Pre + cede vs. Pre + de + cede. Cede is the Big Friggin' River, and de- is an anabranch of language, involving a person in an official position.
I don't have time now to check everything against Doc's documentation, but just this little note:
* By "founding" I mean the slow building process, I'm just lazy right now.
** Why on earth is it "to precede" but "predecessor"?
Pre + cede vs. Pre + de + cede. Cede is the Big Friggin' River, and de- is an anabranch of language, involving a person in an official position.
The New Quarter like you say is basically the East side of the river, with the North Quarter being its northern area. But the City is divided into four grand quarters like you're saying -- Old, South, New, and North -- with the other areas filling in as sub-districts.
Thanks for the comments.
Nice reasoning Iceblade. As a side note as to why the eastern side wouldn't be occupied, we can add several more or less convincing details to that.
-The Kurshok citadel and Lost city are on the west side: hence the city has kept building on that side for a longer time.
-The canals could had been tributaries or the main branch of the River at some point.
-The globe map suggests that towards west there is a sea, and mainland follows towards east. The east could be forested, and thus pagan territory. Thus, a river would make a natural barrier against the beasts. As the power of hammerites waxes, they are able to move onto the other side of the river. Along with the mechanists, the east side seems to be mostly industrial (and mercantile) in layout.
These aren't too convincing as per se, but this is fun. ^^
It always took some time for cities to sprawl over a river (example1, example2)
Additionally I don't think that the eastern part of the city is much more industrial than the west (remember auldale?). The idea of splitting cities into residential and industrial zones is from the 1930s and before that factories and houses were build near to each other.
The Hand Mages came from the east and continue to have caravans from the east supplying them.
Gervaisius talks of a hunting excursion in the wilderness to the north compared to a previous hunt to the west.
The Pagan Sapling, Governor Horridge, and the Pirates Davidson and Carr involve an overseas shipping route to another part of The City.
The east side of Truart's Estate is lined with forest, and it's implied the pagans involved in his assassination plot came through there.
There's some good amount of forest around the Rumfords' Estate.
The globe is seen in the briefing for Casing the Joint, on Gervaisius's desk:
We don't know. We can only guess from every little bit of data we are shown, from architecture and textures used to build the maps, texts, quotes, skyboxes, the compass (when it isn't known to be incorrect). And with future titles and even our rich history of FMs, room for expansion is nice, and this map was meant for fan projects.
Great Britain, London, Gorinchem, and lots of Medieval European populations were the general starting point for The City, and given the weather, as well as the way the one wedge of the globe is lit and facing the viewer, the approximate analogous latitudes and rough rough resemblance to some real world coastlines, with the City having Ocean to the south, I favor this chunk of land (in red on the left):
Some past guesstimates had put it nearby, but it doesn't quite work in my mind (ignore the labels, except for The City, and most of the forests):
here, was chosen in part because it evenly distributed the missions across the City. If we were to go with your suggestion, there would be an incredibly dense concentration of missions in the Southeast corner of South Quarter, while at the same time leaving much of the rest of the City lacking any official definition whatsoever.
On a somewhat related note, I cannot seem to access the legend I uploaded to Google Docs long ago despite the fact that it's my Google account (which I can still access otherwise). For the time being, I'm going to double-post here in just a moment and paste said legend so everyone still has access to it.
Last edited by Doc_Brown; 19th Jul 2013 at 01:37.
The Mapping Project
Before we get to the map’s inner workings, it is important to note the rules that governed its development. At all times, we’ve stuck to canon as closely as possible. Only when canon failed to provide enough information—or, in a few rare instances, contradicted itself—was speculation permitted. Even then, such speculation was strictly limited the simplest, most common sense solutions to our problems. Only under these limitations can such a project be accepted as canonical.
The main puzzle pieces we have to deal with are the districts themselves. Therefore, before going any further we must be clear on just what we can accept as “official” districts. A note in one of Dark Project’s missions (Assassins, m5dossier) lists territories for The City’s crime lords, the Wardens. This list gives us:
- North Quarter
- New Quarter
- New Market
To clarify, in a Metal Age mission (Shipping… and Receiving) there is a note (M02slbl1) that specifically mentions Wayside Dock District. Though conjecture, it is speculated that Wayside is simply the formal name of Docks in the above list. While there is no definitive evidence of this, the terms are generally accepted as interchangeable.
Moving on, we can see from the Talisman map in the Dark Project mission The Haunted Cathedral that there are three more districts: Old Quarter, Hightowne, and Downtowne. We can tell these are districts because they have been given the same treatment as confirmed district New Market. Lastly, thanks to the map included in the Deadly Shadows manual, we can add South Quarter, Stonemarket, and Auldale to the list. All told, that brings our total list of confirmed districts up to thirteen:
- North Quarter
- New Quarter
- New Market
- Wayside Docks
- Old Quarter
- South Quarter
Keep in mind, we're only dealing with districts we've been able to confirm the existence of. By no means does this mean that there aren't any more districts in The City. Indeed, it is quite reasonable to assume that there are, in fact, others. However, this line of thought edges into the realm of fan fiction, and the whole point of this project is to limit ourselves to canon.
Since the TDS manual map not only provided the crucial evidence this project hinges on but also shows the very center of The City, that seems as good a place to start as any. As we can clearly see, a large N-S river divides The City into two (not necessarily equal) halves. This is supported by comments made by developer Randy Smith: “There’s a big friggin’ river in the city. It runs N-S and splits the city in 2. It joins the ocean to the south.”
In terms of districts, this map shows us Auldale on the east bank, Old Quarter and Stonemarket on the west bank—with Stonemarket to the north and Old Quarter to the south—South Quarter to the west of those, and finally Wayside Docks on the west coast. Note that for as much help as this map provides, it does not literally lay out the specific boundaries for these districts. This will be important later, as it allows us some wiggle room to work with.
Using the editors for all three games in the series, forum member Sxerks created overhead blueprints of every single level, correctly scaled to one another. Using these blueprints, it becomes possible to overlay the actual locations onto the TDS manual map and thus determine an appropriate scale for it as well. We know from Drept’s cutscene in TDS that the infamous Shalebridge Cradle is located just off the southernmost bridge, so let’s start there.
If we take the major roadways marked on the TDS manual map (an artistic touch, perhaps, but one which was itself used by the developers in the aforementioned cutscene) and use them as a constrainer for the Cradle, then we can use that for the scale. While this may seem quite small, keep in mind that The City is a massive place. Our notions of the "edge" of The City, although necessary to proceed, could potentially be far off the mark.
The only other map to provide any substantial information is the Talisman map from Dark Project’s Haunted Cathedral. On it, we can see another set of relationships between districts: New Market is shown to the southwest of Old Quarter, Hightowne to the west, and Downtowne to the south. Now, attempting to directly link this map with the TDS manual map proves… problematic. With the scale we’ve established, numerous locations set within these districts overlap.
How to resolve this? One approach is to assume that The City is in a state of constant flux, tearing down and rebuilding areas from one game to the next. However, the issue with this approach is that it grants us too much free reign. For all the problems that stem from trying to reconcile every bit of information, it is these very restrictions that enforce the notion of “the one working map” on which this project is based. Therefore, we must seek another solution to our dilemma.
Remember how I said the lack of distinct district lines would come in handy? Until this point, we’ve been treating all districts equally, but suppose we consider the possibility of certain districts being substantially smaller than the others, really more along the lines of notable areas within the other districts. If we apply this line of thinking to Stonemarket, making it into a subdistrict, we can expand the Old Quarter all the way up to the northernmost bridge. This is one of the largest concessions we’ve had to make in this endeavor, but it seems the only viable course of action.
In doing so, we open up the area to the north of South Quarter where we can place the Talisman map. This maintains the relationship of the other areas to Old Quarter without contradiction. This is further supported by Garrett’s own version of the Talisman map (Assassins), on which he has scrawled the note “Home Turf” along with an arrow pointing south. We know from a note in said mission (M5todo) that Garrett lives in South Quarter, which is further confirmed by his (new) residence in Deadly Shadows.
The Shalebridge Issue
Shalebridge is one of the more contentious issues this project has faced, and our solution to the problem involves some outside-the-box thinking. The most direct we have to its location comes from Garrett’s map in the Metal Age mission Ambush!, which indicates it is located to the northeast. But where does Ambush! occur? If we take into account that Garrett operates out of South Quarter, we can easily place his apartment therein. The presence of the Shalebridge Cradle at the southernmost bridge, as previously mentioned, further supports this claim.
The decision to make it into a subdistrict that encompasses the actual bridge itself, rather than any particular tract of land, neatly sidesteps the difficulty of cramming yet another district into an already crowded area. Part of the idea comes from the name, of course, but further evidence is lent by a conversation in Dark Project mission Bafford’s Manor (SV2C0201, SV1C0202, SV2C0203, SV1C0204). Since these comments indicate that the water table is of particular note in Shalebridge, it doesn't become too hard to imagine how New Market—whose goods are likely shipped up river—would be distressed by the thought of being able to walk across the river bed at Shalebridge, the mouth of the river and sole access to the ocean.
The Final Four
With the general relationships for the bulk of the districts thus established, we’re left with only Dayport, Eastport, New Quarter, and North Quarter to locate. We can’t forget that The City is split in two by a river, and so far the only district we’ve placed in the eastern half is Auldale. The architectural similarity of the Metal Age missions, distinct as it is from their Dark Project counterparts, supports the idea that they're located near one another but somehow separated from the others.
If we limit Auldale to a subdistrict near the middle bridge, which is all we know for certain, then the placement of the districts becomes relatively easy. Although there is no concrete evidence to the point, the -port districts we've located along the shoreline with Eastport, as the name implies, furthest in that direction. The last two districts take up the remaining space, again relying on the implication of the name to put North Quarter to the north and, therefore, New Quarter to the East.
More missions take place in South Quarter, Garrett’s home turf, than any other district. At least half of Ambush! is set here (see the Wayside section for an explanation of where and why), the location of his apartment in Metal Age. The South Quarter map in TDS is also set here, obviously, the location of which is determined by Gamall’s artifact map in TDS. Connected to that we have the Pagan Sanctuary and Pavelock Prison, while nearby the Lost City sprawls underneath from New Market.
The Keeper Compound where Garrett first encountered the Hag (the same place, we must assume, as A Keeper’s Training) is connected to TDS’ Old Quarter map, and is thus located in the southeastern corner of the district. The Rutherford Castle is set somewhere here along with the Blue Heron Inn—information garnered from TDS' first two mission briefings ("... a castle in South Quarter..." and "... a local inn..."). The exact locations cannot be determined, so we have placed them to best take up the district’s empty space.
As previously mentioned, Shipping… and Receiving is set in Wayside, as is Deadly Shadows’ Dock map (and by extension the Abysmal Gale, Sunken Citadel, and—visible just off shore—the House of Widow Moira). While Gamall’s artifact map is incorrect, showing TDS’ Dock map inland, we can simply move the location south until we hit the shore. Also note that the in-game level is incorrectly oriented, an error admitted by the developers themselves.
We’ve placed Shipping just south of the easternmost road, where the shoreline most closely matches the level’s cove. Ambush!, which is also partially set in Wayside, we’ve placed halfway between the Shipping and Dock missions, carefully aligned with the major roadway there. Garrett’s note on his map of the area indicates heading in that general direction will take him to Shalebridge, and this road would thus provide the fastest route there.
TDS’ Old Quarter map, home to Fort Ironwood, is wedged between the Keeper Compound and Shalebridge Cradle. We’ve decided to place Constantine’s to the far north, not only since his agent Viktoria operates in the north districts (M2ginny), but also because the mission indicates wilderness beyond its walls (and thus that it must be near the edge of The City). We’ve constrained Bafford’s within the small loop to the northeast, a decision supported by his concern over Viktoria operating in his neighborhood (M2ginny), its proximity to Stonemarket for the convenience of his cook (M2cook), and Bafford's own eventual interment at Fort Ironwood, an Old Quarter locale.
Then we have the infamous Barricades, the Walled area containing the Haunted Cathedral. Due to the presence of a street named after Auldale, we have positioned the Barricades next to the bridge leading to said district. Although Fort Ironwood has a monument to those who died during the Cataclysm, suggesting that it now stands where the Barricades once were, remember that this project cannot allot for a changing cityscape. We must assume it still exists, at least through Deadly Shadows.
New Market and Stonemarket
Due to their small size, the missions set in these market areas constitute the districts in their entirety. New Market is home to Assassins (though Ramirez's estate is technically within Hightowne) and serves as the entrance point to Karath-Din (setting of both The Lost City and Kidnap), though the bulk of the Lost City is actually underneath South Quarter. Meanwhile, TDS’ Stonemarket Plaza/Proper, St. Edgars, the Keeper Library, and the Clocktower combine to form the Stonemarket district. This establishes a distinct link between the Keepers and the river's west bank, along which all three of their known locations—Compound, Library, and the abandoned facility in the Barricades—are lined (and quite possibly linked via tunnels).
We know for a fact that First City Bank & Trust is found here, thanks to its address being listed (M07b03) in the mission. Considering its importance to The City, we’ve placed it near the crook of the intersecting roadways for easy access. Having established North Quarter as a progressive area, we have also included Shoalsgate (Framed) near the end of the northern road (which also places it conveniently near the river, from which the shoal part of its name is likely derived), and, by association, Sheriff Truart's estate (Blackmail). As with Constantine's, we've placed the latter near the edge of The City due to in-game evidence of woodland beyond the property.
New Quarter and Eastport
The Eastport Mechanist Seminary is clearly located in Eastport, so we’ve placed it smack dab in the middle of that area. Using it as a precedent, we’ve tried to focus other areas with strong Mechanist ties on the Eastside as well. Soulforge and Gervaisius’ (Casing the Joint, Masks) have both been laid in New Quarter, the former quite centrally at the end of the major roadway and the latter nearby to best fill up the space. The Rumford estate (Running Interference) has been placed on the eastern edge of New Quarter (again, there is evidence of outlying forests), if for no other reason than to keep the general layout balanced.
Dayport, Auldale, and Shalebridge
Once again using Gamall’s map, we are able to place the Auldale map from Deadly Shadows near the area's crossroads. This also tells us exactly where Wieldstrom Museum (the setting for Still Life with a Blackjack) is situated, seeing as the two are connected. For Life of the Party, we’ve simply aligned its main road with the one on the TDS manual map. And as previously mentioned, for the Shalebridge Cradle we can see in Drept's cutscene that it clearly rests just west of the actual bridge itself.
Hightowne and Downtowne
Thanks to the Talisman map, we know that the Hammerite temple, setting of Undercover and Strange Bedfellows, sits in the northwest corner of Downtowne. By that same stroke, we have placed Song of the Caverns in Hightowne, just on the other side of the road, as it too contains a talisman and is therefore located on the Talisman map. As for the Thieves' Guild, we've decided to place it in Downtowne. The reasons behind this are a bit convulated, but what follows is the best we've been able to come up with:
We know from the note in Assassins (m5dossier) that the Wardens have divvied up The City. Raputo has North Quarter, Shalebridge, Newmarket, and New Quarter, while Webster has Wayside, Dayport, and Eastport. Ramirez rules Old Quarter (m5baff) as well as South Quarter and Stonemarket (m5todo). Ownership of the three remaining districts (Auldale, Hightowne, Downtowne) is unknown. There may be another Warden, the Wardens might share control of these three, or they could simply be free from rule.
Now, m5todo mentions the Overlord’s Fancy, the gambling den in Thieves’ Guild, and from what is said Ramirez is both upset and curious if Raputo knows anything about it. This leads us to believe that a) it happens to be in a district he controls—or thinks he has a say in the control of—and b) he has reason to suspect Raputo. Remember, Ramirez rules the three major districts surrounding Downtowne, and yet Newmarket (Raputo's) borders Downtowne as well. Even more so than Hightowne (or Auldale, which is too far removed and ritzy to fit the profile), Downtowne would be an area of contention between these two.
You're probably asking, what on earth does this have to do with the Downwind Thieves' Guild? They're not even affiliated with the Wardens, after all. But that is precisely the point. In order for a small group like the Downwinders to survive in a city ruled by crime lords, they'd have to rely on confusion. Playing on the Wardens' mistrust of one other handicaps their ability to effectively respond to any incursion by the Downwinders themselves. Setting up their base of operations in Downtowne is the best possible choice for them.
The Mage Towers can be found just outside The City to the west. We know the general direction from the Talisman map, and its proximity from a note (m16b08exit) in the mission, indicating that it’s connected to The City’s sewers. A cutscene image (briefingli5) supports the idea that Hightowne, as its name denotes, is located in the foothills of western mountains. The hilly nature of Bonehoard suggests a connection, and since it was likely built long before the Eastside ever existed, these catacombs were meant to serve the nobility located in the Westside's most affluent district, Hightowne.
Going further out, we have then placed Cragscleft in the mountains proper, incidentally preserving the Hammerites:West::Mechanists:East alignment. It is for that same reason that Markham’s Isle lies somewhere to the southeast. Similarly, the Pagan village from Trail of Blood lies somewhere to the north, aligned with Constantine’s. The only location we cannot even begin to place is the Maw of Chaos, as being accessed via magical portal it could technically be anywhere within The City's limits, somewhere beyond, or even on another plane of existence altogether.
The City is divided in two by a great river, and each side has developed its own unique personality. The Eastside has proven to be the way of the future with its large and clearly defined districts. Auldale is home to The City’s nouveau riche, while the Mechanist Order has comfortably settled into New Quarter. In the North Quarter one can find the headquarters of the revolutionized City Watch and The City's major financial institution, while the southern ports have successfully combined industrial and commercial interests—unlike their contemporary Wayside, which is little more than a thin strip of wharves, brothels, and bars.
The Westside is where The City was originally founded. It is the older, the more chaotic, the less well kept of the two. Districts collide and overlap here, housing the second-tiers and fading powers—nobles like Bafford’s and organizations like the Hammers. It is also home to secrets and the unspeakable. The Keepers are based out of the Westside, and lurking underneath are a veritable network of tunnels and the remains of past civilizations. Both the Barricades and the Shalebridge Cradle are here, and it isn’t uncommon to see outbreaks of the undead or to have Pagans move into rundown and overlooked areas. Even beyond its borders lie the fearful and the unknown—mages laboring in their towers to unlock the secrets of magic, Pagan beasts lurking in the forests.
Precede -- L. praecēdō (prae- + cēdō), praecēdere
Precedent -- L. praecēdēns (pres. part. of praecēdere)
Predecessor -- L. prae + dēcēdō (dē + cēdō)
Precedaneous -- obsolete.
Thank you for your patience. We now return you to your regular topic.
"The map is almost exactly the same as the City from Deadly Shadows. It’s very similar, except bigger and more detailed. We made a few minor changes – the biggest is that Dayport is on the other side of the river now – that’s the only district that we’ve changed. But The Clocktower, the Cathedral, it’s all there, the feeling is the same. There is a lot to see. "
Alright, so do they have a legacy map from the previous developments? Should we ask them for one?
I thought the same thing but they're probably only referring to the ingame maps from the game. The one in TDS was prominent, but... wait, there is no official map showing Dayport on the right side, right? If I read the documentary correctly, Dayport on the east side of the river is based on the City Warden territories, placing it together with Eastport, aside from that aligning of the LotP map with the streets from the TDS map. They read the MotC project?
I assumed they were on about TDS' map until I remembered TDS doesn't actually have Dayport shown anywhere. Is Dayport even mentioned in that game? If not then they either read this (maybe they stalked the Thief wiki as research too?) or have access to another map. Or they had a similar project which would be... a surprising amount of effort.
Dayport isn't even mentioned in TDS or on any map, so who knows what they are looking at.
The Wiki's mapping only lists the known locations and doesn't have a speculative map .
Dayport is referenced as being in a rich district and it also has a road called the Barons Way(which may lead to the barons manor?) this would put it on the Auldale side of the river.
If they do have an older reference map that would be helpful.
Whether or not this is relevant to our map remains to be seen, but it bears mentioning:
As you probably know, a new trailer for Thief has dropped. What I'd like to direct your attention to is the 1:40 mark in the video. It's not much, but this is the first map we've seen of The City in the new game. I can't make out much, but it definitely mentions Auldale and--most interesting--an area called "Power City" from the looks of it...
NuThief maps are irrelevant, because they do not represent the canon of THIEF Universe...They are re-imagined, incongruent interpretations...unusable as a legitimate reference.
»>>>=== NewDark v1.21 === *** Stephen Russell - Petition & Poll *** 5000+ Signatures! === The Dark Mod v2.0 ===➣ •
Ah, welcome to LoucMachine at TTLG. Nice to see new faces around here...
I post as EbonHawk on the Steam forums, just in case you don't recognize me here, LoucMachine.
Amazing work on the mapping project, guys. Kudos.
My take is, if the nu map is in the ballpark of the previous iterations, it's worth making an updated version. It's not like we have to trash the herewego32 map; it's still there as the state of the art as of TDS. There could just be a new version for the new game. And maybe we can treat it as the same City at a different time.
In any event, I found the map-making we were doing before a fun kind of meta-game it'd be nice to do again.
I remember Dayport going eastside because eastside was the mechanist stronghold, and it has Angelwatch of all places. If Dayport does migrate to the west side of the river, I'm sure we can spin a story. I don't know; we'll have to see their maps to get an idea of what's going on and what they're talking about when they mention the layout of the past games.
The problem is probably that the new City is already "mapped-out". The City quarter overview we saw, together with the mentioning of the hub and its stepwise accessibility, points towards a far less dubious placement of the missions and available maps. It would be fun, though, to see if it still has gaps. T4 is the first game IMHO actively referring to map changes but the previous games didn't exactly respect each other's specific canon either, otherwise it would have been simpler for the City mapping project.
I would like to draw your collective attentions to a few small details that seem to be of some import.
Map Inconsistencies: There are several of these, mostly in TDS. They are usually a 90 degree discrepancy between the map orientation and the compass. Sain Edgar's, Shalebridge Cradle, Docks, and Abysmal Gale all have this discrepancy. I view this as significant because it really is just one discrepancy. In all of these areas, the North point of the compass faces East. What makes this even more interesting is that the stars in the T2 sky are also rotated 90 degrees, so that North faces East.
I propose that Old Quarter doesn't need to be stretched around Stonemarket because on the true map (from which the developers designed the City in-game) South Quarter is already to the South.
Last edited by Fish Preferred; 20th Oct 2013 at 18:39.