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Thread: Are You Effing Kidding Me?

  1. #76
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    Theoretically, C-3PO and R2-D2 wouldn't have to be CGI. Or Darth Vader for that matter.

  2. #77
    Mistaken for a man
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitions Advocate View Post
    I've seen people talk about how Joss Whedon should be the director.. I don't think that's a good idea.
    I think it's a fabulous idea But not with any of the Firefly cast, no no no no no!

    Quote Originally Posted by fett View Post
    3) Because Lucas in an interview (and the new whatshername that's in charge now) stated that they would be working from Lucas' previously conceived ideas and notes for ep 7-9.
    Seems that story was going to be told anyway, and after 1, 2 and 3 I'm happier if Disney does it.

  3. #78
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Finger paintings of the insane
    Quote Originally Posted by nicked View Post
    Taking Star Wars away from senile consta-meddler George Lucas is bad because........?
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    Yeah, as a long time SW fan, I had pretty much had it with Lucas, so it's good to see that A) more movies will be made, and B) that someone besides Lucas will get a crack at it.

    This is a very good thing.

    As long as they don't fuck it up.

    (Had to double check and make sure this wasn't an article from The Onion).
    Quote Originally Posted by fett View Post
    No wait, what? There doesn't need to be anymore SW movies. The last three were so fucked up it would have been better left alone. What the hell is Episode 7 going to be about? The more serious fans have cannonized Zahn's follow up trilogy, so now I guess that is going to be shit all over as well. Fuck Lucas, and fuck Disney.
    I agree with nicked and especially our own Brethren and betrayer. They said pretty much exactly what I was thinking when I heard the news this morning on the local news. (Ha!, one caveat...it was the early, early news & I may or may not have been entirely clear-headed yet!).

    Anyhoo, what is the downside? As I always say when people piss & moan about a series of games, shows, movies, comics, books, etc... being drawn out longer than deemed necessary, the answer is surprisingly simple; fucking ignore it. Pretend the shit never got released and go on with your life. Butt-hurt because a new trilogy is being produced? Give me a break, fett.

    Jeez, once upon a time the mere mention of the Disney empire chilled me to the core, but my GOD has Disney upped their game. They have seriously created, produced, or collaborated on some amazing shit in the last decade and I see no reason to believe a 4 BILLION $ investment will be thrown to the b-team.

    Most folks I know were growing tired of the Lucas formula. Some new blood could breathe new life into the beloved franchise. I am sure Lucas will be at the very least a consultant on the production(s), so it will stay canon and not contradict any previous plots.

    Disney has the Ducats to make a AAA production, and after spending all that cheese, I guarantee they will make sure to release a blockbuster to at least recoup their investment.

    I am not super into Star Wars these days, but a Disney production actually piques my interest, whereas a Lucas production would have had me eye-rolling and most likely completely skipping.

  4. #79
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by fett View Post
    5) So my burning question remains - do you really wan to see other people playing these characters and carrying on a story that should have ended with Anakin's redemption and death?
    Not particularly - but it is possible to pull this off. Easy? No. But to me this is just not the disaster you seemed to see it as in your initial post. I share your apprehensions, but after the prequels I know not to expect anything much from this. I'm not emotionally invested in whether they make more Star Wars films or not, but I'm willing to have them surprise me.

    Also, I'm actually not all that worried about them working from Lucas' story ideas. As long as they get a good writer who knows what to keep, what to change and what to trash (hey, it worked with Empire after all...) and keep George as the ideas man only, I don't think this needs to spell out doom. And if they get crap writers and bow to each of Lucas' wishes, well, I'll know what to expect.

  5. #80
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest

    it's a sin, it's a SINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

    Disney will come to my bunker, kidnap me, and then deliver me to a movie theater where I will be forced to watch Episode VII Clockwork Orange style. As you can see, ignoring the new episodes is simply ... not an option.

  6. #81
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2007
    Location: Sevastapol Station
    Quote Originally Posted by zacharias View Post
    Oh stop it with this 'Lynch should have done ROTJ' nonsense. It's not his thing, he would never have done it in a million years. And even if in some alternate universe he's directing ROTJ he's going so perversely weird with it deliberately that the studio is stepping in and putting the kybosh on his version anyway.
    Honestly, I had never seen this interview here. All I ever heard him say over and over again was that he thought Lucas should've directed it because it was his creation.

    I never said Lynch was obligated to or wanted to and was forced not to. I'm just saying he would've done a superb job if he had applied his Idiom to the franchise. Everything we're talking about here is a "what if" so I can carry on with a bit of nonsense if I want.

    @ fett

    I get your point. The only Starwars books I ever read were the Han Solo trilogy and the X-wing books. I agree. an X wing movie would be pretty ace. Let the main characters rest. A bit of focus on something other than Jedi would be most welcome, but I think you're right, that won't happen.

  7. #82
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2000
    Yeah, sorry i should have included a smiley, as i wasn't being deliberately narky..it is nonsense though

  8. #83
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Bookmark this thread, so when the next movie comes out we can go back and see who eats their words. I think you're all high as Baumgartner's balloon (except fett).

    First, it's fucking Disney, who are like the EA of movies only worse because they have near monopoly power. Disney is a sausage factory, not a creative enterprise. They specialise in grinding out a steady volume of sequels and formula driven stuff which is safe but mediocre. They ran out of ideas in the 1990s and ever since then they have sustained themselves by signing distribution deals and buying up proven franchises. Disney's execs see it as an IP holding company and their business model is to milk every drop out of their back catalog.

    I blame them for killing the golden goose of creativity at Pixar. The last two films in the pipe when Disney bought Pixar were Wall-E and Up, and these turned out to be the last fresh ideas out of the studio. Under Disney's reign we've gotten Cars 2, Toy Story 3, Brave (a Disney formula flick), and in production now are more sequels to Monsters and Nemo. We haven't seen the Disney effect on Marvel yet because recent releases like The Avengers were half way through production when Disney acquired them. But I don't expect it will be an improvement. For those defending Disney, what good shit have they put out recently besides stuff they acquired which was already under production?

    Second, it's still fucking George Lucas. There's no way in a million years that Disney is going to go off on a new path and invest $150-200M in a new story line and new characters when they can get a safe, predictable ROI by carrying on with the existing Lucas story. It's just not in the company DNA. Disney considers its IP, particularly its characters, to be its biggest assets. They're not going to throw them out the window. And if the next movie is going to come out in 2015, then a lot of writing and early production work has already been done by Lucas and/or his people. Disney isn't likely to throw that out or put a new team on it now.

    Third, the kind of Star Wars movie that we'd like isn't necessarily the one with maximum market appeal. It seems that most people I know who were born since the late 80s tend to prefer Ep 1-3 over the original trilogy. Who do you think Lucas and Disney are more interested in appealing to, those of us who grew up with Ep 4-6 or the younger generation who grew up with Ep 1-3? I'm betting the latter.
    Last edited by heywood; 1st Nov 2012 at 06:55.

  9. #84
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    @heywood: I don't think anyone's saying that it will definitely be awesome. They're just saying that fett's going Chicken Little here. At worst we'll end up with something as useless as the prequels, which is what we're expecting to happen anyway, so we're no worse off than we are now. At best some interesting, cool stuff might come out of Lucas having less control over his fictional universe than he does now.

    Your points re: Pixar (and by extension Disney, at least to some extent?), while correct, are also overblown. Brave and Toy Story 3 were no Wall-e or The Incredibles, but they were still very good examples of craftsmanship and storytelling. Was Cars 2 that much worse than the first Cars movie?

  10. #85
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Toy Story 3 came out as good as it possibly could have, and in technical merit it was better than Toy Story 2 which was better than Toy Story 1. But I'm ambivalent about it and wouldn't have bothered watching it if my wife hadn't insisted. I'll admit it held my attention, but that's not saying much and it wasn't memorable. It just seemed like more of the same thing. I'd honestly rather just watch the original again.

    The original Cars was a decent movie. Not as clever as their best stuff, but better than most of the shit that DreamWorks Animation churns out. Cars 2 was just bleh.

    Brave is the one I'm most disappointed in, since it wasn't a sequel. The problem with Brave is that it seemed like a typical Disney formula flick and lacked the things that made Pixar films special. I struggled to stay with it.

  11. #86
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    New studio, new opportunities, new actors.
    I bet it's gonna be just as awesome as the 2009 Star Trek movie (the one with Pine and Quinto).

  12. #87
    Moderator
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Everywhere
    I don't see how I'm being Chicken Little. I've admitted it could turn out great, it could be something new and fantastic, that I would welcome a new, well told story.

    But the "sky is falling" part that wasn't being discussed previous to this page is exactly the stuff heywood mentions. There is no "new" story with "new" characters being created by a "new" writer. They have specifically stated they are using Lucas' notes for these episodes which we already know continue on from ROTJ. So all this "YAY IT WILL BE BETTER" comes off like sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "lalalalala." You're not listening to what is being said - you're concocting some imaginary redemption scenario that simply doesn't exist - because Lucas and Disney have both said that it doesn't - not because I'm having nerd rage.

    And heywood is exactly right. Up was the last great Pixar film TS3 was fine, but everything since then has been an utter Transformer style shitpile. Was there honestly any difference between Brave and Tangled? Not only did they take a real-life story and make it so fantastical that most people lost all suspension of disbelief (hurrrr, her mom turned into a bear because she was a BAD GIRL), they did it on the heels of films that created compelling characters out of cars, toys, rats, and monsters in the closet. Pixar has been going down the crapper for about 4 years now. I still love what they do, but it's nowhere near as good. And like heywood said, Disney gets no credit for the Avengers. I will tip my hat to them for the new Muppet Movie - fantastic job. But otherwise, there's not much to recommend here in terms of taking a dying IP and "saving it." Disney plays it safe, and don't intend to stray very far from Lucas' original intent. Hopefully they'll see the error of that in the months to come because this has the potential to be awesome. But right now, if they stay this course, it would be near impossible to pull off.

    Now the nerd rage part: Yes, there is something to lose. The prequels can be ignored because the original films stand/stood without them. Maybe the same will be true for the sequels. But because it's the same characters, that's going to be very difficult to ignore. What's lost is the "sanctity" (admitted nerd rage here) of the originals. But worse, IMO is the obliteration of the EU, which has done a more than spectacular job of carrying on the stories of those characters. Young prequel fans don't give two shits about Han and Leia, or Lando - yet, those are the characters that (apparently) we will be returning to. So not only will it not appeal to younger fans as much, it will alienate and further piss-off the hard-core older fans that have kept the EU alive with money and attention for 20 years. I have no idea who the hell is supposed to win in this situation except Disney stockholders. /nerd rage
    Last edited by fett; 1st Nov 2012 at 11:44.

  13. #88
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2000
    Location: tall bikes and tattoos
    Quote Originally Posted by fett View Post
    I don't see how I'm being Chicken Little.
    My accusation of you being a shouting man on the street corner is not because you're skeptical of this whole development (which is understandable), and not even because you define your complaints so rigidly that they're easy to knock down (hey, it happens to the best of us), but instead because you're shifting your anger from target to target as a means of HANGING ONTO YOUR ANGER. Your posts are toe stub outbursts in digital form and it's fucking exhausting to witness.

    So, anyway, let's unpack your most recent target, which is...Pixar? Both Toy Story 3 and Up were post-Disney acquisition, the latter of which you praised. Pixar have some interesting non-sequel projects in the pipeline (a Dia de los Muertos film from the guy who directed Toy Story 3 and Ratatouille? Yeah, I'll take that). And besides, it isn't like Pixar didn't release mediocrity back when they were independent from Disney (Cars, anyone?)

    Additionally, the people making the calls within Pixar are the same people responsible for their greatest successes, so don't blame the Disney institution for anything Pixar is currently doing, good or bad.

    Anyway, the news Star Wars movies may be good or may be bad. They face the exact same issues that the resurrection of any popular franchise faces, and as such they might get it wrong or they might get it right.

  14. #89
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2000
    Location: tall bikes and tattoos
    So yeah, lets move on from the emotional explosions and talk new Star Wars. What do we know about them?

    They're sequels to the original trilogy, which makes sense and is totally doable.

    They're sticking to the outlines written up by Lucas, which I think is a good idea (Lucas has been the center of Star Wars, for good or bad, so I like the idea of him playing some part while still being kept in check)

    To what degree are they going to feature the original characters? Do we know? I do think the further adventures of Luke, Han, and Leia would be a mistake, but I don't see why they couldn't play peripheral roles in a series focusing on the next generation.

  15. #90
    Mistaken for a man
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by fett View Post
    Now the nerd rage part: Yes, there is something to lose. The prequels can be ignored because the original films stand/stood without them. Maybe the same will be true for the sequels. But because it's the same characters, that's going to be very difficult to ignore. What's lost is the "sanctity" (admitted nerd rage here) of the originals.
    You mean they lose their "sanctity" because of Disney?

  16. #91
    Moderator
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Everywhere
    The word "sanctity" is stupid and I don't know what other word to use. Legacy, maybe? Simply, I'm saying that most things that were good in the beginning are better left alone. Other than Batman, I can't name many IP's that improved with more tinkering. That's ALL I'm saying.

    Stitch - Where have I re-directed my anger? It's not even anger, it's confusion. I've been consistently saying that new ideas/characters/story = fine. Re-casting/continuing from Lucas' notes from the end of ROTJ = train wreck. Pretty much what you said in the last sentence of your post there. The point of my confusion (or anger, if you want) is everyone saying "Yay, it's going to be different and therefore better," when it's been specifically stated that it will NOT be different - that it's based on Lucas' notes, and will not be a "new" story, but rather a continuation. I hope that changes soon, but in the meantime, that's exactly what you're saying is a bad idea yourself. I don't see how we even disagree on that. Though I do disagree with your assessment that Lucas' involvement is a good thing. Lucas had the original seed, but judging from the prequels, it was people like Ben Burtt, Lawrence Kasdan, etc. that kept him in check. I can see where having new blood will definitely create a good environment that curbs the more excessive tendencies in his treatments. But to me, the first step in that is to ditch anything he's written altogether, solving the whole original cast member problem to boot. And for the record, these are not "toe-stub" outbursts. I've had this view every since reading the Thrawn trilogy and realizing that the EU was going to be a legit, equally creative and exciting continuation of the saga, possibly even moreso than films, given the direction Lucas' was heading in with ROTJ. I've *never* wanted sequel films, and have clammored for stories with new or peripheral characters in this universe as far back as the early 90's. I'm a Star Wars nerd to the nth degree - this is not the first time I've thought through these scenarios or had this conversation.

    I guess we also disagree about Pixar - I thought Cars was great. In fact, I thought everything they did was great up until Cars 2. Brave was a nightmare. Yes, it's the same people calling the shots, but if you can't see that Brave was distinctly "Disney" then you haven't seen near enough bad Disney films. Maybe they'll come out of the slump, but they have *mostly* sequels in the works now, just like Disney does more sequels and IP purchases for that purpose than original fare these days. AND they don't know when to quit. We didn't need Pirates 4, Cars 2, Little Mermaid 12 and so on. They release more direct to video shit-fests than any company in existence.

  17. #92
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2000
    Location: tall bikes and tattoos
    Moving right along:

    Mark Hamill says that he and Carrie Fisher have known about the new trilogy for a year

    And fett, I'm not trying to blow you off as much as withdraw from the "what fett thinks right now" aspect of this conversation. Arguing against it isn't going anywhere.
    Last edited by Stitch; 1st Nov 2012 at 15:24.

  18. #93
    Mistaken for a man
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by fett View Post
    Simply, I'm saying that most things that were good in the beginning are better left alone.
    But what's this angst over Disney, since Lucas obviously was not going to leave things alone anyway?

  19. #94
    Moderator
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Everywhere
    Good point, Vasquez. I really would rather just about anyone do this than George Lucas. Unfortunately, they're not doing it without him - they're using his material and he will be a consultant. I'd love it if they boldly stepped out and did something different but they're likely going to end up with a shitty, watered-down version of SW precisely because of Lucas' involvement. And I still don't give Disney the credibility that most of you do. I don't think it's warranted if you examine their track record as detailed in heywood's post. IMO, they either need to ditch Lucas' vision for it and forge ahead, or leave it the hell alone. Trying to straddle that fence is a bad idea - which even STITCH agrees with me on.

    Oddly, that interview with Mark Hamill brings me great comfort. Even though they've said they won't, I wonder how much magic would be needed to pull off the Thrawn trilogy - they'd have to make the actors look about 15 years younger to even be believable. Either way, it sounds to me like there's a possibility the original cast could be involved. I don't know what that means for the story, but can it possibly be natural and well-done with that same cast this much later? No film is ever going to live up to that much hype. I wish Disney all the luck in the world, but my expectations are low no matter how they decide to play this.
    Last edited by fett; 1st Nov 2012 at 16:41.

  20. #95
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2000
    Location: tall bikes and tattoos
    Quote Originally Posted by fett View Post
    IMO, they either need to ditch Lucas' vision for it and forge ahead, or leave it the hell alone.
    I think listening to Lucas is probably a good thing, and even letting him brainstorm all the ideas that he wants. He is the center of Star Wars, after all, and as such the sequels will feel more like proper sequels if Lucas helps guide them.

    At the same time, though, I can't think of any other figure in recent entertainment history who has so thoroughly miscalculated his strengths and singlehandedly run a previously-beloved franchise into the ground. You can trace everything that sucked about the prequels and original trilogy tinkering back to choices made by Lucas.

    And so the ideal balance would be a new movie made by talented, lifelong fans who listen to Lucas and even get excited by some of his ideas, but then firmly draw a line in the sand and send George off to play while the grown ups work.

    As for the cast, I'm guessing the story won't center around the old cast except possibly to establish them as mentor-type characters, akin to what Obiwan was in the original film.

    Still, I can't help but cross my fingers and hope for Luke as the Vader-esque main villain

  21. #96
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFlower View Post
    I bet it's gonna be just as awesome as the 2009 Star Trek movie
    I see what you did there.

  22. #97
    Moderator
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Everywhere
    Stitch - did you ever watch the Red Letter Media reviews of the prequels? Good assessments of what went wrong, barring all the stupid attempts at shock comedy in between the commentary. Well worth watching for anyone interested in film or writing. The guy sounds like an idiot but his analysis is brilliant.

  23. #98
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2000
    Location: tall bikes and tattoos
    Yeah, the whole creeper-angle was kind of odd, but he broke down in minute detail why the original prequels don't really make any sense. I'd consider those videos required viewing for anyone interested in writing blockbuster scripts.

  24. #99
    Moderator
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Everywhere
    Until I watched those, I had never really considered that Lucas doesn't really understand his own universe. I had hoped there was some master plan behind it all, then figured I was too dumb to suss out what it was after ep.III. I think you're right though - he's a great idea guy. Writer, not so much. I remember even a few years after ROTJ when he talked a bit about the next three (7-9) feeling wary of him as a director - mainly because of the Ewoks (which I don't mind so much now), the fact that he didn't have the balls to kill off a significant good guy (Lando, Chewie, etc.), and the way Han Solo lost almost all of his initial edge. I was 13 at the time. I remember wondering what another Lucas' Star Wars might be. This was also the time when the merchandising just became ridiculous. I was actually a bit relieved when it all kind of faded out and we went into the "dark ages." I would imagine he has some good ideas - even the prequels show sparks of that. But they're going to have to take his input as raw, undeveloped big picture ideas and let someone with more sense figure out how to make a story from them.

    I wonder sometimes too if filmmaking in general hasn't moved beyond the simplicity of on-the-nose storytelling. Campbell's hero arc has been done to death and it feels trite anymore. Maybe that was part of the charm of the original - we'd never really had that theme played out on a big screen with believable characters and special effects up to that point. I think the 70's culture and that moment in film history had so much to do with its success, and not so much great acting, writing, or dialogue. I worry that a new director (or Lucas himself) would be under the delusion that they can re-create that, instead of doing something fresh and not trying so hard to cop the themes from the originals like they did in the prequels. He probably thought it was a great idea, but it just comes off contrived to me.

  25. #100
    Cuddly little misanthropic hate machine
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: someplace better than this
    Christ I find myself missing the 1990s all of a sudden. Back when Star Wars was just the original trilogy and a few disparate games for the SNES. Back before it became a fucking religion.

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