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Thread: Sound

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: on the periodic table

    Sound

    I wonder if Bioshock will be different. In System Shock (and Thief and others) you could always hear an enemy, usually before you see them. You hear them from far, making their specific noise/clip. It's one of the very unrealistic features, that makes playing easier (you hear enemy type A around the corner and load ammo type A... Or guards in Thief that are chatting loudly...). I wonder if they finally break this "tradition" and let enemies surprise you, or sneak up on you. Or just tune the noise more to the surroundings than the type of enemy. - Footsteps around the corner, but you don't know what/who it is...

    I've read that the enemies will be less categorised and more flexible in their behaviour/equipment. I hope these enemies also learnt that talking/shuffling feet/grunting/gargling/singing is an option and not an addiction.

    Or let the player go deaf for 10 minutes after loud shots/explosions when you dive too deep you hear a pop and your left speaker goes silent

  2. #2
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by tungsten View Post
    In System Shock (and Thief and others) you could always hear an enemy, usually before you see them. You hear them from far, making their specific noise/clip. It's one of the very unrealistic features
    You're right! Different things that sound different, and sounds that are audible over a distance, are completely unrealistic!

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2005
    Location: Among the many
    I listen to music on my MP3 player when stealing cars and robbing banks. It just adds so much extra tension to the experience, never knowing where the police will spring from. Maybe you should try adjusting your audio settings too.

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: on the periodic table
    If you really couldn't understand my bad English, let me try to explain it a bit further:
    Realism is not the important point here. The point is that the games so far tried to make it difficult for the player, but the audio-track was always "easy", and one of the weak spots of the games/enemies.
    How do you play a game? You start it, learn to move around/control your possibilities and then you somehow try to find the weaknesses in the programming of the enemies/structures (I don't mean exploiting bugs but you learn how they move, how you can trick them, how you have to solve puzzles, what part of the arsenal is good/overpowered and which useless...). To me, sound was always one of those weaknesses. - It was a bit like playing a strategy-game with "show opponent's moves" switched on.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: East Coast Elite :D
    I dont think we had trouble understanding your English, just your point. Sometimes I think certain noises carry too far or between rooms to well, but I think thats more of a bug than design. I'm thief, it works backwards sometimes, with guards hearing you through rooms and ending up chasing you down from far away, I think its probably just a dark engine limitation.

    If what you mean is that you think its to easy to ALWAYS hear what your about to come up against, I agree. I think it would be way more suspenseful if you knew that there were certain enemies that didnt make noise, that just sat in a dark corner and waited for you to walk by and ambushed you from behind. Something that would make you feel tense in an empty room, that would add an interesting element.

    I think if things are walking around, you should hear them from reasonable distance. I think things shouldn't make noise just to make noise so you know they are there, just have them make realistic noises and if you are paying enough attention and moving slow enough to hear, you should.

  6. #6
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by BEAR View Post
    I think it would be way more suspenseful if you knew that there were certain enemies that didnt make noise, that just sat in a dark corner and waited for you to walk by and ambushed you from behind. Something that would make you feel tense in an empty room, that would add an interesting element.
    If by "interesting element" you mean "retardedly Doom-inspired element", then I agree.

    As the developers of Thief have repeatedly stated, this game is not about being surprised or ambushed by your enemies, it's about avoiding and manipulating them. That's why they made Garrett a slow weakling, but with excellent situational awareness. You're supposed to know enemies are coming long before you see them.

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Toronto, Canada
    If the fidelity of the player's senses is causing you grief because you feel it takes away from the challenge of the game then I think the solution is to make the enemies more clever and work on their capabilities, endowing them with the same stealth and clever tactics that the player is expected to use. Screwing with the laws of physics to make things more challenging isn't more realistic. It may mean you have to be that much more aware of your surroundings but you're using subtractive tactics to solve a problem here instead of additive ones. The problem is not that the player hears too well but that the enemies always give themselves away. I'm sure at the time it was deemed impractical to give the AI such a high level of sophistication that they would be able to surprise you without the devs needing to cut corners with cheap tricks.

    I'm sure Bioshock will have a very realistic audio system but I also think that there will be nothing routine about the way the player detects the various hazards in the game as well.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: East Coast Elite :D
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    If by "interesting element" you mean "retardedly Doom-inspired element", then I agree.

    As the developers of Thief have repeatedly stated, this game is not about being surprised or ambushed by your enemies, it's about avoiding and manipulating them. That's why they made Garrett a slow weakling, but with excellent situational awareness. You're supposed to know enemies are coming long before you see them.
    Yeah, I guess you have a point, but doom was a really poor example of that (I guess its one of the only examples of that, but I dont really mean how they did it). I think it would be neat to play a game that expanded on their pretty shitty implementation of that into a more dynamic AI. I dont know that I would want in a Thief game, and it wouldnt be cool if it were some kind of "monster waiting to ambush you no matter what you do" kind of situation, more you enter a dark room and insted of just sneaking on, you sit and listen for a second for somthing that might be hiding, somthing that can still be ambushed but somthing that forces you to be more aware. Doom 3's shadow-hiding-zombies wernt that interesting, I agree with that.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    I liked that aspect of Far Cry - enemies who were aware of your presence might try to flank and quietly sneak up on you.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Las Vegas
    On the subject of sound, I'm curious if Irrational has said anything about the game being capable of 5.1 surround. With a game like this, I think it would definitely add to the overall enjoyment of it.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Quote Originally Posted by Fygee View Post
    On the subject of sound, I'm curious if Irrational has said anything about the game being capable of 5.1 surround. With a game like this, I think it would definitely add to the overall enjoyment of it.
    No, it will only offer Stereo, you know. And for those poor who don't own a proper sound system, there'll be even an option for Mono. Uh-huh.

    5.1 is the minimum, I expect Bioshock will support 7.1 and X-Fi as well.

  12. #12
    is Best Pony
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: The magical land of Equestria
    Yeah, it's about time someone put the X-RAM to good use.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Vienna, Austria

    NO SOUND IN VISTA

    u are all aware that the x-fi drivers are broken in VISTA ?

    there is no hardware - support thru creative-vista-drivers.
    meaning no EAX, no X-RAM, everything Creative put into their cards
    is GONE !!!! only software-audio-rendering.
    only way to utilize special sound-hardware in VISTA at this time would
    be to use the OpenAI-system.
    This would require the game itself to support it and Developers nowadays
    only give u Miles2/3d software or EAX hardware.
    only a few games (quake4) support the OpenAI drivers....

    so it COULD be that upon launch of BIOSHOCK the 32bit-XP-DX9-Version
    will have BETTER sound that the Vista-DX10-Version (although worse
    performance in the graphic section)

    it's an outrage and creative is already on the barricades calling it an attack on their company.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: New Zealand

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: May 2003
    Location: Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by mothra View Post
    it's an outrage and creative is already on the barricades calling it an attack on their company.
    while I feel sorry for the consumers with problems, I've never been impressed with creative's drivers on any windows version. Bloated, installation order issues, and inexcusable idiotic issues like I have in my current setup where it refuses to save the speaker configuration (resets on every restart).

    an attack on their company... boohoo they can cry me a river, let's not forget the disgusting patent blackmail stunt they pulled on id, to force creative HW support into the doom3 engine.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Vienna, Austria
    yeah, creative sucks. but MS sucks more.
    apart from that, openAL must be supported by the game itself, creative
    only provides the interface in their drivers to use their HW-mixing, EAX, X-ram
    and so forth. so all the game developers will have to make an extra effort
    to support x-fi cards which will likely not happen (time = money)
    but i don't care. as long as it's a decent 5.1 mix it's OK with me.
    no need do go all quake4 on me. (although quake4 sounds like the SH*T with my x-fi)

  17. #17
    is Best Pony
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: The magical land of Equestria
    Quote Originally Posted by Hemebond View Post
    More or less. Creative are re-writing/have re-written their drivers to intercept the DirectSound calls before they reach the API, converting them into OpenAL calls before they do. So ... yeah, Chicken Little.

  18. #18
    New Member
    Registered: Jan 2005
    System Shock 2 voice acting and pretty much most of the atmospheric sound is amongst the best that I've ever heard. I really do hope that Bioshock will keep the same quality.

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: abertillery, wales
    http://2kgames.com/bioshock/
    System Shock 2 voice acting and pretty much most of the atmospheric sound is amongst the best that I've ever heard. I really do hope that Bioshock will keep the same quality.
    check this out if you havnt already http://2kgames.com/bioshock ,sounding horrific already

  20. #20
    New Member
    Registered: Oct 2006
    I am interested in how the sound elements of Bioshock will play out. I enjoy listening to SS2's vast selection of audio when I'm bored. Being set completely underwater and a more modern game itself, there should be an every larger amount of ambient noise, be it the gurgling of water, the music playing in various stores, etc. You may find that the various mutterings of the ambient life may blend into the environment, much more-so than System Shock 2.

    I think that more powerful monsters should be heard from a distance. I know that in SS2, whenever I'd hear "XERXES, NOTHING ON VISUAL" combined with grinding gears, I'd scoot the hell out of the direction of the sound. It adds to the tension IMO, hearing enemies before you can see them.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
    I like silent enemies, don't stab me because I use example from another game: but when I met the first stealth soldier in FEAR, I had to take a break because I hit my keyboard so hard.

    Painful but fun.

  22. #22
    New Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    One thing that I'm really hoping won't disappear in BioShock is the enemy voices. Back when I played SS2, it was great hearing the mutants calling for you as they tracked you down, kind of like a huge game of hide and seek (which, considering the mother-like nature of the core, isn't a bad explanation for their behavior). Some enemies make sense being silent, mainly when they are laying a trap for you, but otherwise, enemies would talk to each other, mutter to themselves about their mutations, or call after you after you angered them and they are hunting you down. Being able to hear them calling you gave you the option of stand and fight or run and hide, something I hope is one of those choices that you can have in BioShock.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2001
    Location: Småland, Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by Myagi View Post
    while I feel sorry for the consumers with problems, I've never been impressed with creative's drivers on any windows version. Bloated, installation order issues, and inexcusable idiotic issues like I have in my current setup where it refuses to save the speaker configuration (resets on every restart).

    an attack on their company... boohoo they can cry me a river, let's not forget the disgusting patent blackmail stunt they pulled on id, to force creative HW support into the doom3 engine.
    Heh, indeed. And EAX is enough overrated as it is. Creative haven't released any decent soundcard since the DOS days.

    Sometimes I wonder how PC audio would be like if Creative actually made their stuff themselves instead of ripping it out of their dead competitors. We could have cheap, high quality MIDI (E-MU), compatibility with ISA cards (Ensoniq), superior 3D sound (Aureal), and Dolby Digital encoding in hardware (Sensaura), but nooo, Creative had to ruin the fun for everyone.

    So a boycott of Creative (from both users and developers) would only be a good thing. Not that it will happen, tho. But right now I'm a happy user of a Terratec card.
    Last edited by Freddo; 17th Dec 2006 at 20:14.

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: East Coast Elite :D
    Quote Originally Posted by Animeye View Post
    One thing that I'm really hoping won't disappear in BioShock is the enemy voices. Back when I played SS2, it was great hearing the mutants calling for you as they tracked you down, kind of like a huge game of hide and seek (which, considering the mother-like nature of the core, isn't a bad explanation for their behavior). Some enemies make sense being silent, mainly when they are laying a trap for you, but otherwise, enemies would talk to each other, mutter to themselves about their mutations, or call after you after you angered them and they are hunting you down. Being able to hear them calling you gave you the option of stand and fight or run and hide, something I hope is one of those choices that you can have in BioShock.
    Its amazing what first impressions do. The first thing you hear pratically from someone in the game is when you crawl up that ladder and are starting in that first little crawl space. You see the that woman run by screaming, and a Hybrid chasing her, stop and say somthing and start shooting. I dont remember exactly what he said (it was somthing they always said), like "Run, hurry" or "Im sorry", but that shit was good. That put you in the mood like nothing else.

  25. #25
    New Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: uhh duno theres sky and grass
    i would like condemed's system mixed with SS2 like in condemned you would here things fall down but make it a bit more random like irrational is already doing with the AI. IMO it intensifies (sp?) the atmosphere and makes the game a hell of alot scarier but if the enemy is far away it should like it is because in SS2 no matter how far they are its the same volume but I guess technology was limited in those days

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