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Thread: I'M MOVING TO CANADA

  1. #1
    Cuddly little misanthropic hate machine
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: 4 doors down, bad side of town

    I'M MOVING TO CANADA

    okay not really and if i did it wouldn't be because of SCOTUS upholding obamacare which i'm rather okay with

    avoiding fb for the rest of the day

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: Michigan--gotta live somewhere
    Thursday is one of my no-FB days, so I'll be happy to not see you there today.

    Also am glad about the Supreme Court's ruling today. "Repeal" will quickly become the GOP's rallying cry for the Romney campaign.

  3. #3
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: Yangon, Burma
    I'll cross post what I posted today (maybe more to come...) --

    A big determinant in premium amount is the size of the pool (the larger, the more risk hedged, the lower you can keep them), which was most of the whole point of an individual mandate. The other thing is costs... Right now (according to my doctor friends [actually fett's comment, lol, but whatever]) hospitals have to raise costs & cut services to pay for uninsured patients. So there's two birds with one stone. So premiums will go down, hospital costs will go down, and hospital services will go up... The only bad thing is it's a mandate and if you don't pick up insurance you get taxed to pay for what's effectively functioning as a government service through the private market, gasp.
    I want to write more about something that always struck me odd, ok horrifying. I'll spit out something now and maybe clean it up later... My mentor in law school was a professor named Dick Stewart who is like the guru on administrative law with market mechanisms, and he represented the Republican Party of the 1970s-80s (the rational part, sans Reagan's voodoo economics)... Market mechanisms are a way to do some governance things and still get some of the efficiencies that market forces work out (as opposed to pure command & control administration). So like he always argued for cap & trade for emitting air pollution because you can reduce the same amount of pollution for waaaaay less cost.

    Anyway, that same line is why individual mandates for health insurance came out of the Republican Party and, at the time, were practically the poster child of what the Republican Party represented... We can do governance through market mechanisms, rationalize some of this mess & save a ton of money in the deal.

    What really strikes me now is how fiercely the Reps of today (Tea Party folk) went after the individual mandates as somehow really alien to Conservatism, which IMO is really worrying what they're trying to say. And the fact they went after it with the Commerce Clause! Using that ban-hammer of all things to my mind is like saying "The private market is somehow tainted when the gov't gets involved. Government does not need to be using private markets in administration." And sometimes you hear them accuse conservative fans of the mandates as RINOs (Republicans in name only) -- And I can only think to myself WTF?! Are you seriously trying to make the case that Republicans are now against using private markets for some governance tasks. That's the terrible betrayal?? What the hell do Republicans want if not that?

    It's just part of the same old story that Reps have become completely derailed from classic conservative principles... They aren't just at war with government, but governance altogether. It's like they're saying they're not only against health care being under government control, but being a governance issue at all... I guess because Alexander Hamilton didn't think about it 250 years ago... hell if I know.

    As an aside, of course the real issue here is that, if we wrote the constitution today there'd be no question that the right to health would be a core constitutional principle written right in -- it's one of the most established rights in human rights law there is -- and we wouldn't have to play this silly gerrymandering game to find a niche for governing it in its creaky old text.

    Ok that's all the soapbox I got in me for now... Maybe I'll post more later...

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2007
    Location: Alberta, Canada
    I saw this earlier today and nearly had a hernia laughing about it.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/peopl...e-of-obamacare

    now, I don't think i'm speaking to the majority of the crowd here, but man, Americans have got to be the most ignorant group of people I know of. (like I said, probably not the lot of you Americans on here, since you pay attention) but a complete lack of understanding of the world out side of the country or state makes for some surprisingly moronic comments.

    Canada is a mixed-market economic country, We are right of centre, but even with the Tories in power, whom I support, we are not completely right-wing. Our health-care system has resembled obama-care for decades, I have never paid out of pocket for a single medical expense. So moving to Canada to avoid Obama-care is.... well... completely misinformed. (i'm not poking fun at you Dethy, you already said it wouldn't be the reason you'd move)

    I really don't understand the controversy though. Why the hell are Americans so damn scared of any government involvement. Is the ghost of the USSR and the stigma of communism in the 1950s and 60s that horribly ingrained in you that anything that resembles a mixed market economy is something to be shunned and avoided like "them dirty commies." Having social programs does not make you a socialist state. Canada isn't socialist despite its government involvement in the free market. I just don't get why so many people complain about not forcing people to chose between which fingers to re-attach after a work accident because of what their insurance will cover. It's madness.

    having said that. I understand the concerns about being forced to buy into the insurance plan and getting fined if you don't. I didn't know about that before reading the link. but still... i am forced to pay my taxes so that my health care is paid for, so I'm already in that boat, and I'm not at all worried about it.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Procrastination, Australia
    They chose such a poor word for that fee. Everyone jumps on the fact its a fine. I wonder if they'd have preferred it was called a tax. Probably largely the same result, bitching wise.
    Still, they even caught my mum out with that one (ardent socialist and long range Obama fan) "OMG a fine?! that's awful!"
    No mum, here it's called the Medicare Levy. Same thing pretty much. If you don't want to pay it (and your income is high enough) you buy in to private.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitions Advocate View Post
    I saw this earlier today and nearly had a hernia laughing about it.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/peopl...e-of-obamacare

    now, I don't think i'm speaking to the majority of the crowd here, but man, Americans have got to be the most ignorant group of people I know of. (like I said, probably not the lot of you Americans on here, since you pay attention) but a complete lack of understanding of the world out side of the country or state makes for some surprisingly moronic comments.

    I really don't understand the controversy though. Why the hell are Americans so damn scared of any government involvement. Is the ghost of the USSR and the stigma of communism in the 1950s and 60s that horribly ingrained in you that anything that resembles a mixed market economy is something to be shunned and avoided like "them dirty commies." Having social programs does not make you a socialist state. Canada isn't socialist despite its government involvement in the free market. I just don't get why so many people complain about not forcing people to chose between which fingers to re-attach after a work accident because of what their insurance will cover. It's madness.

    having said that. I understand the concerns about being forced to buy into the insurance plan and getting fined if you don't. I didn't know about that before reading the link. but still... i am forced to pay my taxes so that my health care is paid for, so I'm already in that boat, and I'm not at all worried about it.

    I'd suggest turning off the TV and actually talking to people. What scares most people you talk to isn't government involvement per se, but the growing partnership between corporate America and government.....something that the current incarnation of the health bill benefits, not hinders.


    Overall though, the rulings have been wacky all week. A lot of the decisions remind me of the warped logic used to arrive at the Citizen's united case(which I now agree with Burn's assessment of).


    edit: making it even more bizarre, it appears that Roberts changed his verdict at the last minute

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    As I noticed a while ago, what most people don't realize is that they are confusing healthCARE with healthINSURANCE. There is a big difference.

    If I was forced to get private healthcare and could thus get my doctor visits and rudimentary procedures done, I'd be all over it. But that's not how it works; insurance plans are emergency health insurance, not preventative care. There's deductibles, and many of the government programs (like Health Saving Account) actually legally require a high-premium plan (plus, many of those plans also do away with "free" doctor visits).

    So the end result is that, I am paying for my insurance, while STILL paying for my health care like all my doctor vistis, procedure or drugs, because I simply never surpass the deductible. Where do do all my premiums go? Into the profit margins of insurance companies, where else. And now, if I don't give my money to those insurance companies for NO BENEFIT, I will get fined taxed. Great!

    Lets look at an example: I broke my arm! Oh but luckily, I was paying my premiums and am covered, right? WRONG. The few 1000s I will spend in hospital fees will not reach my deductible or out of pocket costs. I still have to pay it MYSELF. So what did paying all those premiums do for me? NOTHING.

    Again, if this was proper healthCARE I would be all for it. But it's not, it's forced emergency health insurance from private corporations.

    Also a funny comment I saw somewhere else: Microsoft should lobby the government to pass a tax on everyone who doesn't buy an XBox. Cause you know, XBox reduces stress, and shit...

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Oct 1999
    Location: Australia
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitions Advocate View Post
    So moving to Canada to avoid Obama-care is.... well... completely misinformed. (i'm not poking fun at you Dethy, you already said it wouldn't be the reason you'd move)
    That's really not what he said, though

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Procrastination, Australia
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakoob View Post
    So the end result is that, I am paying for my insurance, while STILL paying for my health care like all my doctor vistis, procedure or drugs, because I simply never surpass the deductible. Where do do all my premiums go? Into the profit margins of insurance companies, where else. And now, if I don't give my money to those insurance companies for NO BENEFIT, I will get fined taxed. Great!
    Doesn't that just put you in the bracket for whom this bill really changes nothing? That was most people from memory. If you are really unhappy with your situation and healthy the idea is you drop out and take the 'fine' and save some money. You still get some emergency care (I think) and can opt back in any time.
    I get people being mad this reform doesn't do everything, but many seem to say that not changing everything is the same as making things worse which doesn't seem to be the case.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2009
    This appears to completely screw people who, like me, are medically disabled (but not recognized as such by the U.S. government) and thus unemployed (but not receiving any assistance from the government). I mean, even worse screwed than "not being able to afford medical service," like it already is. Now it's "not able to afford medical service" AND "being fined for not being able to afford medical service," if I understand aright. I don't really care what you call it. Fine/tax/fee/baksheesh. Amounts to the same thing--another way of screwing poor people who are already being screwed. Fuck you. Fuck you very much.

    Of course, it's entirely possible that I have no clue how this is actually going to work, but I'm pretty much willing to take a bet that it won't work out for the good of those who need a break. I'm far from a Republican, but it looks to me as though Mr. Obama has taken some bribes from some insurance companies. From what I'm hearing, they're the ones who will benefit the most (and possibly the only ones who will really benefit much at all). Maybe I should move to Canada, because this socialism thing is looking better and better. Not this fake socialism which is really cleverly-disguised rampant capitalism. Grr. "Steals from the poor and gives to the rich--stupid bitch!"
    Last edited by Sg3; 30th Jun 2012 at 00:06.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzman View Post
    Doesn't that just put you in the bracket for whom this bill really changes nothing? That was most people from memory. If you are really unhappy with your situation and healthy the idea is you drop out and take the 'fine' and save some money. You still get some emergency care (I think) and can opt back in any time.
    I get people being mad this reform doesn't do everything, but many seem to say that not changing everything is the same as making things worse which doesn't seem to be the case.

    Err it is making things worse: it's making me pay money for not getting any benefit from it at all.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakoob View Post
    Err it is making things worse: it's making me pay money for not getting any benefit from it at all.
    This. "Can't get medical service because I can't afford insurance" sucks, but it's better than "can't get medical service because I can't afford insurance and am being fined for not being able to afford insurance," or "can't afford medical service even though I have insurance, because this insurance is worthless because the deductible is so high, but I can't get rid of this worthless money-sink of an insurance policy because I can't afford the fine for not having insurance." See? This "tax" for the poor is actually a move away from socialism and towards unrestricted capitalism, as far as I can tell.
    Last edited by Sg3; 30th Jun 2012 at 00:21.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Procrastination, Australia
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakoob View Post
    Err it is making things worse: it's making me pay money for not getting any benefit from it at all.
    Where, though? Aren't you paying for the not-great-cover policy already? Did the bill actually change that apart from compelling you to do so now?
    Seriously, I don't know.
    (one thing I have learned from this is the US heathcare/insurance system is an impenetrable morass of shit that makes no sense any way you slice it. This seems like only the first step in a very long line of reforms (that will be fought tooth and nail all the way))

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzman View Post
    Where, though? Aren't you paying for the not-great-cover policy already? Did the bill actually change that apart from compelling you to do so now?
    Even if he's already paying for the high-deductible insurance already, the new law will remove his option to quit it without paying a fine. I think it's pretty self-explanatory that losing the "quit paying for something that doesn't do any good" option is making things worse, not better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muzman View Post
    This seems like only the first step in a very long line of reforms (that will be fought tooth and nail all the way)
    Given that this new law only helps the already-bloated-with-money insurance companies (which are not much more than highly-successful legalized scammers), and perhaps the richer taxpayers who aren't struggling to afford medicine, I don't see how it could possibly be considered a positive reform. It harms the poor and helps the rich. W.T.F. Well, that's the way of the world--always has been. Always will be. Shit.
    Last edited by Sg3; 30th Jun 2012 at 01:08.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzman View Post
    Where, though? Aren't you paying for the not-great-cover policy already?
    No. I don't have health insurance exactly because all the plans will make me pay big premiums while NOT COVERING MY MEDICAL NEEDS AT ALL. And if I go with the government-sponsored plans... I am paying like 30% extra premiums for even LESS coverage (not even a goddamn ordinary doctor visit is covered on them). Fuck that.

    After the Health Reform mandate kicsk in 2014, shitty coverage will stay shitty, I will still not be getting health insurance, except I will also have to pay for $600 fine for not voluntarily GIVING AWAY my money away to insurance companies.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Procrastination, Australia
    re: further up
    The fine for opting out is not more than two percent of your annual income. For that you still get hospital visits and other things (from what I gather). Two percent, for about the same non cover you were getting before, for more presumably (but no building a no-claim bonus or anything I guess) But they can't bar you from the system for not having insurance like they could before, in other words.
    That's the idea. You're paying for base government cover. Then there's subsidies and rebates to knock down other insurance costs. There's a lot of low-income benefits to this bill. That was the whole idea; To address the uninsured problem.
    Yes entrenched insurance company relationships still apply, but first and foremost they have to lower base costs and force them to take riskier clients again. 100yrs of this stuff can't be removed overnight (unless you have a benevolent absolute dictatorship)

    I can see some folks paying a little more at certain margins. I haven't run any numbers or anything. Most people still seem to be bristling over the fine part though, when their taxes probably get changed every year and they don't give a shit.
    Last edited by Muzman; 30th Jun 2012 at 01:22.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Procrastination, Australia
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakoob View Post
    No. I don't have health insurance exactly because all the plans will make me pay big premiums while NOT COVERING MY MEDICAL NEEDS AT ALL. And if I go with the government-sponsored plans... I am paying like 30% extra premiums for even LESS coverage (not even a goddamn ordinary doctor visit is covered on them). Fuck that.

    After the Health Reform mandate kicsk in 2014, shitty coverage will stay shitty, I will still not be getting health insurance, except I will also have to pay for $600 fine for not voluntarily GIVING AWAY my money away to insurance companies.
    There was talk I saw about how the independent types probably have it the worst. Since most of the country either falls into the work-plan or rich bastard-plan category, they're mostly untouched. While ex students and singles, flexible types, are caught in the middle.
    It's tough, but I can see the long term plan (I think). There's a million state v fed obstacles to any major reform. There's no money or political will to set up a public option. You've got to rearrange things a bit to break the cost cycle a little and make room for public health. Someone is going to lose.
    These people probably should move to Canada for the socialism, sadly.

  18. #18
    I have been somewhat amused at all the people talking about moving to Canada over obamacare.

    While I will concede that Canada is in many ways a far less statist society than the US (For example, the Canadians are NOT recording every single email, phone call, and text their citizens send), these people have a short memory. Remember when the horrible socialized healthcare of Canada was the American "right"'s big talking point?

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    Muzman , he whole point is, there is NO BASE GOVERNMENT COVER. It's just taking the shitty and unaffordable plans, and FORCING you to pick one.

    For 100/month I can have the pleasure of STILL PAYING initial $6000 out of pocket before insurance kicks in, and measly rudimentary 2-3 doctor visits at a 50% copay. For 130/month, I have the pleasure of using the Government-provided Health Savings Account, which still makes me pay initial $6000 of all my medical expenses, AND 100% of the doctor visit fees. It's actually a WORSE DEAL than the already shitty alternative.

    In my (and many others) case, this bill only works for emergencies. In which case, why are we pretending it's "universal health care"? It's not.

    Christ, how hard is this to get???

    Quote Originally Posted by Muzman View Post
    re: further up
    The fine for opting out is not more than two percent of your annual income.
    Or $600, greater of the two.

    For that you still get hospital visits and other things (from what I gather).*
    * After $6000 deductible, with 50% copay. other restrictions may apply.
    Last edited by Yakoob; 30th Jun 2012 at 02:01.

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    It's called the Single Payer system.

    The collecting of premiums and the disbursal of funds, along with deciding what types and level of care is provided, is a state responsibility. It's not a perfect system but it means that for less than $80 per month you have access to all manner of life saving and health improving services.

    No need to choose between the mortgage and an appendectomy.

    Take the money spent on litigation denying the payment of benefits and apply it to actual services. The private insurance companies are robbing you blind. Tell them to fuck off already.

  21. #21
    Cuddly little misanthropic hate machine
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: 4 doors down, bad side of town
    i thought single payer was diablo 3?

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Quote Originally Posted by dethtoll View Post
    i thought single payer was diablo 3?
    Muahahahaha..!

    Wait. Did I think that or actually say it?

  23. #23
    Knows his stuff
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Can't wait for this debate to swing back into action again when the DNS server comes back up. Looks like the "Obamacare is a bad thing" side is winning right now honestly, which is a bit disheartening since I kinda like Obama. The whole socialist healthcare thing is working out pretty good for us here in Finland, but maybe it's not the right thing for America? I don't know! Eagerly awainting people who actually know what's what or at least have lots of opinions about this stuff to get back on here and start shouting at each other again.

  24. #24
    So how did you feel about Dubya and why?

  25. #25
    Knows his stuff
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    boo! hiss!

    Oh I didn't like that guy at all. Not just because he came off as a bumbling idiot who only was where he was because of money and daddy's friends and because he knew how to fill people's heads with religious mumbojumbo. He also started that war for oil. And didn't sign the Kyoto protocol. And kept gay folks from getting married and threw weed-smokers in jail. Seemed like every other week back then you'd hear about some nefarious scheme him and his lair of evildoers had cooked up. Obama on the other hand... well I have no idea what he's been up to since he entered office. And when it comes to US presidents, no news is good news! At least he's not fucking anything up horribly, until now perhaps. Yakoob's accounts of things up there paints a rather depressing picture of things only getting worse for those who already have it bad.

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