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Thread: Mapping out The City.

  1. #201
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    The zombies didn't occupy all of Old Quarter, just a section of it that was walled up. AKAIK the walled section is still there in DS so I placed it on my map, though I wasn't too sure fo the position, as there is not much to go on. Is there any other information about the location of the walled section?

    cheers
    straitgait

  2. #202
    BANNED
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: cerebral vortex of the mind
    I thought it might have been the same section, because I could have sworn that somewhere I read the Hammerites had restored that decrepit old cathedral where the eye was kept in T: DP.

  3. #203
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Actually, that would be the 'Restored Cathedral' FM's... the Fort in the OQ is not the same thing at all. (Personally, I thought that the Fort acted as a buffer between the inhabited OQ and the 'deadzone' inside the walls...)

    .j.

  4. #204
    He lives in SQ in DS as well, and what's more I can accurately pinpoint his house on the new map, as the streets from DS SQ are incorporated in the road network.
    ...But in Stone market/New market/New quarter in T2... (I got confused... or baffled, rather... )



    Maybe - and this maintains continuity - the Cradle borders a Shalebridge Road, which runs up the side of the river from OQ or the Docks to Shalebridge?
    A very good point; in olden times (and possibly in the future), villages weren't necessarily that far away from eachother, and had adjoining roads in between named after the lesser village; later the civilization of the larger engulfed the poorer ones with their slums.
    Thus there's also an Auldale -street in the Walled of section: a road that runs through Aul-dale/ol' dale/...old ale...

  5. #205
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    While I continue to cross-reference and all that jazz, let me bounce a question off you, str8g8. Why is it that you've given Dayport, yet no other quarter, a specific North and South designation? I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with it, I'm just curious as to the reasoning behind the decision.

    And let me just say that, so far at least, your map grows more impressive as I examine it.

  6. #206
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Thus there's also an Auldale -street in the Walled of section: a road that runs through Aul-dale/ol' dale/...old ale...
    Exactly, and hopefully, I can extrapolate this road as continuing outside the walled section and crossing the river (at Auldale Bridge, natch).

    ...But in Stone market/New market/New quarter in T2... (I got confused... or baffled, rather... )
    Welcome to the club. My head hurts. My photoshop file of layered up maps is over 200mb.

    Why is it that you've given Dayport, yet no other quarter, a specific North and South designation?
    North Dayport District and South Dayport District are marked on the Thieve's Highway map in T2 ... it's not particularly necessary, but it kind of led me to arrange Dayport more vertically, rather than spreading out along the coast. Also I like the idea of the port activity carrying on up the mouth of the river, rather than just sticking to the coast, rather like the way London was a major port, even though it is quite a way inland. Plus there is evidence in the cutscenes of fairly large boats navigating up the river.

    And let me just say that, so far at least, your map grows more impressive as I examine it.
    Thanks! And I'm looking forward to your comments, though I'm going to be offline for a week or two over Christmas.

    cheers
    straitgait
    Last edited by str8g8; 22nd Dec 2004 at 04:43.

  7. #207
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    (Personally, I thought that the Fort acted as a buffer between the inhabited OQ and the 'deadzone' inside the walls...)
    You're talking about Fort Ironwood? I really like that idea. And they seem to have a bit of an undead problem don't they ... ?

    I also considered the city wall sections as marked on the keeper map ... well they seem to have towers or forts dotted along them ... so maybe Fort Ironwood is also linked into the underlying fortifications of the city.

    hmmm
    straitgait

  8. #208
    I thought that problem was only recent, relating to the pagan-necromancer infestation they had downstairs.

    Hmmm. Yes, if you're confused too, then it must be there's cross-referencing in the canon materail?
    Thus Stonemarket is only the market plaza? etc. You know the drill by now.

  9. #209
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    I thought that problem was only recent, relating to the pagan-necromancer infestation they had downstairs.
    You're right of course, there is no direct link with the catastrophe, but I think it's still a good way of placing Fort Ironwood, and also the walled section (because there isn't any other evidence to situate it within the city) Perhaps the areas around the walled section are more prone to undead manifestation.

    Also does anyone have a version of scumbles map where the text is legible? He seems to have done quite a lot of work towards the placement of specific sites and missions which I'd like to look at in more detail.

    cheers
    straitgait

  10. #210
    Our map is full of stuff from CoSaS, a bit from CL and even a few personal district names I threw in there for fun, it's not meant to try to say "this is what I think The City looks" but rather "This is how it looks in the "Circle of Stone and Shadow / Correspondence of Thieves / Calendra's Legacy" fiction.

    The map will be featured in the briefing for the next mission.

  11. #211
    Moderator
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Everywhere
    T2X is gonna screw this whole thing up soooooo bad. I apologize in advance.

  12. #212
    Nah, screw what up? They're all just fanworks, no big deal. While desinging our map, we looked at other people's maps, and either borrowed ideas, or ignored them.

    I look forward to seeing your T2X maps, fett...

  13. #213
    seeing them....ON THE BONFIRE

  14. #214
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by str8g8
    You're right of course, there is no direct link with the catastrophe, but I think it's still a good way of placing Fort Ironwood, and also the walled section (because there isn't any other evidence to situate it within the city) Perhaps the areas around the walled section are more prone to undead manifestation.
    Don't forget that some of the game quotes suggest the catacombs under the Fort were built because of past plague epidemics, which seem to be seperate incidents from the Old Quarter catastrophe... suggests that Fort Ironwood was built before or after the event, as the church is likely to have been built on top of (and at the same time as) the catacombs, not as a Walled Section fortification.
    Last edited by Shadow Play; 24th Dec 2004 at 17:38.

  15. #215
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Alright, after extensive research into the matter I've slapped together a crappy image--as seems to be my thing--with my suggestions for changes to your map, str8g8te. After several days (which sucked) of combing through The Complete Thief Index, the game cinematics, and past mapping threads, what I have here is my estimation of how most of the layout has to work. Admittedly, there are sources I did not get to (some missing files from the Index, a complete scouring of TDS, all of the audio files), but I feel I've gathered enough information to make a decent stab at it.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...us/Crapmap.jpg

    It's quite different from most of what we've seen before, in large part due to the fact that I chose not to rotate one of the official maps, as most others have done. But let me defend in depth the changes I have made, and then we can see whether or not it will work out. My apologies in advance, as the only real way I can see of explaining this is a somewhat rambling narrative. In my defense, I should have gone to sleep several hours ago.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As we learned from the fountain plaque in TDS, the City was originally built in South Quarter. With this in mind, I gave South Quarter a somewhat circular shape, fitting for a city just starting out and needing to defend itself. Once settled and ready to expand, it's likely that the first citizens built Southeast towards both the river and the ocean, creating the Wayside Docks. An economic boon, this caused the City to grow exponentially, meritting the creation of a new quarter. For the sake of argument, let us call this new quarter East Quarter for the time being.

    East Quarter grew out to both the north and the east, and I've indicated it on the map with a red border. Taking a cue from your map, str8g8te, but shrinking the scale, this new quarter was divided into three districts: Downtowne, its South end made up by Stonemarket, a middle section made up mostly of homes and businesses, and Hightowne, the nicest district, most notably home to the upscale counterpart of Stonemarket, New Market. The placement of each of these was made in regard to the Assassin's map and Keeper's map from TDP.

    Doing very well for itself, the City decided to build itself a new port to improve upon the old Docks section. As that section was left to fall by the wayside, this is where the name by which it is commonly known today came from (though it is still referred to as simply the Docks occasionally). The new coastal district was called Dayport (in contrast to the somewhat shady Docks), and expanded inland much more than its counterpart. The South side, the actual port, was known as South Dayport, while the northern, more commercialized half was known as North Dayport. While most every other map puts Dayport on the East bank, I made the call to pull it West due to Garrett's comment in TDS that South Quarter was the center of town. As you can see on my example map, the City is much more balanced around South Quarter now as a result.

    The City continued to grow, and so new districts sprang up. North Quarter was created to deal with all the new residents and businesses, while Auldale was crafted across the river for the City's wealthiest residents. In time, Auldale would get its own port, Eastport, so that the nobility could directly import and export goods themselves. Though smaller than Dayport, Eastport is kept in the best shape of the three seaside districts. In recent years, in a continued effort to deal with the growing number of citizens, New Quarter was created on the western edge of town. Prior to this, however, there were two other notable district changes.

    The first was the creation of Shalebridge. Again taking a cue from str8g8te, I chose to place Shalebridge on neither the East or West bank, but instead place it in between. Both the nobility in Auldale and the commoners in North Quarter wanted this land--the former for vacationing, the latter to move to a less crowded area--and so they each settled on one of the two land masses therein, sharing the district in name only. Being the most Northeastern of districts, this placement works with the TMA Ambush map regardless of whether Garrett's new apartment was in North or New Quarter. Following its creation, a major road was named after this district, running North/South down the West bank of the river all the way to Wayside (hence the Cradle's name).

    The other important district change came about with the catastrophe in what would become known as the Old Quarter. After the Barricades were erected in the middle section to halt the undead, the immediate surroundings fell into decline and were renamed. While older sections of town do exist, those are continually rebuilt over time. This holds true for both Hightowne and Downtowne, which became, in essence, districts of their own. The only exception to this is the small stretch South of Stonemarket, a sort of no man's land that none of the surrounding districts has absorbed. Outside of a Hammerite fortress containing a monument to the disaster victims, it remains much as it was and is still referred to as part of the Old Quarter despite not technically being connected to it. This explains the discrepency in the official TDS map in, quite frankly, the only way I see it working.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So how'd I do? I'll be glad to answer any questions and further justify my decisions. The map project depends on cooperation, after all. Sooner or later, we're bound to find a map layout that works to our satisfaction...

  16. #216
    Ya, nice.

    Pro
    -The map to Sealed Section was only 50 years old, and G. seemed to add the walls of the sealed section afterwards: check briefing, found on an attic (for those who think the above history bit should be older).

    Con
    -The naming of the districts? South quarter should had gained it's name along the same time as NQ? Your solution?
    -Wayside had the First Landing Site; also fishing is an important thing to any city of small size; how about adding it to SQ in the beginning, separated later as it became clearly another part of town (also SQ could be renamed thanks to this? Not to mention other name confusions can be used to advantage)


    Now I said this once, I've seen this said by someone else, and I'll say it once more: to list the pure facts first into one place, without any added speculations, the work could be done the fastest and with least erroneous paths taken.
    Naturally this one would seem to work on a first glance, so all you would need to do next is add the roads with str8g8t, and make more definitive lines.
    Let's wait his word.

  17. #217
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Ah, nothing like a good night's sleep to restore one to full mental capacity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugla
    South quarter should had gained it's name along the same time as NQ? Your solution?
    Not necessarily. If, as I've suggested, the first real addition was built mostly to the east and hence referred to as such, it would make sense to start referencing the original district in such a manner as well. If their design allowed additional expansions to the North and West but not to the South, it would make sense to call the original district South Quarter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugla
    how about adding [Wayside] to SQ in the beginning, separated later as it became clearly another part of town
    A valid point, but we must remember that the first construction was done in South Quarter. If the first citizens decided to start building so far inland, it seems likely that they'd first concern themselves with creating a safe, isolated haven, before then building down to the sea. Perhaps there were geographic reasons, a clearing there or natural formations providing some protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugla
    to list the pure facts first into one place, without any added speculations, the work could be done the fastest and with least erroneous paths taken.
    I agree. Let's begin, shall we?
    Last edited by Doc_Brown; 13th Jan 2005 at 00:37.

  18. #218
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Concrete Evidence: Confirmed Districts
    From one of the notes in Assassins (m5dossier), we are told the following:

    Raputo
    Warden of North Quarter, Shalebridge, Newmarket, New Quarter.

    Webster
    Warden of Docks, Eastport, Dayport.


    This gives us seven confirmed districts. Note that in Shipping...and Receiving another note confirms that Docks are actually fully known as Wayside Docks:

    Ship From: Gilver Exporting Co
    1369 Winston Avenue Bay#7933
    Wayside Dock District


    Therefore we have:
    North Quarter
    Shalebridge
    New Quarter
    New Market
    Wayside Docks
    Eastport
    Dayport

    Strongly Supported Conjecture: District Relationships
    If these two Wardens control said districts, the logical assumption is that they are connected to one another. All of Webster's are located on the coast, and all of Raputo's link up as well.

    Concrete Evidence: Further Districts
    Garrett's map in Assassins (http://thief.webz.cz/T1/html/maps/Miss5-001.jpg) shows us a few more districts: Hightowne and Downtowne. Since these are listed on his map in the same manner as the confirmed New Market and Old Quarter, we can tell they are considered districts as well.

    Furthermore, Garrett also lists his home turf on the map. Yet another Assassins note (M5todo) shows us that Garrett's home turf is South Quarter:

    Garrett - South Quarter 'independent' thief.

    Lastly, the official TDS map (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...TDStextmap.jpg) reveals two final districts: Auldale and Stonemarket.

    So, that brings our district count up to twelve:
    North Quarter
    Shalebridge
    New Quarter
    New Market
    Wayside Docks
    Eastport
    Dayport
    Hightowne
    Downtowne
    South Quarter
    Stonemarket
    Auldale

    Mildly Supported Conjecture: Sub-Districts
    If we look at the two aforementioned maps, we see an overlap issue that requires resolving. Garrett's Assassins map shows us that Downtowne is located right about where Stonemarket is shown on the official TDS map. These are not, however, mutually exclusive.

    The terms Hightowne and Downtowne imply sections of districts, at least at one point in time. Furthermore, there is a logical connection between the upscale side of town (High) and the commoner's side (Down) having a market as a major section thereof.

    Note that ****towne and ****market are not interchangeable terms. The Assassins map lists both Hightowne and New Market separately. Assuming the same holds true for Downtowne and Stonemarket would be a safe guess, so the markets are major sections of what are themselves district sections of what was once a larger, true district.

    Concrete Evidence: District Locations
    Using the maps and information we have compiled thusfar, we can determine most of the City's layout:

    Wayside Docks are located on the coast at the West bank of a major river.
    South Quarter is North/Northwest of Wayside.
    Downtowne, and with it Stonemarket, is on the West bank between Wayside and South Quarter.
    Hightowne, together with New Market, is located North/Northwest of South Quarter.
    Auldale is located on the East bank of the river, in the very least across from South Quarter.
    Old Quarter is to the Northeast of South Quarter, between Hightowne/New Market and Downtowne/Stonemarket. Most likely, it runs right to the river's edge.

    Strongly Supported Conjecture: Eastport's Location
    This one's simple. Eastport was given its name for a reason, so it most likely must fall on the eastern side of the river. It is either located below Auldale, or to its east.

    Mildly Supported Conjecture: Location of the Last Four Districts
    Dayport, New Quarter, North Quarter, and Shalebridge are factually unknown as regards their placement in the City, but we are capable of making a best guess. So let's work through this:

    In Ambush, the map Garrett uses (http://thief.webz.cz/T2/html/maps/miss5-002.jpg) places Shalebridge to the Northeast. We don't know for a fact what point of reference is being used, but consider this detail part of a greater whole. We also know from its name that North Quarter must fall more North of South Quarter, and the impression we get from the master guest list in Life of the Party (M11b02), Bandly Rofthoffer -- Declined (on holiday in Shalebridge), is that Shalebridge and Dayport are far from one another.

    Lastly, thanks to the conversation at Bafford's manor (paraphrased: "I've never seen the river so low. You can almost walk across at Shalebridge." "Wouldn't New Market love that."), the implication we gather is that Shalebridge and New Market are located near if not adjacent to one another, and that Shalebridge is on the other side of the river. We should also note that Shalebridge is mentioned both as a vacation spot for nobles and a somewhat seemly area that the nobility in Hightowne/New Market would look down upon.

    Basing our placements off of this information, we start by putting Shalebridge in the Northeast on two landmasses in the river, one for commoners (and hence nearest to New Market) and one for nobility (nearest the rich district, Auldale). Dayport, by name, must be on the coast, so let's place it West of Wayside. This, you should note, is as far from Shalebridge as we can possibly get. North Quarter is placed North of Old Quarter, while New Quarter is set to the East of South Quarter.

    In doing this, we not only place the two likeliest locations for Garrett's home in T2 Southwest of Shalebridge, but effectively link up Shalebridge, North Quarter, New Quarter, and New Market as hinted by Rapone's territories. We also center the entire City as best we can around South Quarter, which is referred to in TDS as "the center of the City." Lastly, note the symmetry created: South Quarter opposite North Quarter, New Quarter opposite Old Quarter.

    Mildly Supported Conjecture: The Old Quarter Discrepency
    All we are left with now is the issue of TDS indication of the Old Quarter being a small section crammed between South Quarter, Wayside, and Stonemarket. First let's take a minute and refute the other possible explanations:

    Explanation #1: It is the same Old Quarter from previous games.
    Counter: From what we explored of the Old Quarter in The Haunted Cathedral, we know the Old Quarter is larger than what TDS portrays.
    Explanation #2: It's the same, but has since been cleaned up and absorbed into other districts.
    Counter: Its placement in TDS is contrary to its placement in the Assassins map.
    Explanation #3: It's a different Old Quarter.
    Counter: We've seen no evidence of other Old Quarters, no does it seem likely for the Hammers to make a monument to the Old Quarter disaster in a section of town that coincidentally has the same name.

    My solution draws on the previous hypothesis that Hightowne and Downtowne are designated areas of a larger district. My supposition is that following the disaster, these two influential areas were able to survive the immediate destruction and subsequent decay and essentially became districts of their own. With that in mind, the original, fully intact quarter would have curled around South Quarter from North to East. If a small area of the Old Quarter lay beyond the rejuvenated influence of the market sections, it is possible for it to have fallen into the same state of disrepair as those surrounding the Barricades. It is therefore possible for this section to continue to share the name of the former district, since renamed Old Quarter.
    Last edited by Doc_Brown; 13th Jan 2005 at 00:42.

  19. #219
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    Doc_Brown

    I have loooked over your new map, and I can see we are definately on the same wavelength here, which is obviously a good thing. However I do have some issues with it, which I'll outlines below.

    But Mugla is right that we have to set out the facts, and you have already done a great job of putting all this in one place in your subsequent post, and I completely agree with the way you have differentiated between facts and conjecture, as a lot of this debate tends to get mired in mixing up the two. This is progress.

    But for me the prime evidence is the 2 best official maps of the city. The first is the keeper map from Thief Gold:



    The second is the new ThiefDS city map:



    And it seems to me that the first task here is reconciling these two. This is the crux of it: The keeper map shows the Old Quarter to the northeast, on the right bank of the river, while the DS city map shows the Old Quarter southwest and on the left bank of the river. We need to resolve this before we can move on. We have each of us come up with 2 solutions to this problem:

    1. Your solution is to situate the entire keeper map entirely within the left bank, and creating 2 Old Quarters, or a split Old Quarter. But, and this is my big problem with your layout, the keeper map clearly shows the River bisecting the city, between Hightowne and NewMarket on the left, and Old Quarter and Downtowne on the right. On your layout you have completely moved the river!

    2. My solution is to rotate the keeper map approx 180 degrees, so that the Old Quarter lines up with the T3 city map. Note that there is no compass rose or sea on the keeper map to orientate it (possibly a bit of intentional misinformation on the part of the devs?, and also in keeping with the keepers, who are a secretive bunch and like their riddles and obfuscation).

    By the way, you say that
    I chose not to rotate one of the official maps, as most others have done
    whereas I don't think any of the older community maps rotate anything (at least not intentionally) I think my map was the first to do this, as a reaction to the new T3 city map.

    Anyway, I think my solution is simpler and more elegant (well, I would, wouldn't I ). It creates a more rational city layout.

    Once we settle this, we can then move on to the placement of New Quarter, Shalebridge and so on.

    I'll wait for your response.
    cheers
    str8g8

    new city map

  20. #220
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: Moscow
    I can't understand why do you think that the river in the Keeper's map is the same river as in the TDS map. In TDS map, the river is huge, and in the Keeper's map, the river is very small. I believe that the river in the Keeper's map is just a stream that joins the main big river somewhere.

    And, anyway, the Keeper's map shows us the place where Assassins take place. And in Assassins, we clearly have compass that shows us that the layout of the Grotto map is correct (I already said about this).
    I interview Irrational

  21. #221
    Surely the Talisman map is on a larger scale? So the river would indeed look smaller.
    Stoked with fuel,
    We do the Builder's work.

  22. #222
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    And, anyway, the Keeper's map shows us the place where Assassins take place. And in Assassins, we clearly have compass that shows us that the layout of the Grotto map is correct (I already said about this).
    I don't think it's quite that clear cut. I accept that it is the drawback to the theory, but as I already said, the Assassin's map doesn't fit with the keeper/grotto map in other ways, ie the scale is way off and the street plans don't match at all. I won't go into it again, but due to the necesseties of game design, the assassins map just isn't as good evidence as the keeper/grotto map.

    The River on the keeper/grotto map doesn't HAVE to be THE River, but it certainly looks pretty major (according to the scale of that map), so are we saying there are now two major rivers running through the city? So now we have two Old Quarters and two Rivers. It's messy. Why don't we have two cities and have done? I can't understand your reluctance to even entertain a simpler solution, which I have put forward.

    On the other hand, if this is the feeling of the community, then I will accept it, in the interests of creating a concensus, and moving on.

  23. #223
    I think your map is the most correct str8g8. It makes the most sense to me.
    Stoked with fuel,
    We do the Builder's work.

  24. #224
    Yes, excactly as I meant (first the pure facts, speculations added to the side).
    I'm so glad there is atleast someone not too lazy to start this thing.


    I'd say d'Spair's right; the final scene in T3/the map itself suggests (considering the width of the bridge compared to it's length) that the main river is bigger than anything we have seen in any mission, or the above maps.
    Now without thinking this through, could it be possible to rotate the Keeper -map only, say, 90 degrees? There are many canals going all around the City (as seen in Ambush!)
    I know this brings us forgetting the compass-issue in Assassins, d'Spair, but if we have to go to changing canon-material, then this would seem the smallest thing that would mess things the least, no? First we naturally have to consider other possibilities... And that I leave to you, as you seem to be mired in this deeper than I am.


    Oh, and the one small thing;
    Briefing to The Haunted Cathedral:
    "...that was deserted some years ago, after some kind of catastrophe..."
    "...Maps on the area are easy to find in attics and old trunks. But like all of them, the one I've got is over 50 years old..."
    The wall has been added over the map, possibly by Garrett himself. So if you're going to make Downtowne and Hightowne sections that were renamed after the sealing, there should'nt be any material suggesting them being older than 50.
    Last edited by Mugla; 13th Jan 2005 at 08:48.

  25. #225
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Shalebridge
    I think your map is the most correct str8g8. It makes the most sense to me.
    Thanks for the vote of confidence. Maybe we need a poll at some point...

    I'd say d'Spair's right; the final scene in T3/the map itself suggests (considering the width of the bridge compared to it's length) that the main river is bigger than anything we have seen in any mission, or the above maps.
    I aggree its bigger than previously imagined, but then the whole of ThiefDS is a kind of reimagining of the City ... it doesn't mean it that it isn't intended to be the same River. You have to allow the devs some freedom to interpret the material in TheifDS ... they wouldn't do some cool cutscene, and then say "oh no we'll have to change it cos it looks a bit bigger than the keeper/grotto map back in the dark project!" Only people like us with no life notice or care about such things

    Now without thinking this through, could it be possible to rotate the Keeper -map only, say, 90 degrees? There are many canals going all around the City (as seen in Ambush!)
    But what would be the point of this? Making the keeper river less parrallel or something? If you're willing to rotate it 90 degrees then why not 180? Though I accept your attempt at a compromise, this seems the worst of both worlds, and I would rather just accept that the keeper/grotto river isn't The River (though I'm not going to just yet) ...

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