Thief2/Ss2: nVidia 8500/8600/8800 - Crappy colours/textures

[Sneak]

My geforce 6600GT seems to be in the middle. It has the crappy sky, but good lighting.

Yeah, my 6800 GT had great lighting and textures but the sky was off too. My 5900 was the last card I owned which did everything right.

If all else fails I may have to put together a comp from old parts for old games. Hope there is a fix though.

[Sneak]

Hmm, well thats interesting. All my old cards are AGP but this new comp is PCI-e. But there are some older PCI-e cards around for cheap. I know the 6800 GT was made in PCI-e but is there an older one?

Question: Do you get an extra tab under display properties this way or just the old control panel that you have to click the advanced button to get too. And is the Control Panel applet that the 8800 uses still there in control panel, just not usable with the older card and driver?

Nice idea!

Ok, I have found one possible work around....

I got to thinking, windows supports multi gfx cards in one machine and as most monitors these days have dual inputs I thought I should be able to play Thief on the second video card and then just flick the input on the monitor. The spare card I have used for this experiment is an FX5200 PCI (not pci-e)

1. Install the latested driver (158.22) for the 8800GTX
2. Install the 61.21 driver the FX5200 and click 'no' to replace files (when the installer askeds if u want to replace old with new)
3. Then in display properties change the primary display from the 8800 to the 5200.
4. Fire up thief and eureka lovely textures and sky again. (nb. the sky is much better under the 61.21 driver btw)

nb. you will notice that the nVidia control panel has been replaced with the old style CP, there are pro's and cons to this though...

# pros - you can overclock the 8800 again from the CP, no need for Ati tool or riva tuner.
# cons - I was unable to modify 'Anisotropic filter option' - its stuck on application-controlled.
- the FX5200 is a crap slow card, I`ll be looking to replace this with a PCI ATi or VooDoo card.

Biker

[MH.TheFreak]

My geforce 6600GT seems to be in the middle. It has the crappy sky, but good lighting.

Don't forget transparency textures & objects (water, too) and coronas. They look crappy, too.

[bikerdude]

Ok, I have found 1 working and 1 possible work arounds....

Please check the first post!

biker

Hmm, well thats interesting. I know the 6800 GT was made in PCI-e but is there an older one?

yes the FX5900 series.

Question: Do you get an extra tab under display properties this way or just the old control panel that you have to click the advanced button to get too. And is the Control Panel applet that the 8800 uses still there in control panel, just not usable with the older card and driver? Nice idea!

Just the old control panel, you can control both cards using the old control panel! This is the same for the 8800/5200 and 8800/7900 combo's (but be aware i havent gottent eh 8800/7900 to work with thif yet)

biker

[Sneak]

Ok, I have found two work arounds....




8800GTX(PCI-E) & 7900GT(PCI-E)
1. Installed the 158.19 (Z-tweaked) for the 8800GTX
3. Then in display properties change the primary display from the 8800 to the 7900.
4. Fire up thief and eureka lovely textures
5a. As the Z-tweaked driver used the old control panel, both cards can be configured and you can overclock the 8800 and the 7900 from the CP.
5b. The old control panel limits the amount of AA to x4 you can apply on the 8800, this may be a problem for some.

NB - dont forget to change the primary card back to the 8800 when you want to use that one for your newer games

Biker



biker

OK for that 8800 and 7900 combo you used the same driver, right? Did you try the driver that is not the Z-tweaked but the straight Nvidia to see what would happen or will that not work with the 7900? Am asking because it seems Nvidia is not doing the unified driver thing anymore.

Also on that 7900 card, are all textures, sky, and water corrected? If so that is good to know. As was posted above, it seemed that it was before the 6800's that everything was perfect with Thief. My last perfect card was the 5900. But the 6800 seemed only to be the sky that was odd and I didn't really care as Thief is mostly indoors.

Looks like I may be hunting down a second PCI-e card. I have 3 PCI-e slots on my new Mobo. And I am not doing SLI so I will use it to try this. Is just a matter of which video card.

[bikerdude]

Did you try the driver that is not the Z-tweaked but the straight Nvidia to see what would happen or will that not work with the 7900?

yes and non modded drivers wont work as they wont support the older card/s

Also on that 7900 card, are all textures, sky, and water corrected?

Everything but the sky is as it should be, but remember it wont be as pretty as an Ati card would be( ie. colours and coronas etc)

Looks like I may be hunting down a second PCI-e card. I have 3 PCI-e slots on my new Mobo. And I am not doing SLI so I will use it to try this. Is just a matter of which video card.

Same here, Im undesided on what card to get, as you say the 5900 was the last perfect card for Thief. there should be no reason why not, but i wonder if i can have an Ati 9x00/Xx00 PCI card along side my 8800 - more research is in order

biker

[BrendaEM]

I had wondered if the card/driver IS doing 16-bit rendering, but composting has been reduced to 8-bits.

If you look at the screenshots at the start of this thread, the full-bright textures such as the building facade between the fence, look similar in both shots. Perhaps the lightmap is added/mutiplied, perhaps that color-math process is 8-bit. Perhaps the transparency bug, the sky bug, and the lightmap bug--are all the same bug.

[bikerdude]

I had wondered if the card/driver IS doing 16-bit rendering, but composting has been reduced to 8-bits.

If you look at the screenshots at the start of this thread, the full-bright textures such as the building facade between the fence, look similar in both shots. Perhaps the lightmap is added/mutiplied, perhaps that color-math process is 8-bit. Perhaps the transparency bug, the sky bug, and the lightmap bug--are all the same bug.

your getting into tech stuff that I dont know much about Brenda. Suffice to say, what your suggesting sounds like a major mod of the game exe and or drivers

biker

[Sneak]

yes and non modded drivers wont work as they wont support the older card/s



biker

Can you install separate drivers for the 7900 like you could the 5200? And the reason for that would be so you could still update 8800 drivers as needed for newer games as they come out but still have an older and stable set for the 7900 with Thief and maybe other games with rendering troubles that no one has brought up yet.

There are still new 7900's out there in PCI-e which may be a plus. The 5900 for PCI-e would probably be used. That may be OK if the price is cheap enough. But I am still thinking.

[Sneak]

I had wondered if the card/driver IS doing 16-bit rendering, but composting has been reduced to 8-bits.

If you look at the screenshots at the start of this thread, the full-bright textures such as the building facade between the fence, look similar in both shots. Perhaps the lightmap is added/mutiplied, perhaps that color-math process is 8-bit. Perhaps the transparency bug, the sky bug, and the lightmap bug--are all the same bug.

Yeah Brenda, you may be right there. And if it is the same bug that different cards have handled differently then it is set in stone unless some sharp modder can make a game patch for it. At this point as old as Thief is I don't see Eidos making another Patch.

[bikerdude]

Can you install separate drivers for the 7900 like you could the 5200? And the reason for that would be so you could still update 8800 drivers as needed for newer games as they come out but still have an older and stable set for the 7900 with Thief and maybe other games with rendering troubles that no one has brought up yet.

yes, I have tested the 153.22/85.46 combo. But be aware you have to manually install the older driver (eg. device manager, point to folder location etc, and never overright newer files with old etc etc)

[smithpd]

Hi Sneak. This is the ghosting Sneak, right? Peter Smith here. So, are you getting back into Thief?

Driver selection for 7000 series cards is not that easy. The 7000 series cards have some issues for running T1 because recent drivers that support those cards cause T1 to crash. The 7950 GT is even more challenging. T2 and T3 are OK. I have managed to get all three Thief versions running with my 7950 GT. This involves finding modified drivers and maybe replacing the INF file. Check this thread for details.

I am interested in this dual video card approach. If you have an SLI capable motherboard with two PCI-E X16 slots, but SLI is turned off and you don't use the SLI bridge, can you install one card, say a 7950 GT in one PCI-E slot, and the second card, say an ATI card, in another PCI-E slot? That would be a cool way to have both good sky and good fog on demand.

[Sneak]

Hi Sneak. This is the ghosting Sneak, right? Peter Smith here. So, are you getting back into Thief?

Driver selection for 7000 series cards is not that easy. The 7000 series cards have some issues for running T1 because recent drivers that support those cards cause T1 to crash. The 7950 GT is even more challenging. T2 and T3 are OK. I have managed to get all three Thief versions running with my 7950 GT. This involves finding modified drivers and maybe replacing the INF file. Check this thread for details.

I am interested in this dual video card approach. If you have an SLI capable motherboard with two PCI-E X16 slots, but SLI is turned off and you don't use the SLI bridge, can you install one card, say a 7950 GT in one PCI-E slot, and the second card, say an ATI card, in another PCI-E slot? That would be a cool way to have both good sky and good fog on demand.

Hi Peter Smith,
Has been a while. Yes this is the Ghosting Sneak. And for sure I am back to Thief again. Built a new comp because I could not upgrade from AGP anymore and I needed a new rig anyway. Came out to try some new FM's and they just did not look right. Ended up here trying to figure out the trouble. Right now T Gold looks better than T2 on my comp but even Gold has cruddy shadows.

And yes that seems to be just what Bikerdude has tested for. Two different cards in two different slots with two different drivers and you can switch between the two as needed. Might be the ticket. But after what you posted on the 7000 series I may just look for a 6800 PCI-e. I had the AGP version of that card for years in my last comp and it rendered Thief really well with smooth action. Just the sky looked un-detailed. It was a BFG card and it also ran my 24 inch widescreen monitor flawlessly. I played Oblivion with that card.

Good question on the being able to use an ATI and Nvidia card in different slots in the same comp. Wonder if Biker has an ATI card where he could check.

I should give Bikerdude some Kudos here for running this all down. Nice job.

I am going to drop by Fry's tomorrow to see if they have a 6800. Sometimes they have older stuff like that discounted pretty well. The ones I have seen online aren't that cheap.

Will pop in Eidos for a visit Smithpd

[bikerdude]

I am interested in this dual video card approach. If you have an SLI capable motherboard with two PCI-E X16 slots, but SLI is turned off and you don't use the SLI bridge

When your motherboard is configured for one gfx card, it works on non-sli mode and the second Pci-e clot works in x4 mode. This means you can slap another(any) video card in there.

Good question on the being able to use an ATI and Nvidia card in different slots in the same comp. Wonder if Biker has an ATI card where he could check.

im going to be picking up an Ati card today to test this.

I should give Bikerdude some Kudos here for running this all down. Nice job.

Your welcome, anything I can do to keep everyone playing the impressive T1/T2/T3 FM's that get released the better..!!!

biker

[bikerdude]

Well I tried for over 2 hurs to get this to work with an X800XL...

But the nvidia(8800GTX)/ati(X800XL) combo could possibly only work as the Ati card refuses to worl unless its in the first pci-e slot. The ati driver wont install if its in the second slot, I just get BSOD's. So I never got around to putting the 8800 in the second slot - whats the point running the 8800 in a x4 slot...?!

So atm the only way to is to have a 8800GTx 1st clot and a 5x/6x/7x nVidia card in the second slot!

biker

[smithpd]

So I never got around to putting the 8800 in the second slot - whats the point running the 8800 in a x4 slot...?!

Sorry for your frustration. There may be no point for you, but it would be quite interesting to me to know if it works at all, with the cards in either position. You could try the ATI first in slot 1, then Nvidia 2. Or, you could try to install each card in the first slot individually and then move them around. The bios may then recognize the hardware and Windows may then assign existing software to it correctly. I don't know, I am just speculating.

[bikerdude]

Hi Smithy

When i said x4 I was refering to the speed of the pci-e slot. The 1st slots runs @ x16, so just for the sack of compatability you would be running the 8800 in the 2nd slot which is 4x slower.

But I did partly attempt the swap, but the ati card did not like being put back in the 2nd slot after installing the drivers when it was in the 1st slot. All I would get is windows redetecting the card then BSODing.

So it was a non starter from the get go. If I come accross another (diffferent model) cheaper ati card I will try again. But the first card Im gonna look for is an FX5900 or FX5950-Ultra

biker

[Sneak]

I have looked around for a 5900 series card in PCI-e but have not seen any. If you find one let me know. See them around in AGP but not many. I already have an AGP version.

Nice try on the ATI. I for sure would not put my 8800 in a 4 x slot. That card needs all the octane it can get.

[bikerdude]

I have looked around for a 5900 series card in PCI-e but have not seen any. If you find one let me know. See them around in AGP but not many. I already have an AGP version.

I used to have one about 3 months ago, but got rid of it grrrr, so I will keep hunting for one. btw The 'nVidia Quadro FX 3000' is the same card, so I Imagine that could be bios'd back to a 5900.


biker

[Sneak]

Am wondering. We really don't know yet what is causing this problem. You think it is possible it might be a Shader thing? Trying to remember what version of Direct X or Direct 3D was current when T2 came out in 2000. And what Shader Model it used. We have been from Shader Model 1, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 2, 2+, 2.1 and up from there. The Shaders have about everything to do with rendering from what I understand.

Might new cards with new GPU's be changing how they impliment the Shaders? Wonder if there is any way to force the 8800 to use a particular Shader in Thief to see if that would do anything. Like make it use 1.4.

Or am I off base here. I don't technically know how they work.

[bikerdude]

Might new cards with new GPU's be changing how they impliment the Shaders? Wonder if there is any way to force the 8800 to use a particular Shader in Thief to see if that would do anything. Like make it use 1.4. Or am I off base here. I don't technically know how they work.

If thats the case, then Riva tuner would be of use as it can force a shader version

biker

Update: dosent make any difference forcing 1.1, 1.3, 1.4 or 2.0..

[Sneak]

If thats the case, then Riva tuner would be of use as it can force a shader version

biker

Update: dosent make any difference forcing 1.1, 1.3, 1.4 or 2.0..

Thanks for checking Biker, is looking more and more like a hardware thing.

[smithpd]

Thanks for checking Biker, is looking more and more like a hardware thing.

I think it must be software. That is evident in what happened with driver behavior at around 56xx. Nobody would design a video card that is hardware limited to 8-bit rendering. 24 bits (= 3 bytes), maybe. The problem is evidently that there is some lack of communication between Thief software and Nvidia software. It's too bad Nvidia will not step up to the plate.

[Sneak]

I think it must be software. That is evident in what happened with driver behavior at around 56xx. Nobody would design a video card that is hardware limited to 8-bit rendering. 24 bits (= 3 bytes), maybe. The problem is evidently that there is some lack of communication between Thief software and Nvidia software. It's too bad Nvidia will not step up to the plate.

I have posed the question about why it might be causing what it is doing over at Guru3D and Hard Forums. Not much in the way of responses. If it is a driver thing Guru could certainly tweak it. But would they for this particular game? If it was widespread over a bunch of old games there would probably be more response.

[smithpd]

I have posed the question about why it might be causing what it is doing over at Guru3D and Hard Forums. Not much in the way of responses. If it is a driver thing Guru could certainly tweak it. But would they for this particular game? If it was widespread over a bunch of old games there would probably be more response.

Tweaking means changing default settings, registry hacks, adding INF files, etc. That will probably not help. That is not the same as programming, which means going into the C code and removing the bug.