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Thread: Full interview and exclusive screens in the new issue of Edge

  1. #76
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: Near Brisbane, Australia
    That's PR for you. Developers are going to try to sell their decisions as being ok for hardcore people. That's the only sort of publicity that matters at this early stage.

    But the developers are employed to make a game that makes ROI, using their best professional opinion about what decisions will do. Now we've all had plenty of arguments about whether the DX formula is profitable in todays market. That's irrelevant to my point. The only point I want to make is that being a massive DX fan doesn't necesarily lead to making DX3 just like DX.

    That doesn't mean that being a fan of the original won't come out in some ways ... and we've heard some exciting things ... but it's not going to stop them from trying to replace game mechanics in DX with comparable mechanics that they obviously hope will make more sense to a wider audience (line of sight stealth, cover system, etc).

    So I don't believe there is any disconnect. Just developers trying their level best to make and market a modern day triple AAA sequel to DX.

  2. #77
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by Ostriig View Post
    Yes, the initial fights. My point was that sooner or later, you do have to confront these characters, though it's now clear I was wrong about having to kill Gunther and Simons.
    ...which still doesn't have anything to do with the argument that they were typical boss fights. All I can say is that Warren Spector himself has stated that one of the intentional design principles behind Deus Ex is to allow players to sidestep or work around many of the apparent combat aspects of the game, and to avoid directly rewarding players for killing human beings.

    Yes, its probably true that Anna Navarre was intended to actually die (although I would argue that the code that keeps Gunther from mentioning avenging her death implies otherwise), but even then she can be killed by words, and that is not by any means cliche in videogames.

  3. #78
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2007
    Location: free koki
    Quote Originally Posted by Silkworm View Post
    ...which still doesn't have anything to do with the argument that they were typical boss fights.
    Which is an argument that, once again, I never made. I am well aware of how very different Deus Ex's implementation is, all I am stating is that at their core, these encounters were still based around the concept of "boss fights".

  4. #79
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2008
    In as much as I guess if you were forced to call them ANYTHING, 'boss fights' is as good a choice as any. "Significant encounter" is slightly closer to the truth, maybe.

    I mean, technically you could call the fight with Manderley a boss fight (he is, after all, your actual boss). Of course, that one's optional, but the concept amused me.

    So yes: you could say DX has boss fights, but as you note, they're clearly not boss fights in the traditional sense. For a start, they're largely avoidable (not always trivially, mind you), also, they don't 'require NPC to die to open door to continue' or anything, and more importantly: in keeping with the 'keep it largely realistic' ethos, they're not actually very tough. They might be augmented people, and certainly tougher than generic_MJ12troop_09, but they're still people. Fling a LAM at any of them and they...get blown up. Job done. Shoot them in the face with a clip of ammo from almost any gun (alright, not the PS20) and they die.

    And IW did the same, which was great. How many other games allow you to 'accidentally' kill the two leaders of the illuminati with a single mis-aimed grenade?

    So when the devs suggest they're implementing 'boss fights', it sort of suggests that they don't consider the original games to contain any real boss fights. Which means DX3 might have super-tough flying missile-launching three-stages-of-destruction bosses.

    And mechanically augmented ones, no less.

    Which is worrisome.

  5. #80
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Poland
    By the way, René posted his boss comment once again, in a slightly modified form:

    Quote Originally Posted by René
    Deus Ex 1 had boss fights. Walton Simons, Gunther Hermann, etc. They just weren't the Zelda "hit the boss in the eye three times to kill it" kind of boss fight, and neither is Deus Ex 3's.
    Though I'm not sure there's a point in me even posting this, since it's like talking to a brick wall. It's like "No Transgenics Allowed" or something.

  6. #81
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by DDL View Post
    So yes: you could say DX has boss fights, but as you note, they're clearly not boss fights in the traditional sense. For a start, they're largely avoidable (not always trivially, mind you), also, they don't 'require NPC to die to open door to continue' or anything
    Except for that one that does.

    And IW did the same, which was great. How many other games allow you to 'accidentally' kill the two leaders of the illuminati with a single mis-aimed grenade?
    More often than not, those two idiots got killed by the death of their own poison-gas-spewing troops.
    Last edited by ZylonBane; 13th Nov 2008 at 15:05.

  7. #82
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    And in this case, the fan viewpoints can't simply be dismissed as nostalgia, because we're still playing the game.
    I think nostalgia can be a factor in some circumstances, but I can agree with the spirit of what you said. I don't think a movie studio could get away with saying this about a classic movie. No one is going say Kurosawa's techniques aren't important to directors today and fans calling for it are just blinded by nostalgia.

    I think that way of thinking should go into game making, too. There are things that contribute to good games and things that don't, and like all great classics, Deus Ex should be a tome of lessons of things that were done right. Update the technology and sensibility, of course, but some lessons are meant to last.

  8. #83
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2007
    Location: free koki
    Quote Originally Posted by DDL View Post
    So when the devs suggest they're implementing 'boss fights', it sort of suggests that they don't consider the original games to contain any real boss fights. Which means DX3 might have super-tough flying missile-launching three-stages-of-destruction bosses.

    And mechanically augmented ones, no less.

    Which is worrisome.
    I think that's the general idea that got mine and most other's buttocks in a boss-fights-related cringe. Hopefully, van Hellsing's new bit of René quote below your post is accurate in suggesting that's not the case, and Dugas simply... misspoke.

  9. #84
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    Except for that one that does.
    Hahaha oops, yeah: point taken.

    Though that only happens if you don't kill her on the plane*, or at the subway station (or even through the window in the MJ12 cells, if you exploit the crappy coding).

    *I did this on my first playthrough kinda just to see if I could and the fact that I was permitted to do so pretty much made me fall in love with the game.

  10. #85
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by Ostriig View Post
    Which is an argument that, once again, I never made. I am well aware of how very different Deus Ex's implementation is, all I am stating is that at their core, these encounters were still based around the concept of "boss fights".
    ???

    Yeah that's pretty much exactly what we were saying, and I said that the brilliance of Deus Ex is how well the boss fights are woven into the story such that they don't feel like arcade-like boss fights. If you agree why did you object?
    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    I think nostalgia can be a factor in some circumstances, but I can agree with the spirit of what you said. I don't think a movie studio could get away with saying this about a classic movie. No one is going say Kurosawa's techniques aren't important to directors today and fans calling for it are just blinded by nostalgia.

    I think that way of thinking should go into game making, too. There are things that contribute to good games and things that don't, and like all great classics, Deus Ex should be a tome of lessons of things that were done right. Update the technology and sensibility, of course, but some lessons are meant to last.
    ^^^Perhaps the best statement made about Deus Ex on this forum ever. Well said.

  11. #86
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Location: Maritime Provinces (Canada)
    "We felt that Citizen Kane wasn't exciting enough and too slow in parts. We definitely intent to improve on this with our follow-up to the classic film titled Michael Bay Presents: Citizen Kane 2: Rosebud's Revenge."
    Last edited by The_Raven; 14th Nov 2008 at 06:20.

  12. #87
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Poland
    Except Deus Ex wasn't Citizen Kane, and Spector isn't Kurosawa.

  13. #88
    I'd pay to see that flick

  14. #89
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2008
    Except Deus Ex wasn't Citizen Kane, and Spector isn't Kurosawa.
    And that makes no difference, or sense, whatsoever.

    Unless you're suggesting that films and games should be treated entirely differently? Or that there's a threshold for 'greatness' above which you're unimpeachable and below which, even if only slightly, you're fair game for being ripped apart and rehashed badly?

    If you want a slightly better analogy, it's more like a citizen kane prequel, in which we see rosebud, the 4wes0me neo-renaissance rocket-scooter.

  15. #90
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2007
    Location: free koki
    Quote Originally Posted by Silkworm View Post
    ???

    Yeah that's pretty much exactly what we were saying, and I said that the brilliance of Deus Ex is how well the boss fights are woven into the story such that they don't feel like arcade-like boss fights. If you agree why did you object?
    Huh? When did I object to that? I just backtracked a bit through my posts in this thread and I can't figure out which one might've given off that vibe.

  16. #91
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Location: Maritime Provinces (Canada)
    Quote Originally Posted by raph View Post
    I'd pay to see that flick
    Be careful what you wish for.

  17. #92
    is Best Pony
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: The magical land of Equestria
    Quote Originally Posted by DDL View Post
    If you want a slightly better analogy, it's more like a citizen kane prequel, in which we see rosebud, the 4wes0me neo-renaissance rocket-scooter.
    I'd pay to see that flick.

  18. #93
    New Member
    Registered: May 2006
    Sorry, I haven't read through the entire thread, but in response to the 'memorable moments' issue everyone is bringing up:

    Part of the awesome strength of DX1's plot unfolding, was the many subtle nuances that you may have missed the first time around, the small details in dialogue, in games that had MUCH BIGGER IMPLICATIONS in a real sense than just plot development.
    It was kind of like macrocosm...
    Think Icarus, the Echelon system, Everett and DeBeers, the engineering of the men in black, the small details about the NSA...
    Small details that made you THINK beyond the game for a moment, small things that connected the authoritarian dystopia hidden under the curtain in Deus Ex with the real world.
    Sure, some of the Illuminati things were a little over the top... ie tracer tong counting the sides on the bolts etc ( haha, total Adam West detective stylings )
    But there was so much depth in the plot's heavy implications that it didn't even really have to have as many crescendos as other games. Things like the powerplay of Simons and Page, and Simon being appointed to FEMA made you start thinking, which took the place of unsubtle, in your face plot twists... It's like the difference between a good movie and a bad one.

    Sure, a few plot twists and turns wouldn't go astray... DX1 actually started to become a little linear by the time you left Hong Kong anyway... But I just hope that the developers realize where DX1's strength of plot was, it was in the minor details, always.

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