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Thread: GTA V

  1. #51
    member
    Registered: Jun 2006
    Location: canaustralia
    Quote Originally Posted by EvaUnit02 View Post
    Also Scott's accusation that series is getting stale is pretty false. GTA4 overhauled/replaced gameplay mechanics in a big way over the GTA3-verse titles.
    Including a cover mechanic doesn't make a huge difference when every mission is just "drive somewhere, kill everyone, chase someone down, kill them, drive home". GTAIV was a big step backwards in terms of mission variety.

  2. #52
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    That is if you consider beach Dance Dance Revolution credible "variety" for a gangster.

  3. #53
    member
    Registered: Jun 2006
    Location: canaustralia
    Whether it's dissonant or not is another argument. At the very least I didn't find San Andreas boring, whereas I absolutely found GTAIV boring.

  4. #54
    PC Gamering Smartey Man
    I <3 consoles and gamepads

    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: New Zealand
    A stronger focus on serious storytelling than ever before; nuanced world detail (internet, TV) + character interactions and behaviour (Euphoria engine); Multiplayer; semi-realistic physics (eg for driving); GPS navigation; the aforementioned cover mechanics; an overhauled aiming system; overhauled drive-by controls.

    Many of the latter examples are entirely iterative, sure, but they still went a long way in improving the overall game experience over the GTA3-verse titles.

    That being said, vanilla GTA4 made far too many missteps for me to rate it above Vice City or SA. Flawed game, but it still accomplished so much.
    Last edited by EvaUnit02; 3rd Nov 2011 at 19:56.

  5. #55
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: sup
    Quote Originally Posted by EvaUnit02 View Post
    Also Scott's accusation that series is getting stale is pretty false. GTA4 overhauled/replaced gameplay mechanics in a big way over the GTA3-verse titles.
    Quote Originally Posted by EvaUnit02 View Post
    A stronger focus on serious storytelling than ever before; nuanced world detail (internet, TV) + character interactions and behaviour (Euphoria engine); Multiplayer; semi-realistic physics (eg for driving); GPS navigation; the aforementioned cover mechanics; an overhauled aiming system; overhauled drive-by controls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scots Taffer View Post
    Gameplay mechanics for GTA are getting old and the new stuff they've pulled out of the bag thus far (dating, personalisation, friends, hobbies etc) ain't that fun.
    Thanks for repeating me. I didn't say the entire series was stale. I specified a fair whack of the new stuff - I just don't like any of it.

    Semantics abounds... maybe "gameplay mechanics being old" isn't the best way of putting it, strip out the word "mechanics" and I reckon I'm pretty dead on though. The driving, aiming and physics getting a bit of a do-over isn't innovative, merely a refinement of what's already been around for three games. ercles said it best, the mission formula (better term) is definitely stale and hasn't been redefined or innovated by some improvements in handling.

    As for "serious storytelling", I personally didn't find Niko's story more engaging or better told than previous GTA games. In fact, I found it to have the opposite effect. The prior games were at least honest about the fact that you were the best of a bad bunch of gangsters in terms of your player character - it is a game series called Grand Theft Auto after all. A series famous for stealing cars, kerbstomping hookers and indiscriminately blasting passers by. Why do I want to play some guy who doesn't want to be bad? That's the whole fucking cornerstone of the series.
    Last edited by Scots Taffer; 3rd Nov 2011 at 21:42.

  6. #56
    The Alchemist
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Scots Taffer View Post
    Thanks for repeating me. I didn't say the entire series was stale. I specified a fair whack of the new stuff - I just don't like any of it.

    Semantics abounds... maybe "gameplay mechanics being old" isn't the best way of putting it, strip out the word "mechanics" and I reckon I'm pretty dead on though. The driving, aiming and physics getting a bit of a do-over isn't innovative, merely a refinement of what's already been around for three games. ercles said it best, the mission formula (better term) is definitely stale and hasn't been redefined or innovated by some improvements in handling.

    As for "serious storytelling", I personally didn't find Niko's story more engaging or better told than previous GTA games. In fact, I found it to have the opposite effect. The prior games were at least honest about the fact that you were the best of a bad bunch of gangsters in terms of your player character - it is a game series called Grand Theft Auto after all. A series famous for stealing cars, kerbstomping hookers and indiscriminately blasting passers by. Why do I want to play some guy who doesn't want to be bad? That's the whole fucking cornerstone of the series.
    I think you missed the point (and probably wont like where GTAV is going either). If we continued to hype up being a miserable cunt and just killing anyone and doing whatever you need to do, you'd end up with Saints Row. And arguably, Saints Row is truer to the original GTA than any of the newer ones. I refer to the 2d one. However, as the graphics became more realistic, so too did the situations. And frankly, it's hard to be a total badass and not get capped. You'd have to keep in mind that this, too, was heritage to the original GTA, as getting the military on your ass was a quick way to eat an explosive shell from a tank. So in order to provide you a gameworld that isnt one 40 hr long griefing exercise (albiet fun as that is), the characters had to have a moral contrast that kept you from all out losing it. How do you want intense narrative when your character has blown up half of the city? You just want to get away with that shit? I understand wanting to be specifically bad, but I think a lot like Walter White Niko slowly transforms into this more evil entity. For the sake of the narrative structure, you have to have some balance so that the gameworld doesn't fall apart. And as you can probably tell, I'm a big fan of this formula. I loved the Niko story, even if it wasnt perfect. It was evocative and fun. And the level of realism kept it from becoming too stale of a sandbox. If Minecraft has taught me anything, it's that sandbox games need electric fences and mines in order to keep it interesting. As far as being a "criminal" in the narrative sense, it seems as though this one is going to focus on a shady guy who is still a shady guy, despite family and real life. Again, even badass criminals have to face reality. Otherwise you're just some comical, 2d supervillan. I'm very happy with the whole mafia approach.

    HOWEVER.

    There's an entire other side to this coin, and it's called Saints Row The Third. If you want a gameworld you can call in laser pointed aerial assaults, fly your neon glowing fire breathing supercar of death off a building, off of a plane, and into a pool as you swiftly maneuver to a jetski while tossing pipe bombs at the oncoming police in hoverbikes, then Saints Row is for you. And yes, that is as fun as it sounds. Ok, I dont know if ALL of this is possible, but I know game be crazy. So eventually, I'll have both. When I want to do 360's while surfing on my car hood (actually has a fucking balance minigame for surfing on cars) I'll play SR3. When I want a gripping narrative noire experience I'll go for GTAV.

    Seriously. SR3 has hoverbikes. Fucking dude. Hoverbikes.

  7. #57
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    @Scots, what kinds of things do you have in mind that would be refreshing to see?

    To me, I see GTA as a series with clear mechanics that everyone's familiar with & that sells, almost like Civilization (which you couldn't imagine changing the formula too much), so I'm not surprised to see each iteration rehashing the basic mechanics, and open world, & mission structure.

    If you don't like the mission structure (that's the most specific thing you mentioned I can imagine where you're going), it seems like the main alternative is to open the plot-advancement with something like open objectives, you have to go out in the world and achieve them at your own pace, and achieving one opens others, although that's almost getting into "quests" and RPG territory. Anyway, that's something I was thinking about that might be an interesting variation.

    The other thing I was thinking about was more world simulation generally so you could, e.g., start an enterprise, buy properties & supplies, deal with competition & grift, and it all gets procedurally simulated (a real economy)... but it's not something you *had* to do, just something you could (parallel to the plot), or even more generally speaking, sandbox stuff going on persistently in the world that's not tethered down to missions but the world changes over the game procedurally by things you do. That could change the character of the game some too, but I'd like it anyway.
    Last edited by demagogue; 3rd Nov 2011 at 22:48. Reason: wording

  8. #58
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    It wouldnt suprise me to see some kind of thing like that, considering the main 'theme' is pursuit of the almighty dollar in a tough economic situation (from the looks of things). Chinatown Wars had a little side-game of drug-dealing, where prices would change according to supply and demand, it was really quite fun, and I would make a bet they will have something similar to that, but on a grander scale.
    Also, I doubt anyone would like this idea, but I think the police wanted levels should be much stricter, but much easier to escape from. So, if you speed past a cop car, he starts chasing you, you run a red light while a cop is watching etc etc.

  9. #59
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by EvaUnit02 View Post
    What the fuck? You could tell jack shit about the gameplay, since none of it was shown.
    I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the gameplay is gonna be driving cars fast and shooting guns. Sorry bro, but "radical reinvention" just sounds like empty PR talk to me. The difference between GTA2 & 3 was a radical reinvention, I'll believe GTA5 is reinventing things on the same scope when I see it.

  10. #60
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Vice City let you buy property that made money for you, didn't it? I'd like an economy/business you could run alongside the plot. Perhaps opening up extra content depending on how you do.

    I didn't mind the social stuff in IV at first, but later on it got really dull. You'd think the devs would be aware that a good chunk of players didn't like that aspect of the game.

    Also guys - I have a PS3 and a PC. What's the best way for me to play San Andreas?
    Telepathy is not mind reading. It is the direct linking... ...of nervous systems... ...separated by space.

  11. #61
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Subjective Effect View Post
    Vice City let you buy property that made money for you, didn't it? I'd like an economy/business you could run alongside the plot. Perhaps opening up extra content depending on how you do.
    It's only rumours so far, but there's a scene in the trailer with a house up for sale (ooh, exciting! ); most articles I've read at least hypothesise that this is going to be gameplay-relevant. Then again, it might just be part of the whole "economic crisis" motif they seem to be going for.
    I didn't mind the social stuff in IV at first, but later on it got really dull. You'd think the devs would be aware that a good chunk of players didn't like that aspect of the game.
    IMO they have to improve at least one of two things: 1) they have to make the socialising more interesting/fun, 2) they have to make it less annoying and easier to opt out of. I doubt they're deaf to the criticism this aspect of the game got - in fact, they already improved it for the episodes.
    Also guys - I have a PS3 and a PC. What's the best way for me to play San Andreas?
    Unless you have a PS3 that is backwards-compatible, you have to play it on PC. Also, if you've got a fairly good PC, there are mods that increase the view distance considerably, and I'd definitely consider them worthwhile. There are also texture mods, but I'm usually not that big a fan of them; their makers don't just up the resolution and try to recreate the original look and feel, they tend to do stuff along the lines of changing things to their real-world equivalent, which to my mind is missing the point somewhat. That's very much personal opinion, though.

  12. #62
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Finger paintings of the insane
    @ Scots: There were actually 5 GTA games last gen, not just 3! Don't forget the Sony-exclusive Liberty City Stories and Vice City Stories.

    And yeah, Eva, if you think they are going to reinvent the wheel here I am afraid you will be sorely mistaken. There is a certain formula they adhere to. Otherwise they would just put their radical changes into an entire new ip (see LA Noire, Max Payne 3, Red Dead, etc...).

  13. #63
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2007
    Location: Finland

  14. #64
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Hahahaha

  15. #65
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Yeah I've been playing SA all this week and the better graphics quality just screamed out when I watched that video (edit: the trailer, I mean, even before this comparison video).
    Last edited by demagogue; 7th Nov 2011 at 01:42.

  16. #66
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Finger paintings of the insane
    That is insane. Really puts the 'generation gap' in perspective!

  17. #67
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    I wonder if they will still have all the little towns around the Los Santos area, like Dillmore and Palamino creek.

  18. #68
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Finger paintings of the insane
    I thought that too, but for some reason I doubt it. I have a feeling the countryside will be condensed quite a bit with the focus remaining on the city itself. Remember, the countryside in SA was mostly just there because the 3 cities couldn't touch.

  19. #69
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    I've heard people saying they're hoping for all three cities from San Andreas. While I'd love a current-gen version of San Fierro to drive around in, I think we'll already be lucky if there's a considerable non-urban area around Los Santos. Judging from the level of detail they had in Liberty City, I simply don't see them being able to have that level of detail in not one but three cities, at least if they're hoping to release the game any time before 2015. The trailer does indicate there'll be some countryside, though, which is already something.

    Does anyone know how Red Dead Redemption's area compares size-wise to Liberty City? I'd imagine it's big enough to contain two LC-size cities within reasonable distance of each other, but I also think that the RDR countryside required much less work in the way of detailing.

  20. #70
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    Well, rockstar have said its the biggest gta game yet, which bodes well. I really hope they have a few towns and outer urban areas surrounding the main city, it makes sense and ties in with the San Andreas setting. Also there was mention of a character from the game being "raised in the sticks" which would indicate some non urban area.
    One can hope.

  21. #71
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    I'm expecting something along the lines of a Los Santos the size and detail of GTA IV's Liberty City, plus surrounding countryside. If they include even a second major city, I'll happily eat my hat and buy multiple copies (PS3 and PC).

    I'm very curious to see what they've learnt from Red Dead Redemption, IMO their best title to date.

    Edit: Not sure whether I buy the rumours that they're bringing back the protagonists of GTA games past, but it'd be interesting if they did - and potentially even more interesting if we got to play multiple protagonists. Not sure I'd want that, at least in a main game; I like building up a connection to the one main character I play. Anyway, here's hoping we'll have a bit more information on the game itself before long.

  22. #72
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: sup
    Sorry, I didn't mean to bounce on this whole thread... ironically, between being busy with work and life, this conversation inspired me to fire up GTA4 again for a whirl. I must say, I'm not finding that any of my comments are ringing false playing through for the first time in 2 whole years. This is one uninspired but lovingly realised game.

    @ Alchy: I don't think I missed the point of what they were doing in GTA4. I think you missed the point of my post. I'm not saying the previous GTA games were a success and 4 was a failure due to there being a morally grey player character... that was true in the previous games also, but before there wasn't an attempt to tell a story of someone "trying to go on the straight and narrow". Why? Because it's boring.
    "Oh, maybe I should give this life of crime a miss."
    "Hey Niko, let's rob a place and bang some hookers."
    "Ugh, CONFLICTED." ... "OK."
    That's pretty much what every scene with Niko and anyone corrupt/criminal/etc amounts to, and it's narratively a fucking dead end. Plus we never buy that Niko's going to stop because then there'd be no game (except buying clothes, going bowling and dating, of course). That was all I was getting at. It's actually a waste of everyone's time and is not believable for a second. At least with a morally conflicted gangster (who isn't humming and hawing about being a gangster) there's the tension of not knowing whether or not you're in the good graces, if shit's going to go to the mattresses, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    @Scots, what kinds of things do you have in mind that would be refreshing to see?
    To me, I see GTA as a series with clear mechanics that everyone's familiar with & that sells...
    If you don't like the mission structure (that's the most specific thing you mentioned I can imagine where you're going), it seems like the main alternative is to open the plot-advancement with something like open objectives, you have to go out in the world and achieve them at your own pace, and achieving one opens others, although that's almost getting into "quests" and RPG territory. Anyway, that's something I was thinking about that might be an interesting variation. The other thing I was thinking about was more world simulation generally so you could, e.g., start an enterprise, buy properties & supplies, deal with competition & grift, and it all gets procedurally simulated (a real economy)... but it's not something you *had* to do, just something you could (parallel to the plot), or even more generally speaking, sandbox stuff going on persistently in the world that's not tethered down to missions but the world changes over the game procedurally by things you do. That could change the character of the game some too, but I'd like it anyway.
    All sounds awesome, and a bit too hard! The AI necessary to make the GTA gameworld "believable" beyond simple character interactions is probably a bit much to ask, but I'm open to the concept. I think what's come before from San Andreas on is basically the bargain basement version of the RPGish elements you're referring to, i.e. customisation of player character, "like"/charm scale with groups/factions/people, and so on. I'd just like to see it actually matter worth a damn in the context of a massive gangster world as opposed to being The Sims jammed into GTA.

    edit: As a somewhat unrelated addendum: I also fell away from Red Dead Redemption around the Mexico area, all Rockstar games seem to suffer from this diminishing returns syndrome where they extend what you're doing a tiny bit too long so that they can drag out the main thrust of the plot and resolution, which sucks because the missions just aren't varied enough. I must admit though that Red Dead has more mileage to burn out with me before I totally give up on it as it is at least trying some new things (cars=horses=new, loool).
    Last edited by Scots Taffer; 7th Nov 2011 at 09:17.

  23. #73
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Scots, did you play Red Dead Redemption, and if so, did its plot/characterisation work better for you? Personally I didn't feel the disconnect between story/characterisation and gameplay that much in GTA IV, but I think that's mainly because I tend not to go on rampages etc. That way it was easier for me to say that much of the time, Nico goes in unwillingly but that doesn't mean he isn't willing to defend himself if it's either him or them. However, I do think they told the "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in..." story with more success in Red Dead Redemption - doing it all because the bastards have your wife and son works pretty well as a motivator. (There were some moments in GTA IV that worked along similar lines.)

    To my mind, they also managed the potential disconnect better in both episodes, where the protagonists weren't necessarily happy to kill, but they both are loyal to their chosen tribe/father figure. Rockstar is experimenting with storytelling in games, and even if their individual games don't always succeed at bridging the story/gameplay gap, I've found all of their experiments absolutely worthwhile.

  24. #74
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: sup
    See above. I did like it, and that is a good example of playing an honourable character who's doing not-so-honourable things while not always being an out-and-out murdering asshole, but not working within a pre-defined dynamic like GTA's gangster world. I liked the fact that in Red Dead they gave you a lot more options in that regard too, being able to hogtie and bring them in etc.

  25. #75
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    I wonder whether the ability to be more stealthy would already help, as well as adapting some of the dialogue on the fly. They had subtly different dialogues if you had to redo a mission; I could imagine them tweaking the dialogues similarly on the basis of how many people you kill in a mission, how stealthy you are, whether you kill non-combatants etc. I'm not saying they should turn the game into Deus Ex, but having the characters acknowledge what happens during gameplay sections might go a long way towards making the character contradictions work better. E.g. if a murderous psycho Nico bemoans the fact that he has to go on killing, other characters could call him out on it or someone could mutter under his breath, "Look who's talkin'..."

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