in every alley.

    Yes, but Assassins actually takes place in the same area that is shown in the Keepers map, but the compass there shows us that the layout of the Keeper's map is correct, and North there is to the up...
    Yes this is a problem. I haven't actually played Assassins lately to verify this. (Need to get hold of some saves). If the compass in the actual mission shows that new market is south west and old quarter is north east, as I'm fairly sure it does, then it messes everything up.

    However, I really don't like the assassins map very much. It doesn't line up with the keeper map in many other ways (like the scale, as you point out, but also the river, which isn't big enough either, and also the layout of the streets, which bare no relation to the keeper map). In fact, the only thing that connects the two in any way is the city wall layout.

    It is possible to put this down to the limitations and necessities of level design (which was the main concern of making the game, lets not forget, consistency with the map would have been a secondary consideration) and don't forget Randy's statement about misleading info. It is annoying, because these are two key pieces of evidence (assassin map and keeper map) that don't agree with each other (and they're both from Thief I as well, never mind later maps). But I'm prepared to overlook the discrepancies in the assassin map because turning the keeper map upside down solves so many other problems. Imagine a certain flow of events; designing and building a level in dromed, and then deciding well maybe Ramirez should be based in Hightowne, and then trying to make it fit in with the keeper map, and then realising you would need to flip your entire level so the compass rose is pointing the rigght way ... well, I don't know about Dromed, but I imagine this would be a pretty nasty job. I'd be tempted to just leave it, after all, who's going to worry, apart from a few anal-retentive geeks and there's nothing in the keeper map to openly contradict it, because as I mentioned, a compass rose and the ocean are conspicuously absent.

    And about Shalebridge - how can it be located so far from Old Quarter if Shalebridge Cradle in Thief 3 located actually IN Old Quarter?..
    Yes, that's a good point. The Shalebridge Cradle is not in Shalebridge, it's in Old Quarter, and on my map it's not even that close. Proximity wouldn't be the only explanation of the name though, again the necessities of game design could - maybe the designers were originally going to put in a Shalebridge city section which got cut, and so the Asylum level got moved to OQ, but they didn't want to change the name (it's a good name after all, Old Quarter Cradle is rubblish). Maybe - and this maintains continuity - the Cradle borders a Shalebridge Road, which runs up the side of the river from OQ or the Docks to Shalebridge?

    I included the DS stuff in the city map made for cosas, creating two 'old quarters' ... I belive in DS they say South Quarter is the oldest district... so I created what I called "Old South Quarter" and was done with it.
    I considerd the possibility for a while of two old quarters, or rather the old quarter bring split across both banks. Is there anywhere I can see this map? Is it on the site?

    cheers
    straitgait

  25. #200
    BANNED
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: cerebral vortex of the mind
    Don't know if it hass been asked, but what happenend to all the zombies that used to occupy the old quarter?

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