The petition for Thief 1&2 source publication

[Maddermadcat]

[the Dark Mod has] for all intents and purposes replaced Thief

Horseshit.

making the likelihood of any future titles like Th1ef4 less likely to succede.

More horseshit.

[New Horizon]

Horseshit.


More horseshit.

Well, that goes without saying. I don't think there is any need to get upset about it.

TDM is not a replacement. The only way we could do that is if we were to somehow track down every single copy of the game ever produced and strike it from existence completely. Then remove every single copy from every hard drive. Then we would need to destroy every fan mission and every backup in the world. Then we would have to erase Thief from the memory of every Thief fan and then....well, then nobody would know what Thief was, nor would they likely care what TDM was. TDM couldn't have existed without Thief.

It's an extension, not a replacement.

[jtr7]

Damn straight, it's a loving continuation and addition to a growing family.

[Thelvyn]

Well, that goes without saying. I don't think there is any need to get upset about it.

TDM is not a replacement. The only way we could do that is if we were to somehow track down every single copy of the game ever produced and strike it from existence completely. Then remove every single copy from every hard drive. Then we would need to destroy every fan mission and every backup in the world. Then we would have to erase Thief from the memory of every Thief fan and then....well, then nobody would know what Thief was, nor would they likely care what TDM was. TDM couldn't have existed without Thief.

It's an extension, not a replacement.

I thought it was pretty clear what I meant. Your suggestion to the contrary is absurd.
It defies belief that you can even suggest I meant anything remotely like that bullshit you just spewed.

My entire comment was centered on the consequences of illegally receiving the source code and the likely results if it was obtained in this manner.

[demagogue]

If anything is going to happen, I am sure it's all been thought out in advance, and anyway there's no sense in fishing for drama. Be cool and we'll see what happens.

[New Horizon]

I thought it was pretty clear what I meant.

Well, I guess it wasn't very clear to Maddermadcat, to whom my response was directed. I was merely addressing the points that Madder had focused on. I'll keep my absurd comments to myself from now on. I don't care to be bitched at for stating a valid point about a project I'm personally involved with.

[Maddermadcat]

My entire comment was centered on the consequences of illegally receiving the source code and the likely results if it was obtained in this manner.

I'm not entirely sure how the idea of the Dark Mod replacing Thief entirely ties into your hypothetical scenario. At first glance it seemed as though you were stating your view of TDM's potential impact on Thi4f's success. If you meant that eidos/square enix/their lawyer posse would get paranoid and hold that view, you could have made it clearer.

IIRC the Thi4f devs are well aware of the Dark Mod and have played it. If they haven't pursued legal action yet I doubt they will in the future. Plus, I know the TDM team was very careful in avoiding copyright infringement.

[Thelvyn]

Well, I guess it wasn't very clear to Maddermadcat, to whom my response was directed. I was merely addressing the points that Madder had focused on. I'll keep my absurd comments to myself from now on. I don't care to be bitched at for stating a valid point about a project I'm personally involved with.

I never meant to discredit or devalue what you or anyone else on the Darkmod team has done.
I appreciate the work you have done and continue to do.
But deleting from hard drives and all that stuff ? Really ?
How could anyone take that seriously ?
Sorry if I offended you but it just seemed so absurd.

I'm not entirely sure how the idea of the Dark Mod replacing Thief entirely ties into your hypothetical scenario. At first glance it seemed as though you were stating your view of TDM's potential impact on Thi4f's success. If you meant that eidos/square enix/their lawyer posse would get paranoid and hold that view, you could have made it clearer.

IIRC the Thi4f devs are well aware of the Dark Mod and have played it. If they haven't pursued legal action yet I doubt they will in the future. Plus, I know the TDM team was very careful in avoiding copyright infringement.

So apparently it wasn't clear enough what I meant sigh.
I mean that just because the Darkmod has been left alone till now doesn't necessarily mean they will continue to do so in the future.
The thought being that IF the source code was obtained illegally that it might push them to rethink their position on the Darkmod. Just because they implied they might be willing to release the code does not mean they intended to follow through with it.

As far as replacing thief I certainly didn't mean it the way you have described. Eventually it might be impossible to play on modern machines though at which point the Darkmod will still work most likely. It is already impacting the FM's that are being made. More and more will be made for the Darkmod as time goes on.
Its a natural progression, thief4 will have be really kickass to take its place. The name alone suggests that is unlikely.

Most likely it will be another thief3 which most of the community will soundly reject and play the Darkmod instead.
You have made it entirely too easy(A good thing!) to make Fm's for the Darkmod for people to want to go to another editor without compelling reasons.

Thats how microsoft gained its dominance, they made their programming environment easy to use, the programmers came and the masses followed.
Thats what your doing with DarkRadiant.

[New Horizon]

But deleting from hard drives and all that stuff ? Really ?
How could anyone take that seriously ?

lol
It wasn't meant to be taken seriously. It was a joke. I was replying to Maddermadcat who had taken your post to mean that TDM would somehow replace Thief. I just took it to a ridiculous level. All the same, none of it was worht getting worked up about.

[MoroseTroll]

It seems to me that Eidos doesn't hear us . What do you think, guys, about to start a similar topic on the Eidos forums?

[jtr7]

The problem is, the people who need to know already do, except perhaps René's replacement. A new thread isn't going to help us at this time.

[MoroseTroll]

Ok. So what exactly are we waiting for?

[jtr7]

I was hoping you already would've been contacted by Keir when he temporarily took over for René--I guess that never happened...lovely--but now, we're frikkin' waiting for René's replacement. They keep saying we'll meet him "soon" but I'm sick of hearing that word from these people. The guy was hired weeks ago. I'm not going to be happy at all if he's not familiar with our petition, or all of René's cautious promises and the support he gave us before his workload doubled. I don't want to ruin what tenuous relationship we have with EM already, by getting aggressive and demanding and obliging them to entitle me.

[MoroseTroll]

I've contacted Keir several times several weeks ago. He told me the same thing as René did: "You just wait. They (higher-ups) are thinking."

[Volca]

On that matter - I can't imagine how hard it has to be to be a community guy - I guess we can't really blame Rene for leaving EM. Is the situation with the new person the same, or worse, perhaps?

We have to remain patient I guess - being aggressive or even impatient could be destructive to the relationship. Perhaps we could explain what positive effect the petition effort would have to them? I mean publicity all over the frakkin' internet

[jtr7]

I've contacted Keir several times several weeks ago. He told me the same thing as René did: "You just wait. They (higher-ups) are thinking."

Well good, then. We are exactly where we should be under the circumstances. We have no choice but to wait, lest we go too far in our desperation in this vacuum. I wish I would've known that's what Keir said, let alone that he replied.



@Volca: Agreed.

[242]

"They (higher-ups) are thinking."

Good to know, but what about they're thinking is still unknown.

[Brian The Dog]

Whether Garrett should have rocket launchers in Thief 4

If they're "thinking", then it may mean something to do with IP, since the engine is pretty much the same for System Shock II and Thief 2, and they're published by different companies. It may be that Eidos are happy, but they want to check with EA first. Of course, this is assuming they have it, which we have no evidence of.

I agree with Volca & jtr, pushing the issue with anyone except the new community relations person (to make sure they know about it) would be highly counter-productive, I would have thought.

[MoroseTroll]

242: I wish I could be a telepathist...

Brian The Dog: Just look at the id Tech 1&2&3 (a.k.a. Quake 1&2&3 Engines) - these ones has been used in tens of different games, but, hey, id Software have published their sources in 1999, 2001 and 2005, and no one of licensees have said: what the heck! So why should Eidos be afraid of misterious System Shock 2 "issue?" IMO, Electronic Arts have forgotten SS2 many years ago - just try to find this game in its database in order to get some support, and you will fail.
What's the problem to publish the source of two old games from the previous millennium (Thief 1&2)? Their graphics level is equal to Quake 1&2. Who will be harmed because of this? No one, I guess.

[Brian The Dog]

I guess the difference is that ID are both the developer and the publisher in Quake III's case. But I agree, it wouldn't hurt anyone to release Thief 1 & 22's engine source - you can't play the game without the stock resources, so it wouldn't damage sales.

EA definitely haven't forgotten about System Shock II, even if they don't sell it. It's the most requested game on GOG, for instance, so even if they wanted to forget it, I'm guessing various digital distribution companies would keep reminding them as they'd like to sell it.

[jtr7]

242: I wish I could be a telepathist...

Brian The Dog: Just look at the id Tech 1&2&3 (a.k.a. Quake 1&2&3 Engines) - these ones has been used in tens of different games, but, hey, id Software have published their sources in 1999, 2001 and 2005, and no one of licensees have said: what the heck! So why should Eidos be afraid of misterious System Shock 2 "issue?" IMO, Electronic Arts have forgotten SS2 many years ago - just try to find this game in its database in order to get some support, and you will fail.
What's the problem to publish the source of two old games from the previous millennium (Thief 1&2)? Their graphics level is equal to Quake 1&2. Who will be harmed because of this? No one, I guess.

That's not how copyrights work. It's wishful thinking. The wish is understandable, but still based in as much fantasy as reality. Projects have been shut down, after years of work was put into them, and it's really not worth the risk. Let's do it the right way and stop hammering people who are in no position of authority to make the big decision that we are, in fact, now waiting for.

[Cobak]

Agreed about the need for patience.

We've done the leg work and asked all the different people we could and brought it up with those in contact with the higher-ups and made a petition.

All there is to do now is wait, so let's do that.

[MoroseTroll]

Ok. Let's wait for the new guy. BTW, does anybody know his name?

[*Zaccheus*]

I've contacted Keir several times several weeks ago. He told me the same thing as René did: "You just wait. They (higher-ups) are thinking."

At least things are still in motion.

[jtr7]

Yep. EM is really crunching right now. E3 was just the first of the big summer exhibitions for them.