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Thread: Mapping out The City.

  1. #2351
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: thief.wikia.com
    Dayport isn't even mentioned in TDS or on any map, so who knows what they are looking at.

    The Wiki's mapping only lists the known locations and doesn't have a speculative map .

    Dayport is referenced as being in a rich district and it also has a road called the Barons Way(which may lead to the barons manor?) this would put it on the Auldale side of the river.


    If they do have an older reference map that would be helpful.

  2. #2352
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Whether or not this is relevant to our map remains to be seen, but it bears mentioning:

    As you probably know, a new trailer for Thief has dropped. What I'd like to direct your attention to is the 1:40 mark in the video. It's not much, but this is the first map we've seen of The City in the new game. I can't make out much, but it definitely mentions Auldale and--most interesting--an area called "Power City" from the looks of it...

  3. #2353
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    NuThief maps are irrelevant, because they do not represent the canon of THIEF Universe...They are re-imagined, incongruent interpretations...unusable as a legitimate reference.

  4. #2354
    Quote Originally Posted by Vae View Post
    NuThief maps are irrelevant, because they do not represent the canon of THIEF Universe...They are re-imagined, incongruent interpretations...unusable as a legitimate reference.
    NuThief Story/Lore is such a mess

  5. #2355
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Lost in the BSP...
    Ah, welcome to LoucMachine at TTLG. Nice to see new faces around here...

    I post as EbonHawk on the Steam forums, just in case you don't recognize me here, LoucMachine.

    Amazing work on the mapping project, guys. Kudos.

  6. #2356
    Quote Originally Posted by Hit Deity View Post
    Ah, welcome to LoucMachine at TTLG. Nice to see new faces around here...

    I post as EbonHawk on the Steam forums, just in case you don't recognize me here, LoucMachine.

    Amazing work on the mapping project, guys. Kudos.
    Hahaha Nice !!

  7. #2357
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by Vae View Post
    NuThief maps are irrelevant, because they do not represent the canon of THIEF Universe...They are re-imagined, incongruent interpretations...unusable as a legitimate reference.
    *shrug* We're cartographers. Even if it doesn't prove relevent, it's a topic of interest for us.

  8. #2358
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: Tokyo desu
    My take is, if the nu map is in the ballpark of the previous iterations, it's worth making an updated version. It's not like we have to trash the herewego32 map; it's still there as the state of the art as of TDS. There could just be a new version for the new game. And maybe we can treat it as the same City at a different time.

    In any event, I found the map-making we were doing before a fun kind of meta-game it'd be nice to do again.

    I remember Dayport going eastside because eastside was the mechanist stronghold, and it has Angelwatch of all places. If Dayport does migrate to the west side of the river, I'm sure we can spin a story. I don't know; we'll have to see their maps to get an idea of what's going on and what they're talking about when they mention the layout of the past games.

  9. #2359
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    The problem is probably that the new City is already "mapped-out". The City quarter overview we saw, together with the mentioning of the hub and its stepwise accessibility, points towards a far less dubious placement of the missions and available maps. It would be fun, though, to see if it still has gaps. T4 is the first game IMHO actively referring to map changes but the previous games didn't exactly respect each other's specific canon either, otherwise it would have been simpler for the City mapping project.

  10. #2360
    I would like to draw your collective attentions to a few small details that seem to be of some import.

    Map Inconsistencies: There are several of these, mostly in TDS. They are usually a 90 degree discrepancy between the map orientation and the compass. Sain Edgar's, Shalebridge Cradle, Docks, and Abysmal Gale all have this discrepancy. I view this as significant because it really is just one discrepancy. In all of these areas, the North point of the compass faces East. What makes this even more interesting is that the stars in the T2 sky are also rotated 90 degrees, so that North faces East.

    I propose that Old Quarter doesn't need to be stretched around Stonemarket because on the true map (from which the developers designed the City in-game) South Quarter is already to the South.
    Last edited by Fish Preferred; 20th Oct 2013 at 17:39.

  11. #2361
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by Fish Preferred View Post
    They are usually a 90 degree discrepancy between the map orientation and the compass.
    The developers admitted to that oversight, so I think we're safe ignoring the compass when orienting the affected levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish Preferred View Post
    I propose that Old Quarter doesn't need to be stretched around Stonemarket because on the true map (from which the developers designed the City in-game) South Quarter is already to the South.
    True map? No one outside of the development team has ever seen it, hence the reason this project exists in the first place. In any event, the stretching of Old Quarter was a concession we made to address the inconsistencies mashing together the various in-game maps brought about.

  12. #2362
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Brown View Post
    In any event, the stretching of Old Quarter was a concession we made to address the inconsistencies mashing together the various in-game maps brought about.
    Yes, but the 90 degree rotation accounts for a great many of these inconsistencies. It is further supported by the map seen in the "nuthief" trailer (yes, I know it is not canon, but it is highly suggestive), which also has a compass rose oriented in this way. With this in mind, I have compiled a number of maps of varying scale and layout. Here are a few:

    http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/File:SpecMap1.jpg
    http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/File:SpecMap2.jpg

    You may notice that there are some anomalies. Gamall's lair, for example, is jutting out into the river, but this actually complies with the distance between Auldale and the bridge to Old Quarter in-game. I've also separated the Pagan Sanctuary from South Quarter because the entrance is clearly not via the same well and there is no giant tree bordering the gate to Stonemarket.
    Last edited by Fish Preferred; 27th Nov 2013 at 15:13. Reason: changed `compass` to `compass rose`

  13. #2363
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Wait, so you're suggesting that the incorrectly oriented maps/compasses/skies be treated as fact? Even though there is at least one instance of a developer saying this is a mistake? And doesn't that create discrepencies with all of the other levels where the map/compass/sky is oriented correctly?

  14. #2364

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish Preferred View Post
    Gamall's lair, for example, is jutting out into the river, but this actually complies with the distance between Auldale and the bridge to Old Quarter in-game.
    You can see the Bridge to Old Quarter in-game? Or is it just any bridge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish Preferred View Post
    I've also separated the Pagan Sanctuary from South Quarter because the entrance is clearly not via the same well and there is no giant tree bordering the gate to Stonemarket.
    When you jump into a well and fall out of a well then, it's most obviously because it is the same well. You have to find good reasons for saying it is not the same well.

  15. #2365
    Quote Originally Posted by cragscleft7 View Post
    You can see the Bridge to Old Quarter in-game? Or is it just any bridge?
    Yes, the bridge is at the end of the passage behind the gate to Old Quarter. The fog makes it hard to see, but I've found a way to get close, as you can see from these pictures I took while playing TDS on the XBox.
    http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/File:100_0194.JPG
    http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/File:Bridge1.JPG

    Quote Originally Posted by cragscleft7 View Post
    When you jump into a well and fall out of a well then, it's most obviously because it is the same well. You have to find good reasons for saying it is not the same well.
    The well in South Quarter is the rustic wooden type with a little roof over it.
    http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/File:TDS...nsanctuary.jpg

    The well in the Pagan tunnels is a metal shaft with a clear view of the sky.
    you can see this on Lytha's "Let's Sneak: Thief Deadly Shadows, pt. 18 - Pagan Sanctuary" (3:56 - 4:37).

  16. #2366
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: In A Treasure Chest
    also are you going to let people know where the access point is to the maw and thieves den, and where mage towers are located and the opera house in song of the caverns,i guess you could go from mission 1 of thief 1 and find all kinds of places that do not disclose the locations.

    and if the maw in the first thief is the same maw in the second thief

    i would go on and on but i think my point is made.

  17. #2367
    Your point may be there, but it lacks clarity. I am not claiming to know the precise location of the Overlord's Fancy or the Mage Towers. Nor do I see any reason for the Maw to show up anywhere on a map of the City.
    The opera house is shown on the maps I made (it's the big beige square with the squigly grey protrusion).

  18. #2368
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: In A Treasure Chest
    Quote Originally Posted by Fish Preferred View Post
    Your point may be there, but it lacks clarity. I am not claiming to know the precise location of the Overlord's Fancy or the Mage Towers. Nor do I see any reason for the Maw to show up anywhere on a map of the City.
    The opera house is shown on the maps I made (it's the big beige square with the squigly grey protrusion).
    so what determines what area would be on map,would it be the mission location or the area the mission is in?

    i think a map would show all places garrett has been to?

    is it even possible to make a map that would have ever place from t1/tg/t2/t3?

    or is it possible to add quotes to some area's to add famous places all thief players would know? as in maw entrance/via the lost caves

    also i had a idea to get shape of each area,if you can use a fly over and screen shot area then shrink it mini to place on map then it would even even show mini layout,making it seem like almost a blue print

  19. #2369
    The locations I have placed on my maps are those which are known to be associated with the districts involved in TDS. That is what determines what is included on them.

    The Maw is a separate realm altogether and cannot have a solitary immobile access point, or else Garrett would have been familiar with the geography of Beck-o'-the-Wills. I do not recall any mention of lost caves, so you may need to direct me to the quotes you're referring to.

    Overhead screenshots would not be practical for T1, TG, or T2 because of rendering limitations. I'm not sure about TDS.

  20. #2370
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by downwinder
    also i had a idea to get shape of each area,if you can use a fly over and screen shot area then shrink it mini to place on map then it would even even show mini layout,making it seem like almost a blue print
    Uh.... we already have those. They're what the various map iterations you see are using.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Brown
    Using the editors for all three games in the series, forum member Sxerks created overhead blueprints of every single level, correctly scaled to one another.

  21. #2371
    If we're to talk about it, I agree with the sentiment that we could have multiple interpretations of the evidence. Looking at Fish Preferred's stuff, it could be that his/her map would be an alternative to the previous version, given different weights to each piece of evidence.

    I haven't given it a thorough scrutiny yet though.

  22. #2372
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    The question is, should we? Considering how many possible variations there can be, wasn't the purpose of this project to come up with a single interpretation that best fit everyone's needs?

    Having said that, I'm not opposed to making the switch to Fish's version. If we do move in that direction, though, I'd still like to address my previous concerns about it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Brown
    Wait, so you're suggesting that the incorrectly oriented maps/compasses/skies be treated as fact? Even though there is at least one instance of a developer saying this is a mistake? And doesn't that create discrepencies with all of the other levels where the map/compass/sky is oriented correctly?

  23. #2373
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: Tokyo desu
    I don't think there's anything wrong with having branch or fork versions alongside a main version. I mean that's a good way to handle it IMO -- and the typical way for open source / community projects -- a main trunk "community" version & fork or branch "local" versions.

    There are a few things I disagreed with the main branch and could have my own fork too, but I understood the reasoning & evidence behind everything in the community version so thought it was at least justified, and the disagreements were small compared to how much thought was put on the whole that I agreed with.

    I mean what distinguishes the community version is it's gone through community vetting over a period. People propose local changes that start off as a branch, then it goes through the vetting, and if it passes muster then the community agrees to update the main version with that change. That long vetting process is the value of a community project, so I think it's good to privilege it. But I don't think we should presume to "forbid" alt versions, just recognize them as fork versions that are healthy food for thought and worth thinking about if anything should update the main version.

    Edit: For the record, I'm on board that the compass issues are the equivalent of a typo in a novel, so the translation from "game world reality" to "media" is a mismatch we can correct to get a more accurate picture of the world reality (which is what the map should really be after). So that's why I agreed with the way our map dealt with it.

  24. #2374
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Brown View Post
    Wait, so you're suggesting that the incorrectly oriented maps/compasses/skies be treated as fact? Even though there is at least one instance of a developer saying this is a mistake? And doesn't that create discrepencies with all of the other levels where the map/compass/sky is oriented correctly?
    1 Yes; fact or at least plausible scenario.
    2 Not really; as Randy himself stated on page 4, misinformation was intentionally woven into the games. Therefore, "uhhhhh woops" could just as easily be interpreted as "damn, we must have missed that when we turned everything around".
    3 Not necessarily. I haven't personally been able to check the star map in every mission, so I can't vouch for the consistency of that, but in all map/compass orientations of the placeable areas, it is always either North or East with respect to the Big Thief 3 Map (BT3M).

    Anything from T2 which has both map and compass aligned with the sky can be assumed to be correctly oriented. These would be Truart Estate and Gervaisius Estate, according to jermi (in the Proper Stars thread). T1 and TDS areas don't have a reliable sky pattern (that I know of, at least) so we may never know how to position many of them, but playable districts and anything directly linked to them would still have to be either 0 or 90 degrees from the BT3M compass rose.

    From an in-universe perspective, there are three explanations for this:
    1 Certain parts of The City are located in regions rich in magnetite or other strongly ferromagnetic ore, which has caused amateur cartographers to mark their maps incorrectly.
    2 The planet has undergone a partial geomagnetic reversal and these local discrepancies reflect the slow and uneven rearrangement of the core. The BT3M, in all its forms, would have been drawn very near the end of the reversal event.
    3 A Pagan god did it.
    Last edited by Fish Preferred; 27th Nov 2013 at 15:27.

  25. #2375
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    There are a few things I disagreed with the main branch and could have my own fork too, but I understood the reasoning & evidence behind everything in the community version so thought it was at least justified, and the disagreements were small compared to how much thought was put on the whole that I agreed with.
    I'd be interested in hearing them, actually, if for no other reason than that this thread has been relatively quiet for some time now.

    P.S. You may have mentioned them in the past and I've just forgotten, so apologies if that's the case. This thread has grown to such an unwieldy size that trying to find specific info within it has become an arduous task.

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