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Thread: Dying Light aka Deus Ex Zombie aka Mirror's Edge Zombie

  1. #76
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Quote Originally Posted by froghawk View Post
    VtM:B? Interesting! For some reason, despite having played that game multiple times, I can never remember anything about the story.
    Clearly, you haven't played as a Malk yet.

    It's not the overall thrust of the game, as in the main arc, that marks it out as having a great story. It's the details and miniature narratives built around it, and through the sidequests; you also probably don't have to try too hard to remember that it has some wonderfully written characters.


    (Has anyone done the ol' 'what we feel is a good story is a subjective thing' disclaimer yet? No? Well, get on with it, then.)

  2. #77
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I did play as a Malk, and it was awesome. I guess I was thinking of well-written dialogue as being independent from a compelling narrative.

    I'm not saying it had a bad narrative, mind you, just that I can never remember what said narrative actually was!

  3. #78
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulphur View Post
    Spec Ops: The Line probably also gets a look-in for 'good story', though it personally didn't do anything much for me.
    I'd say it's at least an interesting story. It still generates discussions and the presentation was fairly memorable.

  4. #79
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    I guess I haven't played most of those games.

    But I did play Portal. What was the story there ? AI gone crazy and tries to kill humans ? How was that a good story ? The game itself was good. There was a lot of humor. But the story ? Oh, you're maybe talking about the 1986 game. For me that's a sure sign that you have to go back 29 years to find another game with a good story.

    I also played Brothers. I'm not sure I liked that game. The start was good. The control-scheme was new. The big middle part of the game had little story and was just "get to the next level". There were some small things that I liked. But that's again not story. That is fluff. Or fringe. Not sure how to call it. Fluff and fringe makes a game enjoyable. But for me that's not the main story. And the last 10% of Brothers was very original. True. But tbh, I didn't enjoy it. I hated it. I felt bad for 2 days after I finished the game. Sure, the game had an emotional impact. But I don't think I liked that.

    Maybe The Walking Dead is good. Not sure, I haven't played it. But I did play the Game of Thrones game by Telltale games. That game didn't have any gameplay. Just story. But I didn't like it. The choices were pretty meaningless. No matter what choices you made, the key events were the same. Can't say I found the story there any better than other games.

    Oh, I played Deus Ex. Forgettable story, can't remember a thing, except that JC got crossed over a few times. Hardly anything new, good or revolutionary. The game itself was awesome of course. But more because of gameplay than because of story.

    I don't mind the story in most game. What I like more is the fluff. The fringe. Funny or interesting things that have nothing to do with the main storyline. Dying Light has them too. In the side-quests. Challenges. Escort-quests. In the random encounters with other survivors. I won't spoil them for you. But I had to laugh out loud a few times when helping weird survivors in the Slums. Skyrim and Morrowind are 2 of my favorite games. The main storylines there are made of the same predictable stuff as other games. But those games are so good because of all the little extra stuff. M'aiq the liar. A quest where you end up inside a painting. Etc. I rather have a good game with a lot of that fluff, than a good game with only a good story. I rather read a book.

  5. #80
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Do I need to tear that post apart? The absurdities are sufficiently self-evident, right?

  6. #81
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Didn't see these mentioned: Max Payne 1-2, Planescape: Torment, Betrayal at Krondor.

  7. #82
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Ah come on, you have to give Deus Ex credit for managing to incorporate pretty much every major conspiracy theory into a single storyline that somehow didn't fall apart!

  8. #83
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Truth is, I played Deus Ex exactly 15 years ago. And I can't remember the story.

    While I was writing one of my previous posts in this thread, I realized that I can't remember the plot of most stories of games that I have played. Whatever the reason. But I do remember little details of games, that are not story/plot related. Funny NPCs, interesting situations, beautiful vistas, jokes, surpises, easter eggs. Those kinds of things. I seem to enjoy those elements more than most main stories.

  9. #84
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    I dunno if you mentioned Portal because I mentioned Portal, Gry, but the Portal I mentioned was this Portal. And the examples I gave you span much of the length of time that gaming's been around, so to say 'you have to go back 29 years to find a good story' looks like you're trying to fulfill some sort of confirmation bias instead of taking a proper look at the discussion.
    Last edited by Sulphur; 13th Feb 2015 at 22:13.

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    I just replayed Thief Gold. (I was planning to do that since 2006 or so. Started 2 years ago, finally finished it 2 weeks ago). Thief Gold was a great game. I think everybody here agrees. But now that I played it a 2nd time, I took my time to make sure I would fully understand that story. I watch all the cutscenes 3 or more times. (I think the main problem in 1999 was for me that a key scene (where TT&V reveal themselves) is played only once. If you don't pay attention, you miss it). Does Thief have a great story ? Nah, not really. It's not Tolstoj for sure. But the story worked for me. It gave a reason to string all the missions together. You start as a thief, you steal something from someone who is interested in you, you do a job for that person, etc, etc. The story itself is far from a reason to play the game. But it's good enough.
    Keep in mind that "story" is far more than the total of events that take place. Thief is positively regarded for it's "story" because of the developers did an exception job of crafting an interesting setting, the atmosphere is unique, and every single conversation you overhear or readable you find both has some thought put into it and makes sense in the level's context. It also succeeds because (as is also the case with Other LGS games and Deus Ex) the amount of ludonarrative dissonance has been artfully pared down to an almost nonexistent level.

    As they say it's all in the execution, and I have yet to encounter any game with a stronger execution than the Dark Project.

    A counterexample would be Assassin's creed games or Farenheit, both of which tell stories that should be interesting but fall flat on their face due to a poorly thought out delivery.

  11. #86
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Gryz, I have no interest in arguing about any of those games' stories, because you seem very set in your opinions and I don't think you're gonna change your mind. Nor do I suppose I could change your mind about games in general. You seem to think that stories in games are overall so poor that the quality of a game's story should not be a factor when judging it. I disagree. Let's leave it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    Keep in mind that "story" is far more than the total of events that take place.
    Indeed! I wouldn't put things like atmosphere and setting in there though. I think that's separate and comes more from leveldesign and art direction than writing.

    Here's the elements of a game's story as I see them:

    1. Plot - A good, original plot is probably that hardest thing to do when writing a story. Most plots are repetitions of things from the past, and when it comes to stories that suit games well, the selection gets narrowed down even further. Much easier to simply tell an unoriginal story, but tell it really well and fill it with great characters that feel relatable and true. Still, the occasional good, original plot does surface. The Fall and Styx are 2 recent ones I thought did original things with their plots, tho in Styx's case the storytelling was so poor it muddled the whole thing.

    2. Characterization - The Last Of Us, Deadly Premonition, and The Walking Dead are good at this. Even if the stories are fairly straightforward, our investment in the characters keeps us hooked.

    3. Storytelling - even if a game's plot and characters aren't good a game can still provide an interesting story simply by being paced well, or having an interesting way of telling the story. Techland's earlier title Call of Juarez Gunslinger is a good example of this. Fairly standard western revenge story with stereotypical characters, but the way the story is told by the narrator, and the way it changes in the telling, keeps things interesting.

    This is a fun subject to discuss.

  12. #87
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    I was under the assumption that "story" is mostly "plot". And yes, I don't think most plots in videogames are very good. Nor do I think plots in many novels are very good. After all, I believe that 90% of everything is rubbish.

    But when you expand "story" to other things, yes, then I can agree with you. Characters, jokes, environment, background, I agree those can make games fun and interesting. Thief Gold doesn't have a very good story (compared to a good novel). But it does have stuff like the Keepers. And I loved the briefings (drawings, voice-acting, general atmosphere, etc). But that is what I meant by fluff and fringe. I guess I don't know a better word in English.

    I can't say much about the plot of Dying Light. I haven't finished it yet. So far the story is ok, imho.
    The main character, Kyle Crane, doesn't have much personality. The voice-acting is boring. And some of his lines are cringe-worthy. Just like a Jean-Claude Van Damme movie. But I don't care about that. I prefer my avatars in games to be as transparent and bland as possible. Because then I can be that character. I prefer a Gordon Freeman-style avatar, who doesn't speak a word during the whole game.

    I'm not a game-gamer myself. Let me explain. I'm not the type of gamer that like games that require "skill". Precise movement, like in shooters. Or super-fast clicking, like in RTS games. The games I like above all others, are games with an open world, where you can roam around, have adventures, explore. Do stuff at your own pace. Dying Light is like that. Other examples are Skyrim and Morrowind. Even Thief is a bit like this (because the maps were huge, and not linear, and not pushing you forward). I played a lot of WoW. A lot. The main story in WoW is usually pretty crap. Even though it's based on novels you can buy. I enjoyed WoW for the exploration. For the weird places or fun quests you can encounter. (All that has been slowly removed from the game. One of the (many) reasons why I stopped playing).

    So is that "story" ? It's definitely not the plot. If other things besides the plot help build the overall story, then yes, I can agree with you. Maybe I should have written: "I don't care much about the plot".

    One small example from Dying Light.
    spoiler:
    In the Slums I encountered a boy who thought he was a werewolf. He asked me to help him. Of course I agreed. He need to make a special elixir to cure himself. We gathered garlic, wolfs bane and cinnamon. The boy ate the mixture. It tasted terrible. And then he declared himself cured ! The whole quest lasted maybe 5 minutes. Nothing spectacular. I expected something to happen, but the thing was over just like that.


    Very dry. I though the whole thing was pretty funny. Little stuff like this make a game for me. Other players would call it "just another boring fetch quest". I have no idea what those kind of players expect from a game.

  13. #88
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    So is that "story" ?
    Yes. Indubitably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    It's definitely not the plot.
    "The" plot is kind of meaningless. In most cases it's still plot - unrelated subplot, but plot nonetheless. One of the criticisms frequently leveled at video games (as opposed to other entertainment media stories) is that "the" plot is frequently highly fragmented, the bulk of it consisting of subplots that aren't even thematically related to the main quest.

    I don't really think that particular criticism is fair, BTW. TV shows do much the same thing. A large, open game might be better understood as episodic content, and is almost certainly experienced that way. Would you complain that a TV show "merely" has good episodes, but the overall arc of the series isn't very strong? I mean, it's a valid criticism, but I'm not sure it's necessarily an important one.

  14. #89
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Throughout the game, you sometimes encounter QR-codes.
    One gamer decoded a QR-code, and it pointed him to a website.
    A whole website full with back-story !

    http://www.harran-city.com/blog
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 15th Feb 2015 at 21:17.

  15. #90
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Story is a tricky one in games because the player has agency, so the more freedom you give the player, the harder it is to make the story fit the PC, because that part is dynamically determined. You can either railroad the possible range of things which the player can do in order to stick to a good, pre-determined story (Walking Dead) or you can make the story hang very loosely, letting the player have great freedom, but losing that feeling of there being a tight, over-arching narrative to the gaming experience (any GTA or clone).

  16. #91
    bikerdude
    Guest
    I've just started playing this after a fellow TTlg'r unexpectedly gifted me a copy for helping him out with a tech build.

    Can anyone recommend a good tweak guide for this game, as I am seeing what I think is a texture streaming stutter which I can remove but turning vsync off.

    My system specs:

    • Core i7 3770 @stock
    • GTX 970 @ Stock & 344.75 driver
    • 16GB DDR3-1600
    • Samsung SSD (256gb 840 EVO)
    • Soundblaster Z series - fairly upto date driver
    • Win7 x64 Sp1


    And is it me or some of the sounds straight out of Stalker..? this game so far is like Stalker meets Mirrors Edge meets The last of us.
    Last edited by bikerdude; 16th Feb 2015 at 18:03.

  17. #92
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    I have a i5-3570k and a gtx680. And the game runs fine on my machine. It should do even better on yours. What do you want to tweak ? (Note, yes, sometimes there are dips in the framerate. But that's the case in almost all games. I'm not complaining about that. Example: when a "spitter" spits green poison at me, my fps drops from 50-60 to 1-10 for a second or 2. Not good. But I don't care).

    Oh, and I have the "view distance" turned down from 100% to 30% or so. A high view distance has a high impact on framerates. It's the first thing people should turn down if they want to tweak something. I've seen a few times that a texture was low res, and then a few seconds later it would pop to high res. But only a few times. I do run the game from a SSD. Another thing I noticed is that this game really uses a lot of RAM. (Although that should be fixed in the current version 1.4). If I kept my Firefox (Palemoon to be precise) win7 would give me pop-up warnings that my RAM was about to be depleted. I would usually alt-tab and kill my Palemoon (if I forgot). But if I kept playing, the game would start to become erratic. (As any software will do when it runs out of memory). (FYI, I got 8GB RAM, but I disabled my pagefile). The game would not crash. But some textures would not pop to higher-res. And some sound would not play.

    In any case, you should check out the Dying Light Manager.
    I could download it from http://www.nexusmods.com/dyinglight/?
    But for some reason the file is "under moderation review", whatever that means.
    Not sure

    The DLManager allows you to turn off or certain features that you can't turn off in-game. Like Film Grain or Chromatic Abberation. By turning those 2 off, I gained 10-15% fps. (Which was a pleasant surprise, because I did it only for the clearer picture).
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 16th Feb 2015 at 21:07.

  18. #93
    bikerdude
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    • The DLManager allows you to turn off or certain features that you can't turn off in-game.
    • Like Film Grain or Chromatic Abberation. By turning those 2 off, I gained 10-15% fps. (Which was a pleasant surprise, because I did it only for the clearer picture).
    • Yeah I read about this, I think the reason is offline is becase so many people complained it broke things
    • The latest version of the game now allows you to disable filmgrain.

  19. #94
    bikerdude
    Guest
    So I'm 20hrs in, at level 13, 15% main story -

    • created all the safe houses/places,
    • got a crafted/upgraded machette that can kill biters and virals with a single swipe, most of the time I get the bullet time cinematic kill.
    • a shotgun and police rifle ,
    • and figured out I can kill those damn Volatiles/Nightcrawlers from a distance with 4 exploding throwing stars to the head.

    Loving this game.
    Fidcal, on 19 Feb 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:
    1. Anyway, I'm finding the melee fighting difficult when forced to fight a lot of undead (such as when they are all in the compound around the objective!)
    2. I'm looking to build up throwing weapons to see if I can do better. Wish I'd known at the start.
    3. I recommend anyone starting the game, to take their time and gather up as much 'stuff' as possible from chests and so on then sell it in the shops in safe zones so you can then buy a decent stock of weapons.
    4. I think the chests respawn - hope so, because I need to shelve the objective while I go scavenging.
    5. I've found the gamesave file now. I should have done that from the start so I can keep backing it up and restore an earlier one if needed, because everything is lost.
    6. If you drop flares and throw stars but run out, you can't just reload and repeat - all your stuff is lost when resuming. So, say you accumulate 30 throwing stars and 20 flares (do they even work in the day?) but use them up, there's no reload,
    7. and dying puts you back at the start minus all your hard-earned stuff! That sucks.
    1. The machete is the first melee weapon that is a positive joy to use, but just like in TDM you have to aim for the head to get a nice clean head slicing. With careful planning Im am pretty much killing everything in my path.
    2. Yes totally, its a exploit/bug in the game but you can carry as many exploding throwing stars, molotaves as you like - I currently have 74 stars and 62 molatove's atm, but all ways scavenge everything and everywhere repeatedly.
    3. Yes 110%, at the start you work close to the tower building up inventory, cash, weapons. Then start doing side quests, but carefully. When I got high enough and had enough exploding stars and a shotgun I cleared out all the biohazard zones in 2 game days.
    4. yes they do, so you can scavenge the same places over and over again. Some people might thing that's poor coding, but the way to look at it is there are other runners and survivors through out the city. Some of the places your scavenging from might well be their drops etc.
    5. The beauty in this game is once you get high enough dying isnt so bad, but conversely not being able to save has made me far more careful when doing a quest or entering a building.
    6. Flares are pointless outside in the daylight, but work in any dark places regardless of the time of day. Zaid's flares (you have to do a side quest to learn how to make them) last longer than normal UV flares.
    7. Not necessarily, depending on what your level is and what you were doing at the time, traversing the city, doing a side or main quest you only loose some survivor points and get teleported to the nearest safe house.


    So has anyone done the task to get to the top of one of the towers on the suspension bridge? Like most normal people I have a healthy fear of heights, but Jesus this is the first game that's made extremely anxious as I was climbing up the side of support towers. Just looking down made me slightly queasy and my sphincter tighten.

    Also its nice to see the amount of zombies reduce over all, as it would be if the remaining survivors were cleaning up etc.
    Last edited by bikerdude; 19th Feb 2015 at 16:52.

  20. #95
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    I'm 24/23/24. Almost at the end of the main questline. I think I must have done most side-quests in Old Town now. So I'm almost done with the game.

    Was having great fun. Until yesterday. Side quests were done, I got great weapons, feel very comfortable with parkour and climbing. Although I do feel a little vertigo when I climb on really high things. The fighting gets very easy now. Too easy maybe. I have 500k gold. 100+ of each ingredient, 100+ healthpacks, etc. I might take 1-2 days off, and then the game might feel fresh again. I plan on playing a 2nd play-through. Supposedly the 2nd time you keep your inventory at the start of a new game. And the enemies are a bit tougher.

    The quest to climb on top of the bridge is awesome. Wasn't there a similar bridge in Half-Life 2 ? Or was it another game. In any case, this bridge is better than any others in other games. The quest indicates you need to do it during the night. But I went during the daytime, to scout the place. And for the view. It turns out you can do the quest during the daytime too. (Just bring a few extra healthpacks). The good thing about the bridge ? It won't be the last time you are there.

    I also noticed less zombies after I had ran around for a while. Both in The Slums as in Old Town. At first I liked that. But now I miss it a little. It's great fun to chop off the heads of a hundred zombies that have gathered on a big square.

    I never used my shotgun. I use my rifle only on Rais's men, if they also have firearms. I never used my grappling hook. (It feels a bit cheap, almost cheating). I vendor all my throwing weapons. I only use molotovs once in a while. I always plan on using UV-light more often during the night. But in reality, when the Volatiles spot me at night, I just run and run. And never look back. Once your agility skills are upgraded a bit, that works good enough to escape 9 out of 10 times.

    I did cheat a little. I edited a file so that my weapons decay 3 times slower than normal. With hindsight, that was not really necessary. I replaced most of my weapons way before they broke. I have 500k gold atm, which is enough to buy 20 of the best weapons in shops. I got enough materials for a 1000 modifications. It was just the upgrade-thingies that I was worried about. Next play-through I'm gonna restore weapon-decay back to normal.

    I still think this is a great game. Best game since 2011, imho. So many little things done right. Great graphics. Detailed game-world. I love the parkour.

    I think it's even better than Mirror's Edge. Mirror's Edge's parkour requires you to push the right button at the exact right time. And you keep retrying it until you get it right. That always felt very gamey to me. In Dying Light, the parkour is easier. At least for me. It's more about "what do you intend to do", in stead of "this is a perfect execution of what you planned". It feels a lot faster too.

  21. #96
    bikerdude
    Guest
    Fidcal, on 19 Feb 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:How do I kill zombies and how do I kill those big orange buggers
    Bikerdude, on 19 Feb 2015 - 11:33 PM, said: Just press and hold your use key and a cursor appears above the zombie's head - then release and do the same thing once more = dead killer zombie :-) if you cant figure it out I will make a small vid showing how
    Right here yer go Fids, "How to kill a Zombie in one slice"

    http://youtu.be/4ahAaSVJYj0

  22. #97
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    Okay. I FINALLY completed Dying Light; a serious accomplishment for me considering my intense aversion to zombies (my fellow Taffers will understand). It took a second time around to end this torture; torture which I have to admit I rather enjoyed. The first time I reached the Extraction quest, I realized that I hadn't leveled-up nearly enough and didn't have nearly enough kick-ass, high-damage weapons, so I started all over again and this time I maxed-out my three skill levels by the time I reached the end quests (and dared the game to kick my ass, which, of course, it did anyway). DL has to be the most difficult game I've ever played; I've never before reached the point where I wanted to pitch the monitor through a window while playing a game, ever (and no, dethy, I haven't summoned the courage to start Dark Souls yet), as I did during my first playthru and the gamut-running in the beginning of the Extraction quest. Yet after I FINALLY reached the top of that dang tower to confront the main bad guy, Rais, I admit that I was rather relieved that the torture was over with. Getting there was a whole different story, wherein I was transported back to my first playthru attempt during which I died once every few, short minutes. It was grueling. It was wonderful. I especially LOVED being able to use the Thieves Highway mode of travel (but forget about my going outside at night willingly - those Volatiles were LETHAL and wicked-fast!) and any degree of stealth-mode options in a game are always welcome. The grappling hook made it all the more fun once I reached level 12 and the Drop-Attack option was so very satisfying.

    A few things I really DIDN'T like:

    -not being able to save when I want to save my game

    -having all my painstakingly procured, upgraded weapons taken away from me during boss battles and being able to use only a damage=10 rusty blade - and if that wasn't bad enough .....

    -having my character made to be deliberately exhausted to the point where I couldn't use my grappling hook, nor could I run more than 10 feet before my character was immobilized and too weary to move

    -having my character stricken with those seizure-like moments wherein the graphics go all wonky and everything turns a pukey yellow/greenish/gold (DX-style, only more pukey); those seizures also incapacitated my character at the most exquisitely inconvenient of times, too, and I didn't see the point of forcing my character to stand there groaning and looking at his hands clenching into claws while a Viral or Volatile was in the process of getting ready to attack me

    -the dream-like sequences where I was chasing Jayde while in the throes of one of those seizures; I really don't care for dream-like sequences at all (Far Cry included those accursed types of sequences, too, which seriously pissed me off)

    -no binoculars available for my character.

    Otherwise, in spite of the frustration, I enjoyed this game probably more than I should have. To the point where I'm looking for a similar game (no, not Dead Island). I don't know how Techland and Warner Bros. I.E. could create/publish a DL sequel, but I sure hope they do. I wish I could say that playing DL was a great stress-reliever, but in truth, it was quite the opposite. And I loved it!

  23. #98
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Started playing Dying Light on the PS4 and am loving it (more on that later), but I saw there's a sizable expansion planned (no release date yet though). It's called Dying Light: The Following, and cults outside the city are involved. You head out to more rural surroudnigns, and it's caves, countryside, and dune buggies. Sounds fun.


  24. #99
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    This game is great:

    - Probably the best use of a day/night cycle in a game to date.
    - Running and jumping across the rooftops is awesome.
    - The open-world gameworld is amazing.
    - Decent crafting system.

    but most importantly...

    -Combat! - I'm a big fan of melee combat, and that part is fun. There's a ton of weapons and modifications to choose from, if you decide to go that route.

    However...

    What's even more fun are all the agility moves. After you've put a little time in, and built up your skill tree, you don't even need to use weapons anymore. I rarely do. It's a lot of flying dropkicks, sliding leg breaks, and head stomps. You can also tackle zeds, chuck them aside or whip them violently against a wall (or just vault over them). It's all brutal and hilarious and pure fun. I often end up laughing hysterically at what I've done. I use a lot of the traps too and you can really pile up the bodies if you do it right. And in a pinch there's also molotovs and throwing stars.

    Yeah, the story is lame and derivative. But you can (for the most part) ignore it and do your own thing. If you can grab this for $20-30 on a sale, don't hesitate.


  25. #100
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    If you can grab this for $20-30 on a sale, don't hesitate.
    Here's a chance.

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