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Thread: Big Sisters in BS2? You heard it here first..maybe...

  1. #76
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakoob View Post
    shouldn't the point of a moral choice and tough decision come more from the "is this right? am I a horrible person?"
    Video games are kind of... not real. So the only way to have a morally tough decision is with the player using analogies and his own imagination. Unfortunately, I think the artistic choices of BioShock were too surreal to allow most player to do that. I'd venture they realized it with their focus groups and decided to salvage the idea of a moral decision with the simplistic and in-your-face concept we know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect View Post
    No one likes escort missions.
    I'll play devil's advocate... This doesn't look like an escort mission, but more like an area protection mission while voluntarily choosing to do something. It means it has the potential to turn into a good tactical game (draw the body to a good location, setup your traps and turrets, block passageways... and then send your little sister). If the environment is complex enough, it could be fun. (Hey! I can dream!)
    Last edited by Papy; 18th Mar 2009 at 16:15.

  2. #77
    Taking a break
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Quote Originally Posted by Papy View Post
    Unfortunately, I think the artistic choices of BioShock was too surreal to allow most player to do that.
    Yeah, with Little Sisters looking like diseased gremlins running around with gigantic syringes it was quite hard to feel any empathy for them.

  3. #78
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    Part of the problem may also be that every one of them looks the same - they have no life story to tell. Designers tried to overcome this with the Mariska Lutz and Masha logs, but that didn't work for me

  4. #79
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by EvaUnit02 View Post
    Ico?
    Ico is the exception that proves the rule. Escort missions suck. In 99% of the cases.

  5. #80
    Member
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: I can't find myself
    This just seems like an excuse for them to not bother re-doing the AI.

    'You didn't think it made sense for Splicers to attack you on sight all the time? NOW IT DOES!'

    That small amount of optimism created by the rumours that 2k Marin split from Boston because they disagreed with Levine's design decisions has been utterly snuffed out. Way to go.

  6. #81
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Koki View Post
    Yeah, with Little Sisters looking like diseased gremlins running around with gigantic syringes it was quite hard to feel any empathy for them.
    It's a shame. The first videos showed Little Sisters as actual people, not monsters. But of course, getting it past the conservative media watchdogs required all kinds of screwing around with the concept...

    Quote Originally Posted by henke View Post
    Ico is the exception that proves the rule. Escort missions suck. In 99% of the cases.
    Nitpick- prove, as in proving grounds, meaning to test. The exception breaks the rule.

  7. #82
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland

    HMMMMMMM

    I did some research and it turns out you're right! Allow me to rephrase. Escort missions suck except when they don't suck.

  8. #83
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    That's weird... The saying also exists in German, but there it's definitely "proves" in the sense of "confirms". Would be interesting to see how this has developed linguistically and across languages/nations/cultures...

  9. #84
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    In French, the word is "confirme".

    Anyway, even if I know it's not the original meaning of the saying, I like to think it means an exception confirm the fact a rule exists (as in "generally accepted"), instead of meaning that an exception proves the rule is true. It makes more sense to me

  10. #85
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    I'm thinking - anyone sees any connection of the previous Sea of dreams trailer with the current news? I see none.

    So was the trailer just meant to raise interest in the second Bioshock, or was there a different concept previously, replaced by this current one? In any case one Czech game server brings us the news that the Sea of dreams codename was removed from the name of the game.

  11. #86
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    I took the teaser film to be evocative and atmospheric rather than a literal representation of the game's plot - which is fair enough, I think, if done well.

  12. #87
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    Good point, I guess.

  13. #88
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: The City
    Quote Originally Posted by Volca View Post
    Call me faithless, but I don't think it's a good idea to base the second game on Big Daddies and little sisters at all. I don't get it - why the concept survived? Yes, those are aspects that make the game easy to remember, and it can even attract teenagers, but that's it. In my opinion it was flawed to even introduce the protector/gatherer concept - it may sound cool but it caused the experience quite surreal and child-story like in my eyes - but maybe that's just the cuteness finish. I understand the original idea was to come with a concept that forces one to manage resources. There are other ways around that though.
    It's a gimmick. They're icons of the (now) series, so with nowhere else to go with the plot, they'll focus an entire game around the one aspect of the game critics harped on the most.

    But yeah, I never understood moral choices in games because inevitably I'll just choose the choice that most benefits me.

    And what the fuck is with the Big Sister? What practical purpose does that diving suit offer? It has fucking PAULDRONS for gods sake. How does that serve any purpose whatsoever underwater. Why couldn't women just use the male diving suit? I mean god, their boobs couldn't fit into the huge fucking thing?

  14. #89
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Ombrenuit View Post
    I never understood moral choices in games because inevitably I'll just choose the choice that most benefits me.
    Unless you mean you approach all games from a clear analytical point of view and completely disregard any emotional response from stories or fictitious situations presented, choosing only what benefits you the most is a common system for defining the moral value of a choice. A moral choice is not choosing if you'll do "good" or "bad", as defined by whatever you consider as an authority, but defining yourself what is the (emotionally) "good" thing to do depending on the situation.

    As an example of choices due to moral considerations, I can say that, with Deus Ex, I was happy to kill Sandra's pimp. I knew it could be dangerous (read : annoying because I would have had to restart the level if my character died), I knew it probably wouldn't benefit me in any way, but I felt it was the right thing to do. Under the presented situation, killing that bastard felt good. Same thing with the two guys who killed the homeless person (on the basketball court in hell's Kitchen). I felt bad for not helping him the first time I played, so you can be sure I always saved him after that. And of course, on a more general note, after The Statue of Liberty mission, I was trying to avoid casualties as much as possible as I wasn't sure anymore of anything. It's only with MJ12 soldiers that I restarted to be trigger happy.

    BTW, I understand why the little sisters didn't provoke an emotional response from a lot of people, but they did for me (the fact that I'm an older player may have helped). For me, because of the way it was presented in the game, killing a little sister was not really an option because of my moral system. And when I reached Tenenbaum's safe house, when I saw those little girls I saved (this is how I interpreted it), it was probably the most emotional moment I had in any video games.

  15. #90
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    I understand LS and BD are a "Selling point" of the series now, nothing likely to be removed.

    Still, the resource management didn't really work in BS1 - either you gain more from harvesting or will get nearly the same amount of Adam later through gifts. So the choice is not resource management based. It will be based on my response to the game's weak emotional/moral stimuli.

    Maybe it would make much more sense if the concept was not cut in half. Splicers need Adam yet I didn't see the ecology force them get any. I saw mindless attacking AI. If there was "me or them" maybe there would be another attribute added to the choice - either them harvesting the LS or me saving her.

    Edit: Maybe the lack of resource gain on the dark path is just a result of political correctness of the authors. I would not be surprised if it was.

  16. #91
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by Aja View Post
    It was a good idea that was poorly implemented.
    I completely agree. There was so much potential in making the character become a Big Daddy from both a gameplay and story perspective. They could have introduced eeire underwater sections, visceral melee combat and of course give you a giant drill for a hand. It could have a been a great change of pace in a game that was compelely lacking in changes of pace but instead you simply put on a suit and it's business as usual, not to mention the fact that the transformation us such a non-event (and unlike a real BD compelely reversable) that it completely robs it of any emotional weight.

    I also think that escort missions in this context could actually work. Unlike other games it's not like these are plot important characters that absolutely need to survive and hence you fail the game if they die. They could also implement some kind of carrying/pickup mechanic where you could get the LS to climb on your back or you could grab her and put her someone safe. Edit: Just read the preview and it does just look like it's going to be scripted attacks rather than a more 'organic' experience which is pretty shitty.

    That said I'm really unsure how they could make a whole game based the BD concept. The thought of a BD going around completely objectives, picking up logs, weapons etc seems, well, completely stupid.
    Last edited by Angel Dust; 25th Mar 2009 at 02:28.

  17. #92
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: sup
    would you kindly not ask the game designers difficult questions

  18. #93
    is Best Pony
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: The magical land of Equestria
    Very good, Scots.

  19. #94
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: The City
    Quote Originally Posted by Papy View Post
    Unless you mean you approach all games from a clear analytical point of view and completely disregard any emotional response from stories or fictitious situations presented, choosing only what benefits you the most is a common system for defining the moral value of a choice. A moral choice is not choosing if you'll do "good" or "bad", as defined by whatever you consider as an authority, but defining yourself what is the (emotionally) "good" thing to do depending on the situation.
    I'll admit that I do make moral choices in heavily story-driven games, especially table-top RPGS because the role-play is 90% of the fun. But I played Bioshock as a shooter, and therefore, purely for entertainment. The story didn't really grip me nor immerse me, so I didn't really care much about the world nor the characters.

    And I find it curious that you said that the moral choices seemed to have more weight on you as you're older. For me, with video games, I feel like the more I get older, the harder it is to get immersed in the game. Back in the day, I could play a completely lifeless and flat game like pokemon on a handheld with no color and feel like I was traversing a very vibrant and tangible world.

  20. #95
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Ombrenuit View Post
    And I find it curious that you said that the moral choices seemed to have more weight on you as you're older. For me, with video games, I feel like the more I get older, the harder it is to get immersed in the game.
    No, I meant being older made it easier for me to have an emotional response from Little Sisters animations and voice (BTW, I played the game in French which, from my point of view, had significantly better Little Sisters voices). I'm at an age where I begin to regret not having children. I guess I have an unfulfilled need to protect. So, once I was able to somehow get over all the flaws of the game and get into the story, "saving" those Little Sisters was natural for me. I simply saw what I wanted to see.

    As to how I was able to get into the story, as I said many times, it was playing with Vita Chambers deactivated and no save (except for the automatic saves between when changing levels). Playing this way made BioShock a difficult game. The result was, instead of looking at all the flaws of the game, my mind was busy thinking about how to survive. It's the old magician trick who is moving his right hand so no one watches the left hand.

    Having said that, BioShock is not a repayable game. I tried it and there was very little emotion left. So if you already played it with Vita Chambers, I guess the game is simply ruined for you.

  21. #96
    Clearinghouse
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Siberia, Russia

    The Sisters


  22. #97
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2007
    Location: free koki
    It's not really concept art for Bioshock 2 proper, it's more of an art project based on Bioshock.

  23. #98
    PC Gamering Smartey Man
    I <3 consoles and gamepads

    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: New Zealand
    Ah, Jhonen Vasquez. Invader Zim was awesome, fuck Nickelodeon for cancelling it.

  24. #99
    Clearinghouse
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Siberia, Russia
    Thanks for the link, Ostriig.

  25. #100
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2007
    Location: free koki
    No problem!

    As for how this would reflect on the Bioshock franchise, I've gotta admit, as far as publicity stunts go this might turn out to be pretty good.
    Last edited by Ostriig; 19th Jul 2009 at 23:38. Reason: I'm tired

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