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Thread: Deus Ex 3 confirmed

  1. #126
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: Most awesome city of Poznan
    Quote Originally Posted by mothra View Post
    I just bought WIEDZMIN (polish version of theWitcher) over ebay.

    gonna play it in original polish with english subtitles.
    That's how in love I am with that game.
    Scratch that shrine, prepare to build a cathedral.

  2. #127
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    (I know you couldn't possibly have been referring to Doom 3, because that was released several months after Deadly Shadows)
    And we all know games are never developed on pre-release engines.

  3. #128
    Member
    Registered: May 2006
    Location: Idaho, U.S.A.
    Yeah, I was just going to say, wasn't VtM:Bloodlines released on the Source engine before Half-Life 2 came out?

  4. #129
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    I think everyone would agree that the circumstances of HL2's eventual release were... unique. Even then, there are loads of bugs in Bloodlines caused precisely by it being developed on an unfinished engine.

  5. #130
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    And it doesn't change ZB's main point, which is that one big problem with DX:IW and Thief 3 wasn't the engine but rather the dodgy job the programmers did of rewriting that engine. And it doesn't change that many of the assets weren't very good to begin with, which wouldn't have been different on any other engine.

  6. #131
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2006
    Location: Room 641A
    wasn't there a rough kind of consensuses that flesh was actualy ok? it was just that the game was written for an xbox (aka no memory at all) leading to small levels where a pc could have had the city map be an actually hub, and they decided why bother making water when we could just cut out swimming...

  7. #132
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    I still maintain that it was a bad engine choice. If it required that much re-writing it wasn't up to the job was it? I'm sure it would have been fine in the hands of another developer that was more capable of doing effective re-writes but it seems that it was the wrong engine at the wrong time.

    There is far more wrong with TDS than lack of swimming let me tell you what.

  8. #133
    jtr7
    Guest
    wasn't there a rough kind of consensuses that flesh was actualy ok? it was just that the game was written for an xbox (aka no memory at all) leading to small levels where a pc could have had the city map be an actually hub, and they decided why bother making water when we could just cut out swimming...
    No. The consensus was frustration, disappointment, and embarrassment. Throw in some anger. Throw in some resignation and grudging acceptance. But that was after they got excited at the possibilities, some of which were met.

  9. #134
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect View Post
    I still maintain that it was a bad engine choice.
    ...even though you have no tenable support for that claim.

  10. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    In any case, the problem was them trying to rewrite the renderer from scratch, and all the other incompetent crap they did. Ion Storm Austin just didn't have very good programmers on board for TDS and IW.
    Yeah, I don't really understand the thinking there. The entire point, I thought, of using middleware was so you didn't have to do things like writing your own rasterizer/renderer. What's really weird is how much better Splinter Cell looks than TDS/DXIW using the standard Unreal 2 engine. There was seriously something wrong with their tech if you compare what Ion was able to do with other Unreal 2 games.

  11. #136
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    ...even though you have no tenable support for that claim.
    Taking a torch into a lightsabre dual is a poor choice. Think about it for once.

  12. #137
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    An engine is only as good as what you put into it.
    Word.

    If they haven't touched unreal engine 2's renderer and uscript, everything would have been fine. Nobody would have blamed them for lack of per-pixel/dynamic shadow features in 2003/2004.

    Unreal engine does/did then support swimmable water out of the box, if you don't break it. An engine never prevents you from doing rope arrows, if you know your way around physics and some scripting...Ubisoft China can make grapple hook with the same engine but... ...nevermind...

    What's really weird is how much better Splinter Cell looks than TDS/DXIW using the standard Unreal 2 engine. There was seriously something wrong with their tech if you compare what Ion was able to do with other Unreal 2 games.
    What is more annoying that fans received very steady unreal editors for any ubisoft game, be it splinter cell or raven shield series. I mean, if only we didn't get a crippled version of it for tds...

    Back on the topic, I don't want to see any trailers or teasers or oh-I'm-so-innovative-developer interviews about dx3. Shall we have an editor for the pc version or not will be my main concern.

  13. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect View Post
    Taking a torch into a lightsabre dual is a poor choice. Think about it for once.
    I agree with ZB. The engine itself wasn't the problem, there were plenty of games using Unreal 2 tech that were able to do more than TDS/DXIW did. The first Splinter Cell and Brothers in Arms used the same engine, had the same Xbox RAM limitations, but managed to avoid the problems that plagued the Ion games.

  14. #139
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Yes, there are always many things that contribute to a situation. I feel that with a different engine that required less tweaking they may have produced a game with better gameplay.

  15. #140
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect View Post
    Taking a torch into a lightsabre dual is a poor choice. Think about it for once.
    If the choice is between a torch and nothing, then the torch is the BEST choice.

    How much longer are we going to have to attempt to hammer this through that thick skull of yours?

  16. #141
    BANNED
    Registered: Sep 2007
    Interesting read on rockpapershotgun

  17. #142
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    If the choice is between a torch and nothing, then the torch is the BEST choice.
    You're such a one dimensional thinker Clay, and a bore to boot.

  18. #143
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Just listening to the voice-over of that promotional video has already convinced me I will never buy this game.

  19. #144
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Procrastination, Australia
    as others have said, should have this guy
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJMGS7l0wT8
    Look at everyone doing backflips over a montage of important looking pictures looking like its the opening of some cheap, highschool history video. *tsk* I dunno.
    Anyway, it seems that Deus Ex sold like crap on a stick, despite most of the PC gaming internet being in love with it. This is no doubt because it played and looked like shit and ran like a dog. As with Thief, every time they make one of these and it doesn't blow the doors off in sales they want to make the next one have better graphics so every one will notice it from the start, be ahead of the curve instead of behind it this time. Invisible War was coming out at the time when everyone was trying to write in real time shadowing effects and bump maps, so they did too and it practically sank the ship (from what I can gather. Although many forces conspired against that game it seems). Bioshock's about the only LG alumnus sort of game that's managed to look current. So I'm in the camp that says, don't be at all surprised if DX3 is a "shooter".

  20. #145
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect View Post
    I feel that with a different engine that required less tweaking they may have produced a game with better gameplay.
    Yeah, and Charles Lindbergh should've used an F-22A Raptor to fly across the Atlantic instead of that flimsy one-engine airplane because everyone in Paris was really bored by the time he finally got his ass over there!

    Which engine are you talking about SubEff? What other engine at the time supported real-time shadows and ragdoll physics and all the other stuff they wanted in the game? You can't just keep saying they should've pulled another perfectly-working engine out of their asses.

  21. #146
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Back Home
    I think the main problem with what they did in making Flesh was that it was rather over-ambitious for the time. Of course, dynamic per-pixel shadows were the future and yes, I think on balance it's perhaps more exciting with them than without, but as Zylon said, Doom 3 came out after TDS, after years of work by Carmack, and I just feel Flesh was probably rushed ahead by less experienced coders trying to optimise this new tech for Xbox, and it didn't work very well.

    If they had made it now, when shaders and shadows and dynamic lighting are standard features of most games, and their target platform was 360 instead, it probably would have just worked better. But the whole thing just feels like ISA shooting above their weight.

  22. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect View Post
    Yes, there are always many things that contribute to a situation. I feel that with a different engine that required less tweaking they may have produced a game with better gameplay.
    Based on how Ion was capable of mangling a perfectly usable renderer and physics system, I'm not sure I would have had much interest in whatever shit they could have developed themselves from scratch.

  23. #148
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by henke View Post
    Which engine are you talking about SubEff? What other engine at the time supported real-time shadows and ragdoll physics and all the other stuff they wanted in the game? You can't just keep saying they should've pulled another perfectly-working engine out of their asses.
    He can and he will. Anyone who questions him on this will be accused of thinking one-dimensionally.

  24. #149
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by henke View Post
    Yeah, and Charles Lindbergh should've used an F-22A Raptor to fly across the Atlantic instead of that flimsy one-engine airplane because everyone in Paris was really bored by the time he finally got his ass over there!

    Which engine are you talking about SubEff? What other engine at the time supported real-time shadows and ragdoll physics and all the other stuff they wanted in the game? You can't just keep saying they should've pulled another perfectly-working engine out of their asses.
    Why are you guys banging on about when the game was made? It's a matter of perspective it seems. You're all hung up on which engine it should have used (if not the Unreal engine) and I'm essentially questioning if it should have been made at the time at all if you require those particular game features, have only that engine and have that particular set of programmers at hand. I'm not suggesting that they should have used a different engine that was available at the time.

    I'd like to think of it as brain surgery. If you don't have the right tools, or the right surgeon, or the right drugs all there at the same time you don't do it even if it means the patient will certainly die. There is no point messing it up into an impromptu lobotomy.

    For example; they don't make games with streaming levels in a Dungeon Master (for the Amiga) style at the moment because technologically it would require too many other compromises, be too much of a headache and likely mess up.

    Of course there were possible remedies to the TDS problems - a different engine (perhaps requiring a wait for new technology or writing an in-house engine), a different programming team or even different expectations from the game. If they'd spent less time with the useless body awareness, 3rd person view and poor City section they might have had time to focus on other aspects of the game and improve it. It's not totally the engine's fault, but for this team and this game I think it is a bad choice, and I have certainly head developers stating that they are now only make game X because the technology that their vision requires is finally here. On more than one occasion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fingernail View Post
    I think the main problem with what they did in making Flesh was that it was rather over-ambitious for the time.

    But the whole thing just feels like ISA shooting above their weight.
    This.

  25. #150
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect View Post
    Why are you guys banging on about when the game was made? It's a matter of perspective it seems. You're all hung up on which engine it should have used (if not the Unreal engine) and I'm essentially questioning if it should have been made at the time at all
    I thought that's what you were on about at first but then you said, on page 5...

    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect View Post
    I'm criticisingly they choice of engine because it was a bad choice. I'm not suggesting that they should have waited or seen into the future just that the Unreal engine was not suitable for the task given.
    And now you're saying that that's exactly what you've been on about all along? Christ, would it kill you to admit you were wrong just once? I promise we won't think any less of you just because you didn't know the exact release dates of Doom3 and TDS.

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