Production on Deus Ex 3 officially announced

[d'Spair]

I was hoping that the new team would have had more sense than that. Is this Deus Ex 3 or Project Snowblind 2?

EXACTLY what i'm thinking.

[Twist]

I understand where you guys are coming from, but I think you're way over-reacting to a bunch of misinformation.

René, Eidos's community manager for DX3, has dispelled many of the details described both in the CVG article and in this thread.

I looked closely at the scans and extracted this bit which should be more hopeful:

They're "placing a renewed emphasis on experience points and the leveling up of your character." In addition, the developers are doing their best for those who want to play it as a "more thoughtful stealth, hacking and social interaction RPG."

Lead Game Designer Jean-Francois Dugas:

"We wanted to respect the core values of Deus Ex, to mix genres and ensure that choice and consequence is at the core of the experience."

[The_Raven]

I understand where you guys are coming from, but I think you're way over-reacting to a bunch of misinformation.

René, Eidos's community manager for DX3, has dispelled many of the details described both in the CVG article and in this thread.

The short bus that is game journalists strikes again?

EDIT: Brem_X_Jones is going to kick my ass, isn't he?

[Twist]

Yeah, someone on the DX3 forum pointed out that Blue's News is running this quote:

...Changes are described that further depart from Deus Ex canon, and make the project sound more like Gears of War.

I'm sure that will sit well with hardcore Deus Ex fans who don't know any better.

[The_Raven]

It certainly didn't with me.

[vorob]

Anyone here, could you please pm me full scans of the article?

[Twist]

I have yet to see full, clean scans. But I'll PM you a link to what I've found so far (photos -- not scans -- someone took of the magazine, with an emphasis on the images not the text).

If someone finds quality scans, please PM me as well.

[Vraptor7]

I'm sure scans of the text will surface once more people get hold of the magazine, but the article will be posted at CVG for sure at some point later. At any rate, now that their preview is out all other sites that were embargoed will be able to talk about the game now, so we should see more info soon.

[Briareos H]

攻殻機動隊

[d'Spair]

René, Eidos's community manager for DX3, has dispelled many of the details described both in the CVG article and in this thread.[/B]

I don't think René has dispelled the information about stealth element being almost completely canned.

[Twist]

Stealth has not been canned. You're over-reacting as a result of either misinformation you've read somewhere or your own misinterpretation of the word "cover."

Go to page two of the DX3 forum thread discussing this article, click on the link to the flickr account with the photos from the magazine article, then read about the expanded and revamped plans for stealth.

Yes, they're relying more on cover than shadow, but the original Deus Ex never had a developed stealth gameplay mechanic based on shadows. It relied more on level design than anything.

I think the word that's completely thrown people off is "cover." It's like people see that word and suddenly have violent epileptic fits. Jeez, chill. In the context of the article, it appears that "cover" in this case does not indicate the same sort of cover we associate with Gears of War.

Sure it may ultimately prove a disappointment anyways, but if you take the time to read some accurate source material you'll learn that comparing this to Gears of War or Halo (as you did in the Thief thread) is just plain ridiculous.

In this article the folks at Eidos Montreal seem to be going out of their way to emphasize their attempts to achieve a "more thoughtful stealth, hacking and social interaction RPG."

[ZylonBane]

Y'know, the original DX had a cover system-- if you wanted to not be seen, you found some cover and hid behind it.

Anything less natural than that, which the developers feel the need to call a "system", is bound to be artificial, gamey, and stupid.

[Twist]

From what I've read, it's possible it could be too gamey. I can't see it in the parts I've read, but I've read other people refer to some kind of icon feedback system. Now that could be annoying.

But I really don't think we know enough yet and I think the word "cover" is more something the author of the article used rather than something the developers wanted to emphasize.

[Fafhrd]

VE3D is running a clarification of C&VG's story. Stealth relevant quote for the lazy

For stealth, that is another major pillar of gameplay and we do have it. The difference is that it's now cover-based rather than "shadow/light-based" as in the past games.

Which could be taken either as 'cover system' or it might just be line-of-sight based, which was really how it was in DX1. If it's a system, one could hope that it will be dynamic, as opposed to scripted 'stealth cover' spots like some weird combination of GoW and NOLF2.

[Twist]

Am I remembering the stealth mechanics of DX and IW all wrong?

I'm sorry but I don't remember light & shadow being a part of the functional stealth gameplay mechanic. The level design sometimes made it feel like light & shadow was part of it, but really it was just a line-of-sight based system... right?

Maybe I'm remembering it all wrong.

But I think René and company are just confusing the matter by specifically stating that the stealth system is no longer "shadow/light-based" when it never was light-based in the first place.

[d'Spair]

Like in Thief, you could hide in the shadows in Deus Ex. It was very immersive and very natural to the gameplay, though, of course, you couldn't succeed in sneaking as much as you can with Garrett in Thief, and that's fine.

If they mechanically take that light/shadow system away, i can't even imagine how lame it will be.

As ZB said, you could hide behind cover in Deus Ex. Moreover, you could hide behind cover even in Doom (monsters don't see you through walls, do they?). And how do you imagine this "switching to third person" mechanic? Each time, when you come close to the wall to hide around the corner, the game switches to third person? Or what?

From what I read from the article, it sounds more like there will be special zones or objects in Deus Ex 3 that will give you a hiding spot and which will trigger a switch to third person. I simply can't imagine how this can be seamlessly integrated into a classical Deus Ex gameplay.

[Aja]

They'll probably use a system like Gears of War, in which any solid object can be used for cover by pressing a button. The reason they go to third person is because it would be really disorienting to back up into a piece of cover, then pop out to shoot and pop back. Without an actual head to look around with, I can't imagine it working well. The success of this system depends on two easy things -- 1) the cover system must be universal: no gimmicky "only take cover in special areas" crap, and 2)the cover animation must be seamless. If they can manage that, it should play quite fluently. Gears, for all its flaws, has a very intuitive, non-gimmicky cover system -- Eidos Montreal would do well to use it as a template.

[Twist]

Like in Thief, you could hide in the shadows in Deus Ex. It was very immersive and very natural to the gameplay, though, of course, you couldn't succeed in sneaking as much as you can with Garrett in Thief, and that's fine.

I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I just loaded several levels in Deus Ex and played around messing with stealth & NPCs' reactions to me. I'm pretty confident light and shadow had nothing to do with the stealth system in the original Deus Ex.

It's strictly line-of-site, which is essentially what both ZylonBane and Fafhrd were describing.

The level design imparts a perception that you're skulking around in the darkness, but in fact NPCs don't really care how dark or light it is around you.

They seem to care about distance, line-of-sight (or cone-of-view) and to a lesser degree, sound.

I really think many people are giving the original Deus Ex too much credit for its stealth system. I still play Thief all the time; it's nothing like Thief.

And I still think there's some serious miscommunication going on from the developer to the media and then from the media to gamers and then from gamers in one forum to another forum.

It's a veritable clusterf$@k of misinformation right now, with hardcore old school Deus Ex fans being a little too eager to cry bloody murder over any miniscule detail of a game they know little to nothing about at this point.

For all we know the developers (or PC Zone) could be referring specifically to a combat-only cover system which may have little to do with an exploration-based stealth system, or vice versa.

[Malleus]

I'm pretty confident light and shadow had nothing to do with the stealth system in the original Deus Ex.

Try loading up the Paris Cathedral level. Just before the actual cathedral, there is a huge stairs going down to the metro station (this is where you must go after you're finished in the cathedral). Surrounding the stairs is a roughly waist high wall, which casts shadows around it. I clearly remember an MJ12 soldier walking right past me while I was crouching in that shadow. I was totally surprised because I didn't think you could hide in the dark in DX. Try that place, if that doesn't work, then I don't know ... maybe I just dreamed it...
FAKE EDIT: I just found a pic of the location (red arrow):

[inselaffe]

Does it mention anything about shadows in the stealth part of the tutorial level? I can't remember

edit - it seems shadows do play a part: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=F9p-W6sjfwM (see 9:00).

I think people just don't realise it as much because it's (rightly) not as pronounced as in thief but still of use (much like system shock 2).

[mothra]

it's a bad post form the eidos forum, using the gow/cod comparison but somehow reflects my initial thoughts about those dx3 reveals:

well, i have to say, I'm really not interested in the art style and if/how they changed this and that....

what I hear about the gamemechanics looks a lot like
gears of war/call of duty/metal gear
and those are games I generally don't like except maybe MG but it just don't fit into my deus ex universe. for me deus ex was / and is/was an adventure game with npc interaction and LESS a shooter. the inventory/stats/xp and for today's standard "clunky" weapon handling is much more appealing to me than hand-2-hand combat and moddable weapons and autoheal. I can play FEAR if I wanna jumpkick some replicas. I think just like Fallout3 it will be an interesting game, ultimately it will be decides by its STORY, but just not worthy of carrying the DeusEx / Fallout tag.

well, companies don't care, they cash in on the brand name and many younger gamers that just "heard" of it but never played it 'cause the graphics are so bad, those won't mind and pray at their altar of action.

maybe there will be a cross-over level where you meet the bionic commando.
you could bungee-jump and he could arm-swing.

I'm out.

of course I'm gonna change my opinion over time once we see gameplay videos, not some shots and cgi-trailers.

[Manwe]

Oh god I'm afraid this "cover system" is gonna be similar to what we had in rainbow six vegas. If that's the case there's no way I'm buying this game. Such a system is completely irrelevant on pc when we have a crouch key and lean keys. I want to be in control of my character goddammit !!! I don't want the game to play itself for me. Having a magical context sensitive button that does everything for me is just retarded. I mean it works well on consoles since there are not enough buttons on a gamepad for leaning/peeking and crouching but not on pc (not bashing consoles here, just saying the cover system works better on consoles, while leaning/crouching works better on pc). Anyway it's probably too early to speculate on how the final game will be, but so far I really don't like what I've read. I definitely won't get my hopes up for this one.

[ZylonBane]

The AI are definitely aware of light levels. I was just experimenting with a couple of NSF on the Liberty Island map (the ones off to the right from the dock, who talk about Gunther's augmentations). Normally, you can sneak right by them. But if you turn your light aug on, they detect you much earlier. Also, if you stand far away, turn on the light aug, and shine it toward them, they'll notice it and turn to face you. Better turn it off quick, or they'll start shooting!

[Kalit]

Am I the only one who hates this fad of FPS games going into 3rd person mode for cover (or in this case stealth)? It's called First Person for a reason. That and the auto-heal thing are the things that I don't know if I'll be able to overlook.

[Twist]

From clarifications from Eidos, the brief bits of third-person work just like they do in Chronicles of Riddick. Like someone said on the DX3 forum, I'd prefer uninterrupted first-person, but Riddick worked pretty well and Deus Ex already cuts to third-person quite a bit for dialogue, so the additional third person bits may not feel like a radical change.

Then again, it may be really immersion-breaking. We really can't tell at this point.

I'm still not convinced about the lighting issue. I really don't mean to come off as stubborn on this matter because I'm honestly not very sure of myself.

But in my own experimenting, even situations like what ZylonBane and Malleus described look and feel more about cone-of-view and activity level (turning on the light aug creates an outward activity alert detectable by the AI, just like shooting a gun).

I'm really not sure, but I still haven't seen anything that can't be explained by cone-of-view, activity-level... or crouching. Crouching seems to provide a stealth bonus, but it seems to work no matter the light level. So if you don't use any items or augs, crouch and stay still or slow and stay somewhat to the side or out of range of the AI's primary view cone, you can go undetected. Lighting doesn't appear relevant in the equation.

The developers clearly want you to feel that lighting is relevant (see the tutorial), but that's a matter of perception.

The best and only way we may be able to test this is to have someone create two small almost-identical levels where the only difference is the lighting level of a particular spot, and have both the AI and the player perform the exact same actions in each of the levels.

We also could have someone dig through the AI code and tell us if there is any kind of lighting-related alert triggers.

I know the tutorial tells you to stay out of the light, but they want you to think that so you find the environment more compelling and responsive to your actions. I don't think the mention of lighting in the tutorial indicates that the AI actually detects differences in lighting.

Again, I don't mean to be stubborn or belabor the point, I just honestly don't see lighting really being relevant in Deus Ex's AI triggers. Feel free to convince me otherwise.