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Thread: The Dark Mod released!!

  1. #751
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: cesspool
    Quote Originally Posted by New Horizon View Post
    Aside from that, it would be illegal and violate copyright...as I said before. We would really appreciate it if people didn't do something like that, as there is no guarantee it wouldn't have negative consequences for us.
    Perhaps asking Eidos/SE about the matter could bring allowance...

  2. #752
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Corvallis, Oregon
    Quote Originally Posted by 2Dark View Post
    Negative
    Mythos - it is unfortunate this is a mod and there is no way of importing Thief(tm+ip+lawyers)
    There is no rich, significant and substantial mythology and indeed the mod lacks "justification" of the setting. But I guess there will be alternate settings and also "implied" thief fm's with no direct mention of thief-copyrighted material.
    I brought this up a few years ago when I first joined the mod. Here's my back story behind "Farrell":

    Farrell was a former assassin who changed his ways when one contracted killing involved a family (ala Bourne Identity) but his conscience got the better of him when faced with the family's mother and son. At that moment his guilty conscience from his past deeds kicked in and he faltered but his contractor had a backup plan. The contractor hired another assassin just in case and this other assassin fired two arrows and killed the mother and son, and before the other assassin could kill Farrell, Farrell threw a dagger into the other assassin's heart.

    From that moment on Farrell went to find out who hired him to teach the contractor a lesson. In the meantime he uses his assassin skills (silent but deadly, but not skilled with combat) for thieving to keep money in his wallet all the while he seeks the contractor.

    It turns out the contractor is not merely one person but a whole organization. A very rich organization . . .

  3. #753
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by 242 View Post
    Perhaps asking Eidos/SE about the matter could bring allowance...
    Unlikely, and we wouldn't take the risk.

  4. #754
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by piln View Post
    1-on-1 difficulty can (and IMO should) be toned down
    I'm not sure I'd take it quite that far. I can beat most NPCs in a one-on-one fight without it feeling unfair. My concern is more about losing because of errors in code rather than errors in judgment. Getting hit despite having the correct block, for instance, or trading blows with an enemy when you'd expect to interrupt their attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishtvan View Post
    I'm not sure that would fix the problem if they got closer to you, or ran in place right in front of you, couldn't you still wait until they dropped the parry and hit them?
    You're right. I played around with it in the arena, and it seems the only difference (between this and an enemy who is just standing there blocking) is that the AI is usually close enough to immediately hit you right back. Either way, it's not the ideal solution. I'll continue to think about it, though, as there must be a way to solve this riddle...

  5. #755
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: Near Brisbane, Australia
    Ok, I finally got around to giving this a go over the weekend.

    For a little background: so far I've mucked around in the tutorial a little bit, but didn't spend much time there. I then played The Crown of Penitence. I played on expert but didn't bother with any playstyle restrictions . I made liberal use of the blackjack, and didn't attempt to remain completely undetected.


    General comments:

    1) You got me to stay up several hours past the time I had wanted to go to bed. Bastards.

    2) I assume your goal was to make a modern (and slightly more hardcore) T1/2, in which case you've succeeded admirably.

    3) You don't quite manage to make the game feel "professional", but it's pretty damn close.

    4) Most of my critisicms (see below) are mere nitpicks. That's pretty impressive.


    Specific compliments:

    1) You nailed the feel of the movement. The frob distance seems lower then I'm used to, but I think this is probably a good thing which I'll appreciate over time.

    2) The lockpicking mechanic is pretty much perfect. You really impressed me here. It's a lightweight mechanic which integrates really well with the rest of the game.

    3) I appreciate the more restricted blackjacking rules. Thank you so much for getting rid of the ability to blackjack people just after they spot you. It really improves the game.


    Critisicms:

    0) I haven't played the game much, so take everything I say here with a grain of salt (it may just be a result of me not quite being used to the mechanics, or incorrectly generalising from one or two "moments", or incorrectly generalising from one mission).

    1) Three use buttons. Three use buttons. I'm sorry guys, but this felt messy to me. I think you simulate object manipulation in too much detail. The extra game mechanics you get just don't seem to be worth the added interface complexity ... how often am I really going to use this stuff? It's a stealth game, not a physics simulation. I also found some button combinations to be unintuitive (click use button A to pick up a candle, then use button B to extinguish it, followed by use button A to place it back down again? Guards are dragged by default, not shouldered?).

    2) A few nitpicks regarding the lockpicking system: it wasn't always clear to me whether an attempted pick (I use the word "pick" here to refer to one stage of the lockpicking process) had succeeded or not. I found that I switched lockpicks quite a lot, only to find that my earlier attempt had failed. It would be nice if the handle reverts to it's position at the start of a pick upon failure. Also, if I successfully release the mouse button during the pause, is the sound of success delayed until after that pause completes? That was the way it felt to me, which I found mildly frustrating.

    3) I found the AI pathfinding to be a bit dodgy. I saw guards walking in small circles quite a lot, usually because of doors I'd opened, or as a result of partial alerts near doorways.

    4) I found that the AI didn't always give me fantastic feedback. I think the bark system could be more responsive. Several times it looked like the AI had heard me and turned towards my position, but only gave verbal feedback after a couple of seconds.

    5) At one stage, while I attempted to jump from one carpet to another while approaching a guard, I accidently ran onto the tiles, and the guard hear me and attacked. So far so good. However, the guard actually heard me and turned towards me before I heard my footstep on the tiles. While it was obvious enough what had happened, this felt a little strange.

    6) The visibility bonus I get for crouching seems a little extreme. It made some areas easier then I felt they should have been. To be fair though, I may not be saying this if I had attempted to ghost the mission.

  6. #756
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Toronto, Canada
    There is no rich, significant and substantial mythology and indeed the mod lacks "justification" of the setting.
    The setting is not supposed to revolve around one "hero" character, which does make it different than Thief. The "one character who is at the heart of everything important that ever happens" settings get a little old, however. The Dark Mod setting has lots of room for significant characters and stories.

  7. #757
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Brown View Post
    I'll continue to think about it, though, as there must be a way to solve this riddle...
    Okay, I thought about it. Three possible ideas:

    Hollering
    This one doesn't do much, per se, but it does add extra incentive for the player to act rather than wait. Simply put, if an enemy holds a block for several seconds then they begin calling for help. Since a stalemate will otherwise be silent, this increases the odds of other NPCs hearing the commotion and overwhelming the player. I'm not quite sure how the sound propagation works (does shouting carry further than the sounds of combat?), but it seems feasible.

    Tiring
    Taking a cue from the bow system, if the player holds an attack for too long, their character will automatically lower his sword (hey, swords are heavy). The same holds true not only for parrying, but also applies to enemies as well. To keep things interesting, though, the amount of time anyone can hold an attack/defense is somewhat random (within reason), so there will be times where you still can score a successful hit against a foe who lowers his guard too early.

    Headbutting
    Playing with the bullrush concept still, but what if when an enemy is forced to hold his guard for too long he rushes into the player and literally butts heads with them? Although it wouldn't cause any damage, the act would cause both the player and the enemy to lower their weapons. Technically, you don't even have to worry about animating the maneuver, since it's hard to tell what's going on at that proximity anyway. A simple sound effect would suffice.

  8. #758
    jtr7
    Guest
    The copyright vs. TDM vs. Dark or Flesh Engine is a waste of energy. TDM's close enough to a clean slate that it seems threatening (which doesn't deserve the stupid backlash crap), yet far enough that it shouldn't be so hard to project a sense of a character like Garrett. If fans can fake Garrett's character close enough to satisfy, then I don't see why they can't just continue to do so, and just change names. FM authors already call their characters Garrett even when they really don't match LGS and Mr. Russell's creation. This is not the whole new territory the unimaginative think it is. A different means to a similar end, is all. It's a self-psych-out to fear this Mod.


    Broken Glass--It's easy to suggest you don't spend so much time dealing with the jerks who can't begin to say anything constructive, but then, I fully understand.

  9. #759
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: UK
    Quote Originally Posted by Chade View Post
    ... I also found some button combinations to be unintuitive (click use button A to pick up a candle, then use button B to extinguish it, followed by use button A to place it back down again? Guards are dragged by default, not shouldered?).
    Many good points there Chade but I'll just pick up on the above. The problem is if you use the same button both to pick up, extinguish, and put down how would the code know whether you want to pick up the candle or extinguish it? It needs a separate control. The separate inventory use key already exists to only work on what the player is carrying. This helps in situations where you try to frob a door and accidentally frob a flashbomb that is still selected in the inventory, or waste a health potion. We've found in time it really works and we all find it very intuitive now. Give it time.

    Object manipulation of course can be left alone if the player doesn't like it. Just don't manipulate anything. For example, you can stack crates by turning your body instead. But most players are finding the object manipulation to be really useful. Hope you do to in time.

  10. #760
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: ColoRADo
    Did a bit of work on an FM this weekend. untitled.
    I was a bit out of touch with the controls, but didn't take too long to get 'em down again. You can always change them in the drop down menu anyway.


    Outfront

    main stairway

  11. #761
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Sweet Sweet Sweet!!!!!

    I had to borrow my brothers computer to play this this, I bought Doom3 off Steam and finally got to run through a bit of it. Guys really, I dont know exactly what to say... You did it. You really did it. I cant wait to dig in a little deeper.

  12. #762
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: The Inverted Manse
    Quote Originally Posted by Fidcal View Post
    There's goes another theory ...
    Same here. I didn't change any of the options. The first few loads worked fine and then it started crashing.

  13. #763
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Brown View Post
    Okay, I thought about it. Three possible ideas:

    Hollering
    [...]
    The shout from when they first enter combat with you should already be bringing all the guards in the yard. I'm not sure if we also made the barks they shout during combat propagated, but if not that's pretty easy to do.

    Tiring
    [...]
    That could work IMO, we'd have to try it out and see. As long as it's a long enough time that it doesn't normally interfere with stealth kills (that would kind of suck if you were stalking someone with weapon raised and it went down automatically). Maybe 15-30 seconds or so.

    Headbutting
    A lot would depend on the implementation I think. If it's not clear enough what's going on, the player might just think it's a bug.

  14. #764
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2007
    Location: Russia, Tambov region, Uvarovo
    Schwaa2: Looks very good .

  15. #765
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2008
    Been playing for the past few hours, and thought I'd share my thoughts before I go to sleep. I play in Linux with an NVIDIA chip on Ultra and performance is very good. One thing I wish the player could do is the "tappedy tapp move" like you can do in Thief. Basically, you crouch and tap forward slowly and remain quiet. In TDM, even hitting forward for an instant causes a faint footstep sound. I like the idea in the updater that will keep the mod current without having to download tuns of patches manually.

    I REALLY like the lock picking. You can do it visually, or by sound, and that is how it was in Thief. I also like the texture work and ambient sounds.

    One question though, will we always be able to take the arrows out of guards/NPCs that we shoot? Every time I kill one, I walk up and say "I believe you've got my property!" and retrieve the arrow. This makes it unnecessary to buy lots of arrows, because you can always recycle them.

  16. #766
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Tucson, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishtvan View Post
    Anyway, I would say ask New Horizon, and we might want to discuss it internally a bit.
    Something else I have to consider is whether or not to review the three FMs that were released alongside it. On the one hand, changes to the Dark Mod aren't likely to have a large effect on them, but on the other hand I'm not sure how I feel about reviewing content for a game before I review the game itself, y'know?

    This is curiously complicated.

  17. #767
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: UK
    Quote Originally Posted by lost_soul View Post
    One thing I wish the player could do is the "tappedy tapp move" like you can do in Thief. Basically, you crouch and tap forward slowly and remain quiet. In TDM, even hitting forward for an instant causes a faint footstep sound.
    To some extent you can if the guard is not too close but not so fast. If you tap forward a footstep or two and pause then the guard might mutter but pausing let's him cool off. If you just keep going I think his alertness is reinforced and increased. I'm not 100% certain of this but found I was doing it in Chalice around the crown area. Also remember 'creep' although that slows things down.

    Quote Originally Posted by lost_soul View Post
    One question though, will we always be able to take the arrows out of guards/NPCs that we shoot? Every time I kill one, I walk up and say "I believe you've got my property!" and retrieve the arrow. This makes it unnecessary to buy lots of arrows, because you can always recycle them.
    I'm sure there's no plan to change that so yes. I believe all spent arrows fade out of the game in time though so get 'em while they're hot. Again, I'm not 100% certain of this but for instance, in the trainer you can get infinite arrows of different sorts. I doubt you could have hundreds of spent arrows in the targets though.

  18. #768
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: UK
    Quote Originally Posted by Haplo View Post
    Same here. I didn't change any of the options. The first few loads worked fine and then it started crashing.
    So what could be different about systems where this problem occurs because the vast majority don't see this.

  19. #769
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2005
    Location: UK
    Quote Originally Posted by Fidcal View Post
    piln: I did see that stiff neck bug once but we concluded it was because I'd noclipped and alerted a guard. But there now have been more than on report of the same. So, yes, if you can upload your gamesave somewhere. Also, would you mind adding it to the public bug tracker at http://bugs.angua.at ? Or I can do it if you'd rather.
    Yep, I'll do that.

    I'm thinking of making the tiniest container ever - a portable locket or similar you could pick up and examine but it could also be opened and have say, a lock of hair inside. I think that's possible but you'd have to put the locket down to open it and probably the 'lid' would highlight separate from the body.
    I was wondering about in-hand items with movable parts... while I was poking about a Dark Mod kitchen or store room, I was thinking "what if this pot lid could open, is it possible...?" The locket is a great idea - could it not work similar to extinguishing a candle, in that the "use" key could open it while it's in hand? Rather than having to put it down to frob it, I mean.

    A random thought re: lockpicking - currently it seems AI do not hear the sound of picking. Assuming that someday they will, I thought it might be a good idea if the sound of a mistake was slightly noisier than the sounds of normal/successful picking. Does that make sense?

    In response to Chade, about the lockpicking controls: I'd recommend using the two-button method instead, ie holding the "frob" button all the time, and clicking "attack" in the gap. See if that makes it any easier. Not sure about visual feedback, but the sounds of success and failure are quite distinct so you should be able to recognise them instantly after a bit of practise. And about the other controls, I agree that the various different types of use button seem a bit fussy but there's a logic that mostly holds up and becomes second nature after a bit of play. I'm not keen on using the "drop" button to put inventory items into hand, I'd have preferred the inventory "use" key (for the crown, for example)... but I've been trying to think of how to streamline controls further and I've come up blank (every change I've imagined would either knacker an exisiting function or conflict with another). The spirit of LGS lives on

    Working on your key & mouse mapping until you have a system you're completely happy with is well worth the time. Having a 10-button mouse certainly helps!

    Just for fun:

    TDM archery is a lot like real archery

  20. #770
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by piln View Post
    A random thought re: lockpicking - currently it seems AI do not hear the sound of picking. Assuming that someday they will, I thought it might be a good idea if the sound of a mistake was slightly noisier than the sounds of normal/successful picking. Does that make sense?
    We chose not to have lockpicking be an alert for gameplay reasons. The player is already out in the open in many cases. The chance of being caught is already pretty high.

  21. #771
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2000
    Location: Limbo of the Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by New Horizon View Post
    We chose not to have lockpicking be an alert for gameplay reasons. The player is already out in the open in many cases. The chance of being caught is already pretty high.
    Actually, I quite like the idea of a failed attempt to pick the lock being audible to guards. As an example, when just using the 'frob' key to listen to the clicks the guards aren't able to hear it, but if you use the attack key and it fails when a guard is within hearing distance (say, in the same room) then they could become suspicious (but not fully alert). This would certainly ramp up the tension in certain scenarios and would encourage you to practice lock-picking.

    Edit: Sorry, I know you guys have lots on your plate, but would this be possible to enable only when using 'Expert' lock-picking?
    Last edited by TheCapedPillager; 26th Oct 2009 at 09:53.

  22. #772
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: UK
    Quote Originally Posted by piln View Post
    I was wondering about in-hand items with movable parts... while I was poking about a Dark Mod kitchen or store room, I was thinking "what if this pot lid could open, is it possible...?"
    Yes that should be possible similar to the locket. A lot extra though is possible with special scripting and/or coding so I'd think a russian inside a doll inside a doll etc is possible
    Quote Originally Posted by piln View Post
    The locket is a great idea - could it not work similar to extinguishing a candle, in that the "use" key could open it while it's in hand? Rather than having to put it down to frob it, I mean.
    That would need special coding. By default the use key works on the selected object in the inventory. I don't know if normally works on a carried object. If it does then yes it might be possible even now.

  23. #773
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: UK
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCapedPillager View Post
    Actually, I quite like the idea of a failed attempt to pick the lock being audible to guards. As an example, when just using the 'frob' key to listen to the clicks the guards aren't able to hear it, but if you use the attack key and it fails when a guard is within hearing distance (say, in the same room) then they could become suspicious (but not fully alert). This would certainly ramp up the tension in certain scenarios and would encourage you to practice lock-picking.

    Edit: Sorry, I know you guys have lots on your plate, but would this be possible to enable only when using 'Expert' lock-picking?
    It's technically possible but I think unlikely to be implemented. Just this morning a made up a long list of important features and fixes for the next update and even this will have to be drastically reduced to a short list. So don't hold your breathe for lockpick alerts!

  24. #774
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Toronto, Canada
    One question though, will we always be able to take the arrows out of guards/NPCs that we shoot? Every time I kill one, I walk up and say "I believe you've got my property!" and retrieve the arrow. This makes it unnecessary to buy lots of arrows, because you can always recycle them.
    Only the "death arrow" sticks into an AI, so if you continually make one-shot kills, then you won't run out of arrows. But you have to be a pretty damn good shot to do that, as hitting them anywhere with armour won't do enough damage.

    A random thought re: lockpicking - currently it seems AI do not hear the sound of picking. Assuming that someday they will, I thought it might be a good idea if the sound of a mistake was slightly noisier than the sounds of normal/successful picking. Does that make sense?
    It's still open for discussion about which sounds should propogate to AI. I'm of the opinion that any sound that isn't a 'meta-game' sound (like a loot chime) should propogate to AI, but that could easily make the game harder than some people would like.

  25. #775
    Member
    Registered: May 2009
    Location: Hurr Durr
    Just got to Edinburgh, away from my tight as you like data choke, so I can finally download and getting 500 to 600/650 kB/s on the torrent.

    Lovely

    (48mins in all)
    Last edited by Namdrol; 26th Oct 2009 at 13:46.

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