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Thread: Production on Deus Ex 3 officially announced

  1. #51
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Quote Originally Posted by f2c
    Anyhow, I like the feeling I get watching the trailer. Also, I'm in Quebec City, so I'll make sure I zip down at least once to the office and spy on these guys. Maybe I'll pretend I'm a pizza delivery guy or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by vrap
    Well according to the site they`re having an open house on December 1st, so go then. And bring back whatever you can steal.
    Oh definitely! Now you have to go, if you can at all possible, and give us all a report.
    (Be sure to get a peek at the white boards if you can).

  2. #52
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    So make CASH the clear reward.
    It's probably because of a culture difference, but I always viewed money as a way to get the reward, never as a direct reward in itself. Intrinsically, money is useless and has no value, except for the cost of its raw material. It is not, and will never be a clear and direct reward to me. For example, I always thought that giving a gift card for Christmas or as a birthday present, was really lame.

    What I think was great about an upgrade canister was I viewed it as something money just couldn't buy. It was a priceless and not just a mundane piece of equipment, it was not some mere resources, and, as it had almost no drawback at all, it was really some kind of the ultimate reward.

    Of course, we can debate if these kind of ultimate rewards, which cannot be manage by the player, are really that important in a video game like Deus Ex. The only way to be sure would be to try it. But I do know that Invisible War certainly made biomods somewhat more mundane and the result was not that great. I was far less excited about finding a biomods than finding an upgrade canister.


    Quote Originally Posted by aesir05 View Post
    Some people here have set their standards of quality so high
    Look at Deus Ex. This game had a lot of design and technical flaws. If you search past discussions you will see that everyone did agree. AI was simply not good enough, graphics were not very good, some voice acting parts were clearly amateur, some level designs were inappropriate for what the game was trying to depict... Yet, most of us still think Deus Ex was one of the best ever made.

    The truth is, for most of us, the only standard that we have is we want games that are not made with the 10 years old kid in mind. Unfortunately, it seems that this simple demand is already too much too ask.

  3. #53
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Papy View Post
    What I think was great about an upgrade canister was I viewed it as something money just couldn't buy. It was a priceless and not just a mundane piece of equipment, it was not some mere resources, and, as it had almost no drawback at all, it was really some kind of the ultimate reward.
    A lot of people play DX using hardly any augs at all, so for them the upgrade cannisters are almost useless. By making the primary reward system a general-purpose resource, the game would allow significantly enhanced player expression in their character builds.

  4. #54
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Head too far down that route, though, and you ask: why 'reward' people with 30.06 ammunition when some players never use it? Why not just make all the ammo universal, so that there's the most chance of what the player finds being useful to their playing style?

    If you try to cater to every playstyle - to make it so that every choice or reward is equally valuable to every playstyle - then you just make the choices meaningless and all the paths merge into one.

  5. #55
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Visual C++ (Hungary)
    Reward playstyles with experience points. Afterall, sneaking past a guard can be just as challanging as shooting him in the head; and it's universel enough for me.

  6. #56
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2002
    Location: Finland
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkXCE8CkNZU

    I don't recall seeing this here before.. If so, check it out. Gives me the impression that there is something much deeper inside the surface of the teaser.

  7. #57
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    Head too far down that route, though, and you ask: why 'reward' people with 30.06 ammunition when some players never use it?
    That's why the good game designers get the big bucks.

  8. #58
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    By making the primary reward system a general-purpose resource, the game would allow significantly enhanced player expression in their character builds.
    I agree, but to be honest I never viewed a game as a way to express myself. To me, a game is something I try to win, not some kind of imaginary playground where I can let my imagination go wild. This is what Oblivion was about, and the fact is I found this game to be utterly boring. To me, a game is about finding the most efficient solution with the tools I have at my disposal (and according to my own abilities as a player), not simply about doing what I feel like.

    It is of course possible to have a challenging game which offers a lot of freedom, but as I need the use of a resource to have a significant impact on the gameplay, and not merely be about cosmetics, I believe it is a dangerous thing to do. A game with too much freedom can make the system too complex, both for the developer who try to somewhat balance the game and for the player who try to know what he should choose.

    (BTW, as I don't know exactly what you have in mind, I'm not sure if what I say is relevant)

    I'll take two games I tried a few years ago. The first one was VGA Planets, the second was Stars!. Both were similar 4x PBEM with a space setting, but with the difference that VGA Planets ships were not really customizable and were really dependent upon the race of the player, while Stars! had mostly a free form design. Of the two, I think VGA Planets was the best. It did not allow as much freedom as Stars! as we had to choose from a very limited set of ship designs, and it was probably not as deep strategically, but it was also easier to pick up and, to me, more elegant. The first time I played with VGA Planets, I spent a few hours studying the rules and all my options, and I was able to come up with a "not so bad" strategy. On the other hand, the first time I played with Stars! I was just overwhelmed, I couldn't really get it, and my first try was a total failure.

    With a story based game like Deus Ex, I believe the first play is the one that really counts. To me, subsequent plays are only to appreciate details, seek perfection or play with artificial limitations just for the fun of it. It is not about playing the game, but playing with the game system. So what I wonder is how can we be sure that a system, where the player has a lot of freedom when it comes to his abilities, will not become like Stars!, and really screw up the first play because of a too high complexity? How can we make sure that success in a complex game is based on thinking and not on luck? Isn't it a dangerous thing to try for a (mainly) one-shot game?


    Anyway, it doesn't change the fact that what worries me the most about the money and free design approach is I believe we really appreciate only things we don't have at all. The people who really view freedom as a gift are generally the ones who don't have any. In fact, I described augmentation canisters as rewards, but because they were somewhat unexpected, I think the word gift is more appropriate to describe the way I view them.

    Ok, here's a simplistic way to explain what I feel...

    With the money system, I know that the object I want cost 500 credits. I play a little and I get 25 credits. Then I get another 25. The another. After some times, I am able to evaluate when I'll be able to have the reward and it's only a matter of being patient. When I finally have my 500 credits, I get the reward I want as planned, I am happy and I now think about my second one (which will unfortunately be less rewarding since it will be my second choice).

    With a "canister" system, I know nothing. I have 0 and I wonder when I'll find one. After a while I still have 0 and I still wonder when I'll finally find one. I continue playing, I still haven't found anything and I'm now wondering if I didn't miss a hidden location somewhere. When I finally find my canister, I'm not only happy, even if it was not exactly what I was hoping for, but I am also relieved I found one.

    For me, because of the fact I wasn't able to plan or expect anything, the reward with the canister system has simply more value than the same one with the money system.

  9. #59
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    That's a personal opinion though. As a counter example - in WoW I'm not too excited about the prospect of finding or being given a new weapon. What I want is to find money that then lets me buy the weapon I want.

    If you restrict the reward somewhat it gives it value, especially if (let's use cash as the example) the things you want to buy cost enough and have enough effect that the entire effort of buying, for example, an augmentation is both rewarding and, more importantly, meaningful. The ability to swap out plasmids and tonics in BioShock plus the masses of Adam you get even if you save the Little Sisters makes them much less satisfying "rewards" and gives the purchase of them little meaning.

    And this all reminds me that I have to finish DXIW at some point.

  10. #60
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Poland
    Just started playing DX again yesterday, and I already found mention of lack of public tolerance to augmentations. There's some stuff at UNATCO about how mechanically augmented agents had to sacrifice social acceptance.

  11. #61
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Papy View Post
    I agree, but to be honest I never viewed a game as a way to express myself.
    -- Stopped reading here --

  12. #62
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkXCE8CkNZU

    I don't recall seeing this here before.. If so, check it out. Gives me the impression that there is something much deeper inside the surface of the teaser.
    I loved that little bit at the end:

    'If you're not excited for DX3 because you didn't like IW, then you are a moron.'

  13. #63
    Clearinghouse
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Siberia, Russia

  14. #64
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2007
    Funny thing is - I downloaded the HD version of the trailer and the date on the voting box is gone! Haven't checked with the normal one though.

  15. #65
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Sathras View Post
    Funny thing is - I downloaded the HD version of the trailer and the date on the voting box is gone!
    Ooh, the plot thickens!

  16. #66
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: sup
    If true, sounds like it's a reaction to the "prequel" rumours going around and they're essentially trying to nip it in the bud before fan speculation/expectation goes wild and then they announce "hay guyz we're following on from IW".

  17. #67
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    I so hope this is true and planned. That would be a great piece of marketing - get all the fan boys to discuss some flash-on-the-screen images and then re-release the trailer but slightly tweaked.

  18. #68
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect View Post
    That's a personal opinion though. As a counter example - in WoW I'm not too excited about the prospect of finding or being given a new weapon. What I want is to find money that then lets me buy the weapon I want.
    Of course it's a matter of personal opinion. I found Oblivion, a game that let the player do whatever he wants, to be one of the most boring game I've ever played with. Having said that, I know a majority of people found it to be one of their favorite. I certainly won't pretend my taste is what defines what a "good" game is. It's just that I love the idea of having to adapt because some things are completely out of my control. This is where the challenge, and so the fun, is to me. When everything goes according to my own personal plans, things get boring.

    Also, I never played with WoW, but I did play my share of RPG. Personally, I always found going on a quest in order to find a strange mythical weapon some rumors are talking about was always more interesting than "go to dungeons, get gold pieces and then buy weapon in a store near you". One feel like adventure, the other really feel like work and ordinary life. I believe things money just can't buy are worth more than anything else.

    (BTW, this is not a black and white situation. I do want money and the management gameplay that goes with it, I do like to get things I want, but I don't want everything to be that way. I do want some surprises.)

  19. #69
    I am REALLY looking forward to this...

  20. #70
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: England
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    A lot of people play DX using hardly any augs at all, so for them the upgrade cannisters are almost useless. By making the primary reward system a general-purpose resource, the game would allow significantly enhanced player expression in their character builds.
    Well, even that doesn't always work. I play through with minimal augs (regeneration being the only one), and I usually end up with thousands of credits because there's never anything worthwhile to buy. In IW I do buy some stuff, since it's faster than searching around for Augs - but I still end up with loads of unused cash.

    If the skills system got changed to a progressive system (as in, the more you use a pistol, the better you are at it), cash could be exchanged for training. Something worthwhile to spend it on would really help, I think.

  21. #71
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Scots Taffer View Post
    If true, sounds like it's a reaction to the "prequel" rumours going around and they're essentially trying to nip it in the bud before fan speculation/expectation goes wild and then they announce "hay guyz we're following on from IW".
    Gawd, I hope not. Continuing IW's narrative would be a big red flashing warning sign that they don't understand a huge aspect of why IW failed.

  22. #72
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    Did it fail financially? I thought it had sold quite well.

    Even if they follow on from DXIW they could always take it in a better direction couldn't they?

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect View Post
    Did it fail financially? I thought it had sold quite well.

    Even if they follow on from DXIW they could always take it in a better direction couldn't they?
    Yup. I think so. It was the gameplay and design that made IW suck so hard, not the storyline.

  24. #74
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    That's the wonderful thing about IW-- it *all* sucked.

  25. #75
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: England
    Quote Originally Posted by failure2comply View Post
    Yup. I think so. It was the gameplay and design that made IW suck so hard, not the storyline.
    It'd be nice if you could say "Yes" or "No", actually knowing what you're talking about. The game did not sell as well as the original, but it didn't fail financially.

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