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Thread: The Legend of Grimrock: 2.5D dungeon-crawling game

  1. #151
    Cuddly little misanthropic hate machine
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: i am the avatar of tolerance
    Because Grimrock doesn't have the fiddly bullshit so endemic to old games like DM?

  2. #152
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinqueecclesiensis HU
    Quote Originally Posted by Koki View Post
    The question is, since it's apparently just Dungeon Master/2 with worse XP system and worse spell system...

    Why play Grimrock and not Dungeon Master/2?
    Because we have already played DM a few times?

    Also, I guess graphics and bling, shallow consumer whores that we are.

  3. #153
    Cuddly little misanthropic hate machine
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: i am the avatar of tolerance
    And also because we're fucking old and don't have the patience anymore.

  4. #154
    Plus presumably when games appear to be moving in a direction you like, you buy those games to demonstrate support, and encourage future games to also move in that direction.

  5. #155
    Taking a break
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Quote Originally Posted by dethtoll View Post
    Because Grimrock doesn't have the fiddly bullshit so endemic to old games like DM?
    Yes it does. Almost all of it.

  6. #156
    Thing What Kicks
    Registered: Apr 2004
    Location: The Grisly Grotto
    Dungeon Master 2 is a bit shit compared to the original though. That's why I wouldn't play DM2 instead of Grimrock.
    I also fired up a Return to Chaos game immediately after finishing Grimrock, and fiddly shit? Original DM plays in very much the same way as Grimrock, and I'd go so far as to say that from a user interface perspective it works almost identically, and even better when it comes to spellcasting. Having separate interface elements for spellcasting and combat allows you to pre-cast spells on all 4 characters before getting in to combat.

  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Koki View Post
    The question is, since it's apparently just Dungeon Master/2 with worse XP system and worse spell system...

    Why play Grimrock and not Dungeon Master/2?
    I do play with old games, but emulators are a pain in the ass. Also, adapting your brain to interpret low resolution (read less functional) graphics correctly takes time.

  8. #158
    Taking a break
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Quote Originally Posted by Papy View Post
    I do play with old games, but emulators are a pain in the ass.
    http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/851

    Sadly you need DOSBox for DM2

  9. #159
    Thing What Kicks
    Registered: Apr 2004
    Location: The Grisly Grotto
    I used to use dmweb too, until someone pointed me at Return to Chaos, which has all of the DM games built in; you choose which you want to play when you launch the application, no DOSbox needed.
    Get it here.

  10. #160
    Taking a break
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Uh, the clone I linked is also 100% Windows based.

    (Though admittely it doesn't contain DM2 and there's some framerate issues)

  11. #161
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2000
    Location: wisco inferno
    Return to Chaos does seem to be the best current means of giving the original Dungeon Master a spin, so there really is no excuse to not play it for those looking for the original 3D dungeon experience.

    As for the "why play Grimrock and not Dungeon Master?" question: first of all, Grimrock simply presents an awesome dungeon, one that provides a far better proper sequel to Dungeon Master than DM II ever did. The game is well worth playing in its own right, either as "more Dungeon Master" or as a stand-alone experience.

    And secondly--sidestepping the larger issue of hurdles many encounter with legacy gaming in general--I'd argue that Dungeon Master partially succeeded due to an atmosphere to which the passing of time has not been kind. Dungeon Master wasn't just a cool game with a neat magic system and fun gameplay, it was the first realtime 3D "you-are-fucking-there" role playing video game. The game world wasn't just thick boxes demarcating rooms and icons representing threats and treasures, but long chambers that disappeared off into darkness and monsters that could creep up from behind and scare the shit out of you if you weren't paying attention. It was a groundbreaking experience of unparalleled virtual dungeon crawling.

    And now it looks like exactly what it is: a relic from a bygone age. Oh, it will still work its charms if you give it the space, and the gameplay (mostly) hasn't aged a day, but the experience the game provided that initially drew in me and countless others hasn't exactly survived these 20-something years intact. The game is still as fun as it ever was, but the core reason Dungeon Master hangs so heavily over my childhood simply isn't there anymore.

    Which is pretty common with games that use cutting edge technology to provide a previously unknown level of immersion, but we're lucky enough to have a new game called Grimrock that manages to update the formula for the modern age. Grimrock isn't going to revolutionize its genre and create a legion of converts the way Dungeon Master did in the day, but it comes far closer in 2012 to the feel of playing Dungeon Master circa 1988.

    Not that Dungeon Master isn't worth playing now, but Grimrock does justice to its forefathers while easily justifying its own existence.

  12. #162
    fuck those running out torches and any levels infested with spiders

  13. #163
    I find managing food to be a much bigger pain in the ass than the torches, which I have a massive stockpile of.

  14. #164
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinqueecclesiensis HU
    So far, I have avoided the food problem by avoiding sleeping (and even forget there was an option for it). Characters don't get hungry so fast this way, and the game has no rules for insomnia.

  15. #165
    Taking a break
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Screw you guys, I'm playing Dungeon Master.

    The system in this game is fucking amazing.

  16. #166
    Thing What Kicks
    Registered: Apr 2004
    Location: The Grisly Grotto
    What system Koki? Experience? Magic? Combat? Food? Water?
    Overall, Grimrock works mostly in the same way, but isn't quite as refined. I think that's from necessity, as they've imposed a feat system and locked spells and abilities based on points invested in skill lines. This leaves it feeling a lot less open than DM's system.
    To be honest, I'd love to see an open-world game like Skyrim with DM's systems. I think it could work really well.

  17. #167
    Taking a break
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Quote Originally Posted by Malf View Post
    Overall, Grimrock works mostly in the same way, but isn't quite as refined. I think that's from necessity, as they've imposed a feat system and locked spells and abilities based on points invested in skill lines. This leaves it feeling a lot less open than DM's system.
    Yeah, that what puts me off the game. DM is completely open and classless. I fucking love classless systems where you're one thing and then if you want to be another thing, then you just start doing it - no restrictions, no rerolling or making another char. I asked if you can go solo in Grimrock but even if you could, you wouldn't go far because you're limited by the amount of experience you can get. In DM, you can be a master of everything as long as you spend enough time practicing it(even if it means throwing a scroll at a closed door for four hours).

    And the spell system in DM? Probably best ever.

    Now DM is a pretty simple game so despite an advanced system - there's relatively few skills, spells and even stats. But the framework is there. I mean shit, there's 216 possible spell combinations(not counting the power runes) and the game uses like 20.

    To be honest, I'd love to see an open-world game like Skyrim with DM's systems. I think it could work really well.
    It would be orgasmic.

    Funny you mention Skyrim because it's kind of a similar idea(do thing, get better at it, get better overall from doing it) but much more primitive in execution and more limiting because of the perk system which forces you to spec.

    As usual, in the videogame industry you go backwards the more you go forwards

  18. #168
    Thing What Kicks
    Registered: Apr 2004
    Location: The Grisly Grotto
    It's difficult to be objective about DM's system however, as I'm a total fanboy and it's probably my favourite CRPG system ever.

    But yeah, even when you have a complete magical black hole like Halk the Barbarian in your party, when you first discover you can turn him in to a mage by giving him a piece of equipment that artificially gives him some mana? Man, that's fucking AWESOME. It's this flexibility that first gained my admiration, and while other games attempted to mimic it, nothing has done it as well.

    Sure, given a big enough world and enough time you end up with a situation where eventually your characters will be Mon masters in every discipline, but the beauty there is that even at such levels of expertise, monsters in DM could still take you by surprise and ruin your day.
    Last edited by Malf; 19th Apr 2012 at 09:04.

  19. #169
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: UK
    Koki, did you recently inherit some money? You seem very agreeable and chipper of late.

  20. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Koki View Post
    Funny you mention Skyrim because it's kind of a similar idea(do thing, get better at it, get better overall from doing it) but much more primitive in execution and more limiting because of the perk system which forces you to spec.

    As usual, in the videogame industry you go backwards the more you go forwards
    Wasn't the whole point of the perk system to try and get AWAY from the 'master of ALL' phenotype that elder scrolls games otherwise always produced?

    I mean, in Morrowind or oblivion you can start out as pretty much whatever you like, but by the end you'll always be a super magical-archer-barbarian-assassin-rogue, unless you deliberately enforce class restriction on yourself. And I think people objected to that (for some reason).

    I personally still think SOME class restriction is good, just because it adds variety to a system that is otherwise likely to produce a lot of homegeneity: so something like, say...guild wars, where every skill was availble to every class, so you could be a warrior with straight necro skills if you wanted, but a necro would always be better at utilising those skills.

    So you could still have your barbarian mages, but they'd be outmatched by actual dedicated mages in anything not involving muscle.

    Or maybe that's how DM works? I never played it when I was younger.

  21. #171
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2000
    Location: wisco inferno
    It's a bit more difficult to enforce in an open-ended game like Skyrim or Morrowind, but I do think that having a finite amount of advancement realistically possible could discourage "masters of all" in a truly classless game. Level up a plethora of skills via use, fine, but don't expect to achieve great heights in anything unless you focus a bit.

    Kind of like life.

    But not at all like Grimrock, a game in which such a system would have actually worked incredibly well. I fall increasingly in love with Grimrock with each deeper level of dungeon, but I do think that the game's strictly class-based leveling system isn't one of its strengths.

  22. #172
    Taking a break
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Quote Originally Posted by DDL View Post
    I personally still think SOME class restriction is good, just because it adds variety to a system that is otherwise likely to produce a lot of homegeneity: so something like, say...guild wars, where every skill was availble to every class, so you could be a warrior with straight necro skills if you wanted, but a necro would always be better at utilising those skills.

    So you could still have your barbarian mages, but they'd be outmatched by actual dedicated mages in anything not involving muscle.

    Or maybe that's how DM works? I never played it when I was younger.
    You can play it now.

    I think the Chaos Strikes Back changes it for some skills in that they only work if you actually do damage with them. I remember you could stand in an empty room swinging a sword and gain Fighter levels in vanilla DM, something that doesn't seem to work anymore in CSB. Throwing a scroll at a closed door 9000 times still works though, as does casting spells that don't do damage(like light, or create stamina potion for some extra throwing).

    But even in the original DM the limit you're talking about was implemented simply by the XP tables*. The XP required to get a new level doubles every time, so it quickly reaches really really high values. If you're playing with a four-person party and don't grind you can consider it a success if you reach a Master level in Fighter/Ninja/Mage/Priest on any char, and there are six different levels of "Master" with Archmaster ON TOP OF THAT AND it doesn't stop there because (*) the game doesn't use a table but just a simple "double" alghoritm to calculate the XP requirements. Theoretically it would go on forever.

    Bottom line is, it's easy to be a mediocre or even devent at everything, but to be a real Master/Archmaster would take idiotic amounts of time or some sort of cheating/exploit. So a fighter/mage who played same amount of time as a pure fighter or a pure mage would be worse than both at the respective roles.

  23. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    I'm sure someone's tried it, but has anyone made a character with the name of the guy who solo'd the dungeon before your party got there? You find his notes scattered around, and there's a reference to him watermarked on the graph paper that came with the manual. It seems like there should be some sort of significance to that guy, and using that name to play solo would be what I would have done as the devteam.
    So yeah, apparently ^^^^^ but it only works after you receive a particular achievement. http://www.gamebanshee.com/legendofg...toorummode.php

  24. #174
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2000
    Location: wisco inferno
    And so after a good sixteen hours of in-game dungeon navigation (and 24 or so according to Steam--apparently I'm one reload-happy sonofabitch) I have managed to plumb the lowest depths of Grimrock, and then climb back up a couple of levels, and then head back down again before heading back up and then down. Anyway, bottom line: I've bested (huge spoiler) the giant mechanical cube of evil.

    More about that spoiler: yes, that's right: a game with thirteen levels of dinosaurs and ogres and squid-faced monks has an end boss that is a giant mechanical cube of evil. Complete with gears. That you have to remove in order to beat him.

    You remove gears from a mechanical cube.

    Anyway, wtflol end boss aside--and even that sorta kinda makes sideways sense in a way--Grimrock easily lived up to my heightened expectations. It satisfies that ol' Dungeon Master craving while still forging its own unique identity, and it provided (mild spoiler) thirteen excellent level of solid dungeoneering.

    Yes, the magic system is kind of shitty, and yes, the game lacks compelling upper level character development, and yes, the end boss is a giant mechanical cube of evil, but Grimrock is still an incredibly fun entry in a long-dormant genre, and it easily ranks up there among its better peers.

    It has also apparently been an overwhelming financial success, which is both well-earned and something of a guarantee that Almost Human will be following up Grimrock with more. But where can they go from here?

    Most successful sequels, I think, tend to expand upon the strengths of the predecessor and generally take things to a new level while staying true to the franchise. Some growth is generally desired, or else a sequel can be little more than more of the same. But how feasible is growth in a franchise that hinges on its defining characteristic of purposeful primitivism?

  25. #175
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: cesspool
    It somehow reminded me of Arx Fatalis, especially inventory

    Excellent game, I'm actually surprised it's that enjoyable, really hard to put it down once you start to play it. It's long, its levels are large, but strangely it doesn't bore even though the environment looks the same, probably because it's really challenging (on hard it's really REALLY challenging), combat is fun, and it has lots of varied puzzles, secrets, and stuff.

    I find managing food to be a much bigger pain in the ass than the torches, which I have a massive stockpile of.
    Same here. I've just started the 5th level and I see that my initially large stock dwindles fast, I guess I'll end up with mo foodby the time I'll start 7th or 8th level, maybe even sooner. As for the second problem - torches (which also eventually started to dwindle), luckily I've just found a solution:
    spoiler:
    I found a scroll with Magic Light spell.
    Last edited by 242; 23rd Apr 2012 at 20:07.

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