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Thread: Production on Deus Ex 3 officially announced

  1. #376
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Scots Taffer View Post
    Just a common courtesy and manners thing, I don't expect ZB to get it but the moderators of the DX forum probably do.
    Oh aren't you precious.

    My understanding from lurking the Eidos forums is that Rene is essentially DX3's community manager. So yes, he does work at/with Eidos Montreal. And really, beside calling his coworkers twits, I think I've been quite levelheaded here.

    Also, I'm afraid to ask if there's leaning.

  2. #377
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2001
    Location: Dark Earth, Grey Skies
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    That's just spiffy, but you're unsurprisingly missing the point that Deus Ex isn't an FPS. It's an FPS/RPG hybrid, and the "RPG" part says that the player doesn't smegging well get infinite, free, on-demand healing. It's all part of managing limited resources to survive.
    It doesn't matter what you want to be in DX3, because we already know they're putting auto-heal in, so whatever whimiscal aspirations of resource management you believe should be in place for health are irrelevent to what will be in the game. I was merely positing a manner in which this could at least be enjoyable for people who expect more sophistication than the "Halo-Heal." More basically I'd like what Eabin said about "The Witcher," a "slow-regen" system so that when you could be better spending your time, I don't know, intereacting with the story, you don't have to "go fetch" for health packs, because outside of combat, combat-related "resource management" is just an annoying staple of the RPG moniker (you're obviously going to make sure you have full health before your next battle, so either it can refil on it's own, or you can do 10 mins of back tracking to your last medbot.)

    Otherwise, I agree that if Rene is actually here to see what the fan base thinks (especially in what looks like fairly early into the developement process) we can at least try to give constructive feedback. We're already jaded enough that hype-mongering isn't going to get him anywhere, and in the off chance that he's actually here to listen to what we think about what we'd like from the game, being an asshole is going to pretty quickly get that chance revoked.

    I too would-like-to-know-but-am-afraid-to-ask about leaning.

  3. #378
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: sup

    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    My understanding from lurking the Eidos forums is that Rene is essentially DX3's community manager.
    Oh, right. He's scum then.

  4. #379
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004

  5. #380
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCapedManX View Post
    (you're obviously going to make sure you have full health before your next battle, so either it can refil on it's own, or you can do 10 mins of back tracking to your last medbot.)
    I thought that was part of the fun. It's like having to try all the keys in your inventory one by one when trying to open a locked door in Thief. Or having to open your PDA and check the needed door code when standing in front of the keypad in Splinter Cell (and in DX too). Small stuff like these ... part of the fun, for me.

    Though in DX, a constant slow regeneration rate could've been explained in the game (idle nanites doing stuff, or whatever), but it doesn't sound plausible in DX3's context, with mechanic implants...

  6. #381
    is Best Pony
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: The magical land of Equestria
    Oh God. Universal keyrings for me thanks. There's fun and then there's tedium (Ultima VII Part I, anyone?).

  7. #382
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Location: Maritime Provinces (Canada)
    I think the main thing at work here is verisimilitude. If the game mechanics provide a decent abstraction of the real world, then it creates more of a sense of being there. Of course, the amount of abstraction that people are willing to put up with in the simulation ultimately varies with each individual. Just like with most creative endeavors, the little things really help draw the audience into the world.

  8. #383
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCapedManX View Post
    It doesn't matter what you want to be in DX3, because we already know they're putting auto-heal in, so whatever whimiscal aspirations of resource management you believe should be in place for health are irrelevent to what will be in the game.
    Look, numbskull. Right now, when the game is just starting production, is the ABSOLUTE BEST POSSIBLE TIME to bitch and moan as loudly as possible about things that we think are horrible design decisions. Your "It is what it is, suck it up!" attitude is simultaneously pathetic and loathsome.

    And no, it's not at all "obvious" that someone will enter into battle with full health every single time. It's obviously preferable, but in a game with limited resources, sometimes you just have to roll with the situation. It's more interesting that way.

  9. #384
    BR796164
    Registered: Dec 2000
    Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
    Pity that DX3 devs most likely don't visit TTLG for inspiration and hints from original DX fans.

    Although, is there a point in it? Last time certain guru asked us here for advices, it didn't turn ot too well.

    We are nothing but sheeps for them, stupid consumer masses. Sheeps they can mislead, then sell them something quite different.

  10. #385
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Location: Maritime Provinces (Canada)
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane
    And no, it's not at all "obvious" that someone will enter into battle with full health every single time. It's obviously preferable, but in a game with limited resources, sometimes you just have to roll with the situation. It's more interesting that way.
    I guess the best cinema analogy I can come up with for this is which is a more appealing character: Roger Moore era James Bond or Indiana Jones? I'm sure most people will respond with Indiana Jones. Even though the character was very over the top and unrealistic, there was a certain amount of flaws and humanity that the character possessed that made him more appealing. I was quite amused to see that the rebooted James Bond in Casino Royal was practically Indiana Jones. Hell, that movie even had a truck fight in it.

  11. #386
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2007
    Location: free koki
    Okay, so I bought the PC Zone. 6 quid. 6 fucking quid. Oh, no, pardon me, 5.99. And what the fuck is up with not putting a fucking price tag on the God damned thing? I'd have still bought it, but at least I'd have picked the correct bill from my wallet from the first go.

    Anyway, for those who haven't bought it or seen some full scans or whatnot, here's a couple of comments that I can be bothered to remember to post right now, on top of what info is already circulating around the net. Or at least I think it's on top of that, it's quite possible that the only thing this post will bring about into the world is a +1 increase to my post count. I will be posting just a couple of short snippets directly from the article in quotes - if this is not permitted, please remove them and I will attempt to paraphrase in an edit.

    Augs
    There are supposed to be "at least 20" of them, with effects in the following areas (and most likely more): Stealth, Combat, Physical Strength and Social. I'm quite curious what form Social augs would take.

    3rd person perspective
    Apparently, it is not limited only to the stealth cover system, but also extends on what was referred to as "we want you to see Adam do cool things" - more precisely, some of the available augmentations. The following passages are relevant:
    As before, you're in first-person perspective, but the action will switch to third-person when taking cover or executing special moves and abilities (see The Ultimate Warrior box for more).
    The Ultimate Warrior box presents four augs, of which the following is relevant (bold for emphasis):
    Multi-Kill
    When faced with multiple opponents, Jensen can unleash a combo of devastating martial arts moves, with the action switching to third-person.


    The World
    From what I gathered from the article, it may well be possible that Eidos Montreal are trying to pull a more self-running simulation of a world, a bit more in the direction of games like Oblivion, Gothic or GTA. Note that this is more of a vague supposition on my part, and I am most likely wrong.

    Conversations
    There's a box in the article that suggests that Eidos are working on a dialog system that may offer more than just a set of responses, but also a variable in the way said responses are given:
    By watching an NPC's body language and the manner in which they speak, you'll have to ascertain not only which response is the most effective, but the manner in which you deliver it.
    Either that, or I'm reading too much into it.

    "The Lowdown"
    As the author called it, a small box of pros and cons shares the article's first page with only a large picture of the protagonist and an "ETA: When it's done" for company.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lowdown
    + Trying to stay true to the original
    + Deep and intriguing plot
    + Open-ended and reactive world
    + Cyberpunk Renaissance art style
    - May not please hardcore fans
    In before ZylonBane


    The text below that picture reads "Warren's Spector's dog".

    Aside from that, the article is pretty well-written and made for an interesting after-lunch read. Thematically and artistically, the game seems interesting, but what I've read in regards to the game mechanics has done little nothing to alleviate concerns that appeared after the initial teaser scans popped up on the vast expanses of la toile d'araignée mondiale.

  12. #387
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Ostriig View Post
    When faced with multiple opponents, Jensen can unleash a combo of devastating martial arts moves, with the action switching to third-person.
    This isn't necessarily awful. The idea of combat computers that briefly take control over your body has existed in scifi for a long time. Whether it's cool or excruciating in-game will depend directly on how they implement it.

    Let's just say I'm not a fan of so-called "quicktime events" (aka "Dragon's Lair events").

  13. #388
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCapedManX View Post
    It doesn't matter what you want to be in DX3, because we already know they're putting auto-heal in, so whatever whimiscal aspirations of resource management you believe should be in place for health are irrelevent to what will be in the game. I was merely positing a manner in which this could at least be enjoyable for people who expect more sophistication than the "Halo-Heal."
    Correction: You think auto-heal will definitely be in the game. But who knows, maybe if there is enough negative response they might think twice about it.

    Regardless, I don't want it and there's no point pretending that I'm OK with it. I didn't like the health regen aug in DX1, but that was not a problem because I could install a different aug. If healing in DX3 is going to be little more than a waiting game, I think it will suck.

    More basically I'd like what Eabin said about "The Witcher," a "slow-regen" system so that when you could be better spending your time, I don't know, intereacting with the story, you don't have to "go fetch" for health packs, because outside of combat, combat-related "resource management" is just an annoying staple of the RPG moniker (you're obviously going to make sure you have full health before your next battle, so either it can refil on it's own, or you can do 10 mins of back tracking to your last medbot.)
    Making best use of limited resources, inventory management, skills and character development, location specific damage and healing, etc. were all very important parts of DX1 for me. If resource management is just an annoyance to you, why play hybrid FPS/RPG games?

    And more importantly, if DX3 is not going to be a hybrid FPS/RPG game, I'd rather they just go make something else rather than ruin the DX franchise the same way Bioshock ruined the SS franchise.

    Otherwise, I agree that if Rene is actually here to see what the fan base thinks (especially in what looks like fairly early into the developement process) we can at least try to give constructive feedback. We're already jaded enough that hype-mongering isn't going to get him anywhere, and in the off chance that he's actually here to listen to what we think about what we'd like from the game, being an asshole is going to pretty quickly get that chance revoked.
    Offering frank and honest opinions is not being an asshole. I don't understand why some people feel like they have to kiss the ass of anybody in the biz who pops up in a TTLG forum. I'm not saying we should be rude, but we shouldn't be guarding our opinions just because somebody might be watching.

    I don't know if the community's opinions matter to the dev team or not. If they do, and you think feature X sucks, it's better they hear that it sucks rather than offering wishy-washy "maybe you can tweak feature X this way..." comments that don't communicate any clear message. And if the community's opinions don't matter to the dev team, then who cares. There's no point in watering down our comments either way.

  14. #389
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2007
    Location: free koki
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    This isn't necessarily awful. The idea of combat computers that briefly take control over your body has existed in scifi for a long time. Whether it's cool or excruciating in-game will depend directly on how they implement it.

    Let's just say I'm not a fan of so-called "quicktime events" (aka "Dragon's Lair events").
    I don't necessarily mind that I'll be bereft of control for a couple of seconds, but I'm not too crazy about being jumped from first to third person perspective in the middle of the action. I think that what was done in the previous games, with the camera switching to third for conversations, was quite cool in that it gave a cinematic quality to these sections (just think how bland and un-dramatic Oblivion's dialog system is), but jumping me while I'm in the middle of a fight... I'm not too sure about that. Unlike the idea of "you don't like the cover system, you can just use the old-school approach" that was promised, the only way this sounds avoidable is to, you know, not take that augmentation.

    I'm not saying this will turn out bad. And I certainly hope it won't. I'm saying it has a great potential to.

    As for quicktime events, two words - God no!

  15. #390
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Location: Maritime Provinces (Canada)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ostriig
    I'm quite curious what form Social augs would take.
    "That's some heavy [breast] augmentation."

    Free drinks at bars +2.

  16. #391
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2007
    Location: free koki
    And "curious" turns to "disturbed" considering that the protagonist appears to be strictly male.

  17. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Ostriig View Post
    The Ultimate Warrior box presents four augs, of which the following is relevant (bold for emphasis):

    Multi-Kill
    When faced with multiple opponents, Jensen can unleash a combo of devastating martial arts moves, with the action switching to third-person.
    I was about to post something about how horrible this idea is, when I recalled I actually liked the way third-person perspective was implemented in Jedi Outcast/Academy, where typing combos would execute a flamboyant lightsaber maneuver. I understand these games are not as revered as the first Jedi Knight, especially JK Academy, but imho they're definitely memorable for mixing both POV without fucking up the entire experience.

    So I'd be willing to let them give it a try.*



    I'm still dead against auto-heal however, that's a terrible concept for Deus Ex. Make it an aug, and if you really care, make it a switchable one.


    *like they care about my permission

  18. #393
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Location: Maritime Provinces (Canada)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ostriig
    And "curious" turns to "disturbed" considering that the protagonist appears to be strictly male.
    Deus Ex: Tranny Delight.

  19. #394
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    when the game is just starting production, is the ABSOLUTE BEST POSSIBLE TIME to bitch and moan as loudly as possible
    I agree with you, unfortunately I'm very pessimistic about the whole issue, so I also agree with BlackCapedManX (my God... I'm a Yes man). When I read this : "the designers didn’t want people exploring levels just for health packs or having to reload to an old save game because they messed up a scenario and couldn’t advance. I know some people actually liked the exact scenario I just described but this is a decision the team made", it looks to me they are already fully aware of what we think. It's just that "we" is obviously not their target audience, so they simply don't care.

    Of course, if we can convince their target audience, which is the horde of Halo fan, that Halo was a shitty game (BTW I never played Halo, I just assume that what other people here are saying is true), then maybe we could make them change their mind. The enemy is not really the devs, they will do whatever the market wants.

    So people of TTLG, let's travel far away and preach to the world. (Call me Jesus)

  20. #395
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Location: Maritime Provinces (Canada)
    Yes, apparently the fun part of games isn't exploring your environment and learning how to make the most of it anymore.

    Papy, you aren't missing much. Halo was essentially you running head first into battle, getting a shit load of damage, running away, and repeating the whole thing for the entire game. It wasn't the worst thing in the world the first time, but it was so incredibly boring that my attempt at a second run through of the game didn't last past the opening sections. The sad thing is that this reminds me of a blog post or something from Bungie when they were working on Halo 2. The whole thing was about their time with a ex-special forces guy who was consulting for them on battle tactics, firearms, etc... The major part was how it seemed the people at Bungie were completely floored by the fact that their consultant mentioned that they almost never go backtrack for cover unless a full blown retreat is ordered. I just couldn't get over the fact that it seemed that the Bungie people thought their gameplay elements were realistic, and that that they never considered that real soldiers are always advancing towards their goal unless they're told not to.
    Last edited by The_Raven; 9th Oct 2008 at 16:39.

  21. #396
    To be fair, Halo is a decent game. It's the fanboys who are insufferable, it's clearly not the pinnacle of all things gaming they think it is. (Obviously that's Deus Ex ) Seriously though, it's just a fun shooter.
    (Kind of sucks on PC though, it's got much better handling on its native Xbox)

    Your point still stands that these fanboys are the target demographic, and their standards are pretty low.

  22. #397
    Eidos Montreal
    Registered: Oct 2008
    Location: Montréal, Québec
    I'm not a designer or producer but I do sit near them and talk to them almost every day. Since the news broke last Saturday, I've been gathering information and compiling reports which I've been distributing so that everyone knows what the community is saying.

    I understand the pessimism in terms of Marketing. I've been burned in the past too. All I can say is that Eidos Montréal has hired a gamer (me) in this community role. I bought the original Deus Ex back in the day as well as another trilogy of games which shall remain nameless, and I have said boxes at my desk right now.

    So while I'm not responsible for design decisions, I am a conduit of information between the dev team and the community, and not just the official site, but sites like TTLG. As one example, once we get our dev blog up we'll do community Q&A's with the dev team either through emailed messages or maybe even live IRC.

    The harsh criticism is okay. I'll just keep trying to inform the dev team and community about each other's issues as we move forward in development. I'll try to check this forum often but if I disappear for a few days and you need to send me a message, just do so through a PM on the official forum and I'll respond asap.

    René

  23. #398
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Location: Maritime Provinces (Canada)
    Quote Originally Posted by raph
    It's the fanboys who are insufferable, it's clearly not the pinnacle of all things gaming they think it is.
    This happens a lot with things that are heavily marketed. It is really funny that it seems to work. I just overheard a conversation here at school today about how some guy wanted to see Eagle Eye because it was a Steven Spielberg movie.

  24. #399
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Papy View Post
    Of course, if we can convince their target audience, which is the horde of Halo fan, that Halo was a shitty game (BTW I never played Halo, I just assume that what other people here are saying is true), then maybe we could make them change their mind. The enemy is not really the devs, they will do whatever the market wants.
    This touches on the central problem, the one that tripped up Invisible War and Bioshock-- developers who become convinced that they can make a fundamentally niche game design appeal to the mass market if they just make it "accessible" enough.

    It's a terminally flawed approach. To put the problem in foodie terms, it's like trying to make foie gras appealing to Joe Sixpack. You either end up with liver and ketchup (Invisible War), or.... a hamburger (Bioshock). The former represents a doomed attempt to bolt on mainstream appeal that ends up disgusting everyone, and the latter represents giving up and just giving the mass market what it wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by René View Post
    I'm not a designer or producer but I do sit near them and talk to them almost every day. Since the news broke last Saturday, I've been gathering information and compiling reports which I've been distributing so that everyone knows what the community is saying.
    It's encouraging to have you here. You really, REALLY need to impress on your powers that be that this tight-lipped approach to PR isn't doing the game any favors. People (myself included) are running around with worst-case-scenario interpretations of extraordinarily vague information. For example, if the dev team hasn't decided yet how the auto-heal will work, they need to say so. And if they've decided that it will work just like Halo... well, then they need to be fired.

  25. #400
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Location: Maritime Provinces (Canada)
    There's a lot of truth to that, ZylonBane. While I, for the most part, believe that good design can make a niche game more accessible, I'm not too sure if that means it will strike a chord with the mass market. It may be theoretically possible to make a niche title a bestseller, but it would take an incredible amount of skill and work to pull off. Hell, it is probably borderline impossible.

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