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Thread: T2 fm-Cathedral of St.Vincent-6/18/2012

  1. #176
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Rockwell, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by malau View Post
    Thankyou. I would never have found it in a million years without your help.

    Does '.....follow the letter' objective not tick off until the mission is over ?
    Ditto the 'do not set off the alarm' and 'find out who framed you' ?

    As I have the special hammer you have to steal from the vault, I was expecting the first 2 to tick off as soon as I stole it ?

    I have the conspiracy evidence and the black bones ledger - I was hoping this would tick off the 'find out who framed you' objective ?

    You still need to acquire Gutsy's watch. Look in the canal
    The objective to follow the letter should've checked off as soon as you had all 8 keys and read the letter.

  2. #177
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Nottingham

    Stuck

    Looks like I will have to abandon the game. I cannot solve the problem of game closure due to the game thinking I have killed a hammer that I didn't kill. Also an objective ticked off that I had all 8 code keys but I don't have #2. It could be my objective detector is faulty. Any ideas?

  3. #178
    Moderator
    Registered: Jul 2008
    You might try replacing your copy of gen.osm with the one in the T2 folder here. You will probably have to reinstall the mission in Darkloader and start the mission over again for it to work.

  4. #179
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Nottingham

    Thanks

    Tannar,
    Actually that makes sense. I'll try it - thanks

  5. #180
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
    Actually that makes sense.
    If it helps, then something else does not make sense.

    The correct version of gen.osm is already included at least in versions 1.2 and 1.3 of the mission, although it's called martelo.osm. But it is identical to the gen.osm needed. So, why should the correct version of gen.osm be needed as well, then? Either martelo.osm is included but not used, or both are used (which would not make too much sense, right?).

  6. #181
    Summer Vacation Contest Winner 2010
    Registered: Sep 2003
    Location: PacificNorthWest...Near Forks
    Quote Originally Posted by baeuchlein View Post
    If it helps, then something else does not make sense.

    The correct version of gen.osm is already included at least in versions 1.2 and 1.3 of the mission, although it's called martelo.osm. But it is identical to the gen.osm needed. So, why should the correct version of gen.osm be needed as well, then? Either martelo.osm is included but not used, or both are used (which would not make too much sense, right?).
    Yes, the martelo.osm is a custom gen.osm which has important timing data on it. If you are having problems with the objectives, check your convict.osm. This controls the Victory Check in your game.
    Here is a package with thief scripts. The date should be 3/27/2000 on the convict.osm
    Let it overwrite the one in your T2 folder.
    http://darkloader.net/ThiefScripts.zip

  7. #182
    Member
    Registered: May 2009
    Location: Germany
    What baeuchlein says is that gen.osm is identical to martelo.osm on the binary level.
    And indeed they are identical which also means that there is nothing custom in it at all.
    Also I see in the miss20.mis the following:
    ScrModules
    martelo.osm
    convict.osm
    The mission seems to refer to both (identical) scripts.

  8. #183
    Summer Vacation Contest Winner 2010
    Registered: Sep 2003
    Location: PacificNorthWest...Near Forks
    Quote Originally Posted by gnartsch View Post
    What baeuchlein says is that gen.osm is identical to martelo.osm on the binary level.
    And indeed they are identical which also means that there is nothing custom in it at all.
    Also I see in the miss20.mis the following:

    The mission seems to refer to both (identical) scripts.
    True, but the custom part of the martelo.osm is the script timing, which is essential for proper game play. Instead of using nvscript.osm, I used TrapTimedRelay. Without the Martelo.osm, timing is messed up for essential effects. This is what I meant by custom. It has to be included in the package. The Martelo.osm is identical to the gen.osm except for the timing feature. The problem even using this sometimes creates more of mess than not using it, depending on whether or not the player is using a patched version of Thief2. I would prefer not to use it again. Darkloader seems to implement it properly, but there is a chance it wont always.
    In the future when scripting can be modified in the engine, it will probably be possible for the gamesystem to memorize timing on both unpatched and patched versions of the game.

  9. #184
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by darthsLair View Post
    True, but the custom part of the martelo.osm is the script timing, which is essential for proper game play.
    Does that mean that martelo.osm is identical to gen.osm, but their use in the mission is different? For indeed, both files are completely identical, thus if there is different timing concerning these scripts, it is not stored in the files themselves... or something went wrong with that.

    Anyway... the problem I had with version 1.2 of the mission is that the objective concering the keys from the thieves did not check off although I did everything necessary for that. I think Pedro Quintela wrote in one of the posts here that the objective was somehov tied or connected to the keys, which he thought might be responsible for the problem. If that is the case, maybe one could instead connect the objective to just obtainig the hammer in the end, since one has to use all the keys anyway in order to enter the vault.

    Something else that often went wrong was that I approached people which were having a conversation, then one of them saw me, and the conversation was aborted. This was especially irritating in the case of the Mayor and his "friends", for I entered his building from the "guests" entrance instead of the one near the canal, came around a corner and had a thief on my heels. I did not even understand that there should have been a conversation (only a replay showed this to me), thus a lot of things did not make sense to me. Later on, I entered the house again from the entrance near the canal, went up the stairs and suddenly had an "objective complete" - apparently for just looking at the picture of Carrie Fisher. This was meant to only happen if the player heard the conversation, thus I could not make head or tail of it. I dimly remember other conversations that seem to be a bit "fragile"; for example, when the mission begins, the guard delivers a long (and, frankly, boring) monologue to Garrett (to give him the opportunity to you-know-what), but later on he delivered the same speech again, to the poor fellow in the cell on the opposite side of the hallway. Must be a new method of torture.

    Replaying the "mayor conversation" was funny, though - afterwards, I introduced the people coming up the stairs to my friend the blackjack, then threw them over the wooden walls to the female waiting below. After a gasp, she commented: "Nice technique." I think Garrett should really go to the Olympics with his throwing technique.

    Other than that, there are two small problems I had with the mission. The one is that after a while, the victrola sound played in a part of the city really gets annoying. Maybe there should be longer passages where there's silence in between.

    The other strange thing was that I met two Hammers in the cathedral which did never make any sound (except for their footsteps). They appear to be mute. One of them appeared when I used a switch (I think) near a smelter in the cathedral, causing the alarm to sound. I do not know where the other one came from.

    Both problems are, of course, not critical.

  10. #185
    Summer Vacation Contest Winner 2010
    Registered: Sep 2003
    Location: PacificNorthWest...Near Forks
    Does that mean that martelo.osm is identical to gen.osm, but their use in the mission is different? For indeed, both files are completely identical, thus if there is different timing concerning these scripts, it is not stored in the files themselves... or something went wrong with that.
    Yes, just for script timing :TrapTimedRelay- so that effect sequences can be timed. Without it, pauses, and timed effects cannot work properly.

    It sounds to me that you have some convict.osm difficulty. This script module works with VictoryCheck script to enable objectives to work properly. Check your version to see if it has the latest Time Stamp on it. And check for the proper size. Even if they are the correct date and size, it could still be corrupted.

    This link will provide you with one to check or to replace a bad one:Convict.osm Date:3/27/2000

    http://darkloader.net/ThiefScripts.zip

    The conversations, once broken by the players presence, was designed this way, so the Ai would respond to the player. It would look funny, to stand there, when the enemy knows you are there and still converse to each other instead of coming after you or running. You, the thief intruded into their private domain, so there are consequences.
    The best rule of thumb is to attempt to stay in the shadows at all times. Not always easy !
    But, that is part of the fun, that is :"Getting Caught" and then deciding what to do to nullify the situation.

    What I have learned in my years playing games, is that it is necessary to repeat game play over and over until you do understand the full story, and why things happen as they do. No one, can be expected to know what is going on until after they have gone through it.
    Role playing can be tricky this way.

    With all of the different computers with their file systems, video cards, sound cards, it is near impossible to make an fm run smoothly for everyone. The simple truth is, all games, and software will always have a percentage of what we call a bug. Something fails to render properly, or script timing fails, Sound propagation fails. But, the most important thing is that you enjoyed your time in the game and had some fun entertainment.

    We thank you for playing our game !
    Last edited by darthsLair; 15th Jul 2012 at 15:37.

  11. #186
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    Ah, a new cardia mission (always an excellent visual experience), definitely first on my list to get caught up.

    Oh and a team effort to boot. This should prove to be a very enjoyable experience.

  12. #187
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    The city layout is excellent and fun with solid gameplay throughout the mission.

    The story and objectives were well done and enjoyable. Great job Darthslair

    And the Hammerite cathedral....



    I have no words to accurately describe it. It is awe-inspiring and beautiful. As always, Pedro, I am amazed by your artistry and your ability to push dromed/the dark engine beyond its limits while maintaining playability of the mission.

    This definitely is a very polished and high quality mission. Excellent work from all involved.

  13. #188
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: France (Saint-Gobain)
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceblade View Post
    The city layout is excellent and fun with solid gameplay throughout the mission.

    The story and objectives were well done and enjoyable. Great job Darthslair

    And the Hammerite cathedral....



    I have no words to accurately describe it. It is awe-inspiring and beautiful. As always, Pedro, I am amazed by your artistry and your ability to push dromed/the dark engine beyond its limits while maintaining playability of the mission.

    This definitely is a very polished and high quality mission. Excellent work from all involved.
    Hi Iceblade, its good to hear you again, im glad youre still around here, many thanks for playing this team work project and also for the compliments wich is one of the best rewards an author can receive for their work

    right now im working on another team project (30% done) for t2 and also a solo project for t2 (5% done)...

    Hopefully this year i will be able to release another team project and i hope you will play it.

    See you around...hugs

  14. #189
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    Looking forward to it.

    Now back in to find those last three secrets and that pesky 475 remaining loot.

  15. #190
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: here in the USA
    Quote Originally Posted by darthsLair View Post
    The dont do objectives, like dont kill, dont set off alarms wont check until the game is completed.
    If you have the 8 keys, and the objective has not completed, I would say check you time stamped
    date on your convict.osm, if it isn't 3/27/2000, then it wont work well with VictoryCheck script.

    Just for info, what operating system are you using?
    Thanks for the tip. I had the same problem. Got to the point where I had to use my keys and saw that I had none from the thieves. My convict.osm was dated 3/19/2000. I updated it, reinstalled the mission and now the keys are visible on the thieves. Stange though, no other mission I played had such issues. Thanks for solving this!
    Wondeful mission too. Don't mind replaying at all.

  16. #191
    Summer Vacation Contest Winner 2010
    Registered: Sep 2003
    Location: PacificNorthWest...Near Forks
    Quote Originally Posted by bobber View Post
    Thanks for the tip. I had the same problem. Got to the point where I had to use my keys and saw that I had none from the thieves. My convict.osm was dated 3/19/2000. I updated it, reinstalled the mission and now the keys are visible on the thieves. Stange though, no other mission I played had such issues. Thanks for solving this!
    Wondeful mission too. Don't mind replaying at all.
    We Thank you Bobber, and glad it worked out for you.

  17. #192
    New Member
    Registered: Aug 2012
    Impressive mission, especially the size of the architecture. Good job, guys.

    I do think the loot requirement should be a bit lower though, around 4500 perhaps, as proposed before. I solved all the puzzles and found all quest-specific items just fine, but I've been running around your enormous map for 1 or 2 hours now, all guards KO'd, just looking for really obscure loot. Having that there as an option is fine, I just think that level of scouring should be optional, even on Expert.

    Otherwise everything felt very fluid, intuitive, natural, no bugs - again, great job guys. Not being able to finish due to the loot requirement does kind of sour it at the end for me, though.

  18. #193
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: France (Saint-Gobain)
    Quote Originally Posted by ExitApparatus View Post
    Impressive mission, especially the size of the architecture. Good job, guys.

    I do think the loot requirement should be a bit lower though, around 4500 perhaps, as proposed before. I solved all the puzzles and found all quest-specific items just fine, but I've been running around your enormous map for 1 or 2 hours now, all guards KO'd, just looking for really obscure loot. Having that there as an option is fine, I just think that level of scouring should be optional, even on Expert.

    Otherwise everything felt very fluid, intuitive, natural, no bugs - again, great job guys. Not being able to finish due to the loot requirement does kind of sour it at the end for me, though.
    Hi ExitApparatus, im glad you played it and enjoy it, in order to seek well hidden loot , read the previous topics or use a tecnic that i usually use when im looking for loot, i increase the gamma to the max, this way eerything becomes very bright revealing dark places that may hold loot, hopes this helps.

    cheers
    Pedro Quintela

  19. #194
    Moderator
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: Thunder Bay, On., Canada
    I FINALLY got a chance to finish this fantastic mission! It's really well done and great fun to explore. I had to check here for help a few times but for the most part, there were enough clues to figure out what to do. I was stumped for awhile on the evidence objective. I had not found the coroner in the alley so I hadn't gotten the necessary key. Once I had that, it was clear sailing. Thanks very much to both of you for your hard work. I had a blast playing it.

  20. #195
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: France (Saint-Gobain)
    We are glad you enjoy it Linda

  21. #196
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany

    I know it's almost three months after my last post here, but real life came in between...

    Quote Originally Posted by darthsLair View Post
    It sounds to me that you have some convict.osm difficulty.
    This is not the case. Comparing Convict.osm from my game (on hard disk and CD) with the one which can be downloaded shows that these are identical on binary level. The date is correct as well.

    Meanwhile, I have played the mission again to see whether this bug always happens on my machines, and it did not. The mission did end properly this time. I did modiy the sequence of things I accomplished in the mission a bit, so that might have done the trick. Or maybe not.

    Anyway, this strongly suggests that the bug is at least triggered by something the mission "does", although this bug may originate from several other sources (the game, the different machines' hardware drivers, random things, ...) as well. No idea whether one can solve this problem or not - I have not dived too deep into building missions so far.

    The conversations, once broken by the players presence, was designed this way, so the Ai would respond to the player. It would look funny, to stand there, when the enemy knows you are there and still converse to each other instead of coming after you or running. You, the thief intruded into their private domain, so there are consequences.
    The best rule of thumb is to attempt to stay in the shadows at all times. Not always easy !
    But, that is part of the fun, that is :"Getting Caught" and then deciding what to do to nullify the situation.
    I cannot nullify that situation afterwards, only reload a saved game. And it is certainly not funny, especially since I did not even know that something went wrong (so much for reloading a saved game). I did not see any indication that I was in the enemies' hideout, either. There was not even any indication that the thief running towards me was having a conversation - the other participants were neither visible nor audible.

    What I have learned in my years playing games, is that it is necessary to repeat game play over and over until you do understand the full story, and why things happen as they do. No one, can be expected to know what is going on until after they have gone through it.
    What I have learned in my years from playing games is that this is influenced a lot by the game designers. They can do several things to at least make it easier for the player to understand things. Most of the time, that increases the fun for players who don't have enough time to play games over and over again to see whether there's something they did not understand during the previous times. Furthermore, doing the same tasks over and over is not funny but boring for many players. Replay value is influenced by many things, last but not least by the player's preferences, as well as the game designers' choices.

    [...] But, the most important thing is that you enjoyed your time in the game and had some fun entertainment.
    I'm afraid I did not enjoy much of this mission; I just did not want my last post in this thread to sound too negative. But once I began running through the same rooms over and over again, being forced to listen to the annoying victrola music in parts of the town, the fun was over pretty quickly. So, while the mission obviously worked for some people (see Nightwalker's post above, for example), it failed for several others. Fan mission authors will certainly not be able to completely prevent bugs, but they should make an attempt to do so. In my case, running through the mission over and over again without finding anything to do was far from being entertaining in any way. In this case, the objectives' bug was responsible - but that won't give me back the time I invested in this, without getting much back from that.

    Confusion, however, arose not from a bug, but from your design choice. You implemented conversations and the situations in which they happened in a way which allowed these conversations to be broken in a very easy way, and sometimes there was no real warning before (or even after) the incident happened.

    Other mission authors sometimes put a lot of effort into constructing the situations around their conversations in a way that would not allow the player to break the conversation. Sometimes, Garrett could only trigger the conversation if he was in a particular spot where he would not be seen, so if the player did not make much noise while the AIs were speakting to each other, the conversation would play as intended. On other occasions, authors created invisible walls and other things to even make it impossible for the player to break things.

    Maybe you should think about such techniques for important conversations, or implement some kind of warning for the player, like an audible warning from Garrett when he's about to disturb some people. Remember the line "I should be careful, there are likely a few traps around" from one of the original games? Several FM authors used it to warn the player when he/she is about to run into a trap-infested area.

    In the end, of course, it still is your mission and your choice. But think about it. For some players, it will mean the difference between a mission they enjoy, and one that remains unfinished because of frustration.

  22. #197
    Summer Vacation Contest Winner 2010
    Registered: Sep 2003
    Location: PacificNorthWest...Near Forks
    Sorry you had so much trouble, and did not like it. The gameplay including the conversations are setup the way it would be if you were in a real life situation. You are the thief, and everyone is a potential enemy when you enter their domain. It doesn't seem as though your perspective is coming from a thief's perpective.
    In real life when you intrude on 2 or 3 people conversing, is there a warning anywhere ?

    Your complaint of running around finding nothing and becoming frustrated, did you bother using the 4 maps I provided which were well marked with all of the important locations ?

    As far as your time spent disliking it, think of all of the time the Author's put into it to provide you with free entertainment.

    As far as bugs, the Author's spend alot of time and work to try to resolve issues, but with so many buggy computers in the world what do you expect ? No one is perfect, and further more, you cannot master any game with just a few hours of your time. You will find bugs in all games !

    Remember also, skill in playing Thief fan missions is built up over the years of playing, and mastering stealth techniques. This is a game of stealth, and to succeed at it, you stay in shadows as much as possible.

    Maybe a replay would be worth your time to obtain a different perpective ?
    Last edited by darthsLair; 12th Sep 2012 at 15:09.

  23. #198
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by darthsLair View Post
    Sorry you had so much trouble, and did not like it. The gameplay including the conversations are setup the way it would be if you were in a real life situation. You are the thief, and everyone is a potential enemy when you enter their domain. It doesn't seem as though your perspective is coming from a thief's perpective.
    My perspective was that I entered some kind of hotel. I was coming from the town side, not from the river, and I think there was something indicating this was a hotel. Some kind of guest list. I went in like any new guest. In theory, this would mean that sneaking would have been suspicious, while behaving like a customer would not. But I think the game mechanics would not allow this; furthermore, since the thieves most likely already knew about Garrett, the one who saw me would have reacted like he did anyway. So it's not a question of thief perspective here.

    In real life when you intrude on 2 or 3 people conversing, is there a warning anywhere ?
    Sort of, yes. In real life, if I do that, I can hear them speaking. That was not the case in the mission at that point. Apparently, Garrett was too far away to trigger the conversation, but for a short time was directly in the line of sight of this particular thief. (On the other hand, this still is a realistic way in which this situation would proceed, then.)

    Also, keep in mind that an author striving for perfect realism will always run into criticism like that. The game just cannot be completely realistic, like any game, and at the same time entertaining - real life itself is not entertaining all the time. On the other hand, would players play a game rather for entertainment or for realism? I think it's somewhere in between - and it's different for any player as well. That does not make it easier for mission autors to exactly hit the right spot, I'm afraid. If there is a "right spot" which is in the same location for any player...

    (On the other hand... what about realism and the very loud victrola that could not even be turned off, and would play for hours without stopping? I think someone in town would have tried to stop it from playing. Permanently.)

    Your complaint of running around finding nothing and becoming frustrated, did you bother using the 4 maps I provided which were well marked with all of the important locations ?
    I do not remember it exactly. If you're referring to the in-game maps, yes, I did look at them. But since I ran around aimlessly because of the objectives bug, that did not help.

    As far as your time spent disliking it, think of all of the time the Author's put into it to provide you with free entertainment.
    I did think about that, that's why I tried to prevent my first posting from sounding too negative. It is also the reason why these postings are so long - I try to see both perspectives on these things, mine as well as yours.

    As far as bugs, the Author's spend alot of time and work to try to resolve issues [...]
    Since you spent some time to resolve this problem, that's okay, even if you did not succeed. I have a small program I wrote myself more than ten years ago, and it still has a bug which I have never been able to find. Sometimes, things just don't work in real life. But on the other hand, you certainly cannot expect me to cheer now because the bug in the mission could not be resolved. We'll both have to live with this situation.

    Remember also, skill in playing Thief fan missions is built up over the years of playing, and mastering stealth techniques. This is a game of stealth, and to succeed at it, you stay in shadows as much as possible.
    Keep in mind that there are different styles of play, even for a thief game. I am far from playing Thief like a first-person shooter (I abandoned that style of playing during the first of more than ten years of playing Thief so far), but there are times in a mission when sneaking is the only way to master a situation, there are times when sneaking is not an option (try to sneak across a chasm instead of jumping over it!), and there are times when sneaking might not be the only way to proceed.

    I think our play styles are just very different, so some missions will fit your play style very well, while others rather fit mine.

    Maybe a replay would be worth your time to obtain a different perpective ?
    As I stated in my post, I already replayed it and the bug did not happen. I don't think a third replay would do anything good.

    Anyway... By now, I do understand why you implemented the conversations the way you did. I do not lightly forget about the time and effort authors put into their missions either, especially since they do it for free. On the other hand, if this "free entertainment" does not work for a player, then he/she is not going to be happy and write an enthusiastic posting about it. Players expect to be entertained, and when that does not work, they're not happy, not even when it's all for free. So there are consequences, as you said it yourself. If you do not like them, then the only way to avoid these would be not to publish any mission at all.

    Don't misunderstand me, I do not wish you to stop publishing missions! But there is no way to publish a mission and being absolutely certain to never get negative criticism. Accept it. This is a very harsh truth, but that's the way it is. So, don't stop building missions - but expect some criticism even if you did anything you could to provide players with something worth their time. Every now and then, it just won't work. That's life, for any author. He has to accept it, and the player has to accept, likewise, that he/she may not like some mission because of bugs, because of the mission not fitting his/her preferred style of play, and so on.

  24. #199
    New Member
    Registered: Feb 2012
    Location: Germany
    Can't get away without commenting this one. I had a long time walking around and searching for one key of the thiefs and the last missing loot due to the extensive size of this roomy mission. Maybe a split into two (or three) missions and little less hard loot requirements would be helpful -- so more rooms and details could be added to the city, too. On the other side, I found the story well elaborated (especially the part to prove Garret is unguilty) and really liked some gimmicks, for example the guard award for benny. Also this mission had a wonderful and great architekture. Over all, well done! Good job guys.

  25. #200
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Latvia
    Thanks for the great mission, I absolutely loved it!
    What I liked the most is that in the end I was able to navigate to any place easily, like walking my home town streets. Thanks to reasonable and distinguishable architecture and extremely helpful maps.
    Mission authors, please do add some maps!
    Thanks again, darthsLair!

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