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Thread: Help a noob.

  1. #101
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    It may be because you are using a particular control method. With thumb on the right stick of a gamepad, looking around is really natural. Apart from specific instances of bits of scenery getting in the way, or being backed into a corner, I've never had an issue with the camera.

  2. #102
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    "I don't understand why a lot of people like something, therefore they must be mistaken."

  3. #103
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    "I don't understand why a lot of people like something, therefore they must be mistaken."
    That's a useless argument.
    If everybody thinks that way, nothing ever changes.

    Yep, I'm a stubborn bastard. Yep, sometimes I am wrong. But sometimes I am right.

    I think Dark Souls is a success despite its flaws. Not because of its flaws.

    Again, I never heard anyone complain about the controls in WoW. And I've read a lot of posts on forums. And people complain a lot about WoW. But not the movement or controls. GTAV is another game that came originally from the console-world. Movement with PC-controls is a pain in GTAV. I made it bareable, but it took a lot of configuration. For GTAV Rockstar at least tried to make it better for both PCs and consoles. But they haven't fully succeeded yet. (Example: driving and steering with digital steer and accelerator is a pain).

    In a perfect world, DS would have 2 different behaviours. One for PCs, with mouse and keyboard. And another one for consoles. The PC one wouldn't require lock-on. The console one probably would.

  4. #104
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    I've yet to hear a convincing description of what its flaws are which don't fundamentally misunderstand a key mechanic.

    The "unresponsive controls" one is very consistent.

  5. #105
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    I wonder how many complaints about the controls come from people either unused to playing with controllers or who use KB+M. I have to admit that I have zero patience for people who think that KB+M=PC, controllers=consoles, and never the twain shall meet.

  6. #106
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    The most consistent complaint I've seen are a response to the fact that you don't get an instant hit when you attack, but a delay. It seems that this isn't a common mechanism and a lot of people bounce off it thinking it's shitty design rather than intentional.

  7. #107
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    I've yet to hear a convincing description of what its flaws are which don't fundamentally misunderstand a key mechanic.
    The "unresponsive controls" one is very consistent.
    It's not unresponsiveness. Once you know how the control-system works, it's predictable. It's not that I don't know what the game does, it's just that I don't like it. I'll give you an example.

    In a game like WoW, or even Unreal Tournament, I can face a opponent. And then I decide to back off. Just press "S", while keeping facing the enemy. You'll walk backwards. That doesn't work in DS. You'll turn your back and walk away from your enemy with your back turned to him. In DS that means you get backstabbed or hit in the back immediately.

    So I learned to use the lock-on feature. Now if you lock-on to your enemy, and press "S", you will walk backwards. Like in WoW or UT.

    So now I use lock-on. Next problem. I want to dodge/dive forward, just past a mob. So I land at his back. And so I can backstab him. With lock-on, I will always dive straight *into* the mob. Because I'm always facing him dead-on. What I need to do is: release target-lock, move my mouse so I'm pointing in the right direction (slightly left or right of the mob), then dodge/dive behind the mob. Next problem, facing the mob. If I just move my mouse now, the camera will be behind the mob, behind me, but I will be facing in the direction I dodged/dived. That means, I'll have my back towards the mob. If the mob turns, he will hit me in the back. Using my mouse, I can not make my character turn. I can do two things: 1) I move "S" and then immediatly "W". This will make me face the mob. Or 2) I need to press "lock-on" again.

    I'm sure you guys are all used to it. But I find it awkward. In WoW or UT, I can immediately move/dodge/dive in front next to the mob, land behind him, and then use my mouse to turn 180 degrees. Much more natural, more intuitive and quicker. And easier too, imho.

    Another problem. I use DSMFix. I think this is a function of DSMFix, not of DS itself. But every time there is text on my screen, my mouse does not move my camera anymore. Until the text has disappeared from my screen. Maybe for English speakers this is less of an issue. But I have sub-titles enabled. Because I don't want to miss any of the spoken text. Result: any time an NPC speaks, I can move only WSAD, without the ability to turn my camera. This can get you killed easily. Example last weekend: I fought a certain NPC with a maggot on its head. The first 20 seconds of that encounter, the NPC attacks me, he speaks, my mouse stops working, I can't turn or target. Result: I run around for 20 seconds trying to get away from the NPC who attacks me. After 20 seconds, I can finally use my mouse again. And only then I can start fighting back.

    A similar thing happens when an enemy drops loot. A "OK"-button pops up. Until I press that button (or hit ) my mouse is unusable. Result: any fight with 2 or more mobs, the 2nd mob can kill you easily if the 1st mob drops loot. Or you fight an enemy, move and dodge like a madman. Mob dies, drops loot, mouse stops working. You fall off a ledge. Very inconvenient.

    Another example. Jumping. You need to press your dodge button, you need to keep it pressed until you gain speed. And then you release and double-click to jump. Painful. Other games just have a jump-button. DS1's scheme to do jumps is probably just made this way because they didn't have a spare free button on the controller for jumping. It's awkward. I can jump reliably in any game. But not in DS1. This is maybe also because of the bug regarding "run at 60 fps, and your physics will change". Do you remember that gap before the vendor at the top of Sen's Fortress ? I can not make that jump. Unless I unequip all my gear and jump naked. Now at Sen's Fortress that's not a problem, because it's calm on the roof there. But I'm about to do Bed of Chaos. I will not be able to jump across the chasms in the floor. Console-players seem to be able to. But I can't. That's inconvenient.

    I understand why people love the DS games. I tend to agree, I'm really having a good time playing DS1. But fact is: the controls (and the UI) suck on PC. Even with DSFix and DSMFix, it still is painful sometimes.

    The GTA games used to have really really bad controls, bad UI and bad graphical options on PC. Clearly Rockstar was console focused. But with GTAV, it was immediately obvious that Rockstar made a serious attempt to improve their game on PC. I wish From Software did the same. All it takes is hiring one engineer who has a little experience with the UI on PC, and who will champion the game for the PC-platform inside his own company. Again, I can play DS fine with joystick and trackball. I killed O&S in my first (serious) attempt. But there are still weird quirks. Very weird. It's an opportunity for From to improve. The fact that they sold a few million copies of DS games for PC doesn't mean their implementation is awesome. Maybe if they had good controls and a good UI for PC, they would have sold a few million more.
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 19th Apr 2016 at 12:29.

  8. #108
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Poland
    I've used keyboard and mouse for all three Dark Souls games, and loved it (of course 1 needed that mouse fix). Had to really struggle to learn to use the controller for Demon's when I played it.

  9. #109
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirith View Post
    I wonder how many complaints about the controls come from people either unused to playing with controllers or who use KB+M. I have to admit that I have zero patience for people who think that KB+M=PC, controllers=consoles, and never the twain shall meet.
    I have my own setup. Joystick and trackball. I've played zillions of games with that setup. FPSs, RPGs, adventure games, MMOs, anything. My joystick is highly programmable. It comes with its own programming language. I can adjust my setup to almost all games. Deadzones, double-clicking, key-combos, analogue axis inputs, I can do anything. If I can't adjust my setup to a game, you betya it's the game's fault.

    I refuse to use a gamepad.
    Because.

    Software should adjust itself to my needs and quirks.
    I should be in control over my PC. And the software that runs on it.
    Not Apple, not Google, not From Software.
    If I enjoy playing with joystick and trackball, that should be acceptable. Especially if I can make it behave in any way I want.

    You enjoy your gamepad. Fine. I don't. Who are you to tell me what input device I should enjoy ?

  10. #110
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Poland
    Software should adjust itself to my needs and quirks.
    You do realize just how entitled you sound, right? Your setup is something that, quite likely, nobody else in the world uses.

  11. #111
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    I am absolutely okay with someone disliking gamepads. At the same time, I think the notion that any game should play equally well with any setup is unrealistic at best and deeply silly at worst. How a game controls is part of its design, it't inextricably linked to the game's mechanics. Some types of game lend themselves reasonably well to different controls, others less so - but there are always allowances that need to be made. Disregarding this strikes me as naive with respect to game design, and putting this in terms of "I should be in control over my PC"... Do you drive a car? Do you also expect to steer it with joystick and trackball?

  12. #112
    New Member
    Registered: Apr 2016

    RE: Help a noob.

    Bro, try using a magic user.

    They're pretty much the easy mode for this game.

  13. #113
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Just because a game doesn't cater to your setup doesn't mean it's a bad game. The game is designed for a controller and works perfectly fine with it. PCs don't even enter into it. This doesn't mean that millions of players who are playing it with a controller are overlooking the game's flaws, it means that millions of players don't have these issues with the game.

    It's a bit like trying to brush your teeth through your a**hole and then complaining that the toothbrush sucks, because it's so difficult to use.
    Last edited by Starker; 19th Apr 2016 at 13:16.

  14. #114
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirith View Post
    Do you drive a car? Do you also expect to steer it with joystick and trackball?
    I am sure there are disabled people who can't use a steering-wheel and use something else.
    As long as you can make it work, even if it requires a little adaptation, that's fine with me.

    But more to the point:
    My car beeps at me when I don't buckle up. I dislike that. I will buckle up normally. But sometimes it takes a minute. In any case, it's my safety, it's my life. If I don't want to wear a seat-buckle for a minute, that's my decision. It's my car, after all. I am in control. So I would like to turn off that beep. It seems I can't. Hate that. It's my car. If I don't want it to beep, it shouldn't beep. (Note: our law requires me to wear a seat-belt on public roads. The law doesn't require my car to beep at me).


    Note, I am a software developer. I write code for a living. I strongly believe that software should do as much automatically as possible. Without user configuration. Without user input. But if a user doesn't like something, he should have the controls to change *his* product to his liking. You guys seem to have the opposite attitude. "If Windows requires me to clap my hand 7 times before it will print a document, I will not complain, and just clap my hands 7 times ....."

  15. #115
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    Just because a game doesn't cater to your setup doesn't mean it's a bad game.
    I never said DS is a bad game.

    The game is designed for a controller and works perfectly fine with it.
    That's a bad design decision. Imho.
    Software should be designed in a way that it is as flexible to the user's needs as possible. Assuming everyone must play/use/buy/like thingy X version Y from vendor Z is an artificial limitation. I don't see the point.

    it means that millions of players don't have these issues with the game.
    True. And that does not prove my point wrong.
    "Millions of people like Transformer movies. You have no right to call them crappy movies". And still I'll call all Transformer movies crappy movies.

  16. #116
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    I never said DS is a bad game.
    Fine, a flawed game or a game with bad controls or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    "Millions of people like Transformer movies. You have no right to call them crappy movies". And still I'll call all Transformer movies crappy movies.
    But what you're doing here is not calling a Transformer movie bad because you think it sucks. It's calling Shawshank Redemption bad because it has cut off corners on your special TV screen, even if it was never meant to run there.

    Just because a game is not designed for every input device doesn't make it a badly designed game. Is Starcraft a bad game because it sucks with a controller? Are flight sims badly designed because they are best played with a joystick?

    And, you know, it's perfectly fine to dislike Shawshank Redemption. But it's one thing to say that you don't like its cinematography because of the cut off corners and it's quite another to suggest that everyone else who is watching it with the full picture is overlooking the bad cinematography in it.
    Last edited by Starker; 19th Apr 2016 at 14:14.

  17. #117
    I switched to the X360 controller long time ago, and I'm using it in any game I can, while playing mostly on PC. Not only because most PC games are console ports right now, but because all developers recognize X/PS controllers as an important area to design player experience. And I want to be the part of that

    Still, you can use whatever the setup works for you, but you can't reasonably expect that any software will adjust to it. Actually, if you read any game EULA, you'll find stuff like: "the game is offered as is, etc." and it can basically blow up your computer, and nobody will be held responsible for that Also, the publisher is in full control of how you use the game, whether you can make levels for it, or modify it in any way (typically you can't). It's been like that for years.

    It's not even that you're the last person on Earth to have a right to complain about controls with that weird setup. DS was never an easy-to-learn, hard-to-master game, and you have to stop comparing it with such titles, as it makes no sense. DS screamed "ridiculous challenge" right from the beginning, even though later on you start to see that it's more about the scary looks than the actual super-high difficulty. Everything from the control scheme to weird, uneven timing of enemy characters' attack animations is supposed to keep you on your feet, all the time. That bloody jump button makes your hands sweaty every time you have to make a decision about jumping. Honestly, you don't need it most of the time, but every time you risk using it, it's a memorable experience. That's its purpose. Not jumping across chasms in the Bed of Chaos.
    Last edited by Judith; 19th Apr 2016 at 14:05.

  18. #118
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    This thread seems to have come full circle from where it started. I'd rather it got back to Gryz mostly documenting his playthrough at this point, which was interesting. It's pretty clear we can't influence his opinion on the matter of the controls.

    Regarding Avalon's post: It's also pretty clear some people just won't like Dark Souls games. It's bizarre how passionate those people can be -- I mean his post really baffles me. But hey, different strokes for different folks, right?

  19. #119
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Gryz - you're criticising the game rather than just saying that you are not suited to it.
    I had never liked gamepads before I bought one for DkS. The controls don't suck - they are perfect.
    I'm sure if I used a joystick and a trackball I'd hate it like poison.
    It's a game which is so carefully designed around a controller, that using something else is going to have an impact.
    People like vH are in the minority (still, good for you vH).

    I'll give you an example of why it's so good. I have a habit of playing a lot of games at once in a stupid ADHD fashion and as such will sometimes get so caught up in installing new stuff, that I'll sometimes come back to a game I'm half-way through after months to finish it. Ordinarily, this leads to a warming up period where I have to get familiar with the controls again. Doesn't matter how slick the game is - happens with AssCreed, happens with Witcher 3.

    With Dark Souls, the controller is in my hand and seconds later (even after not playing for over a year) I'm exactly where I left off. The character in-game just is the gamepad. I barely even notice I'm holding one. In fact, DkS turned me on to gamepad gaming in general. For games which I can tolerate it (I'm still stuck in my old ways mostly and use kb+m predominantly), I love playing with a gamepad, because rather than being hunched over a desk with a massive noisy interface right below my chin, I'm sitting back in my chair, hands in my lap just watching the screen with all of the controls being right where I need them.

  20. #120
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2004
    For the record, DS1's mouse controls - even with the fix - were terrible. The mouse fix was emulating a gamepad - and thus lost the strengths of a mouse.
    DS2's mouse support was much better by scholars of the first sin, and DS3's works right out of the box.

  21. #121
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    For games which I can tolerate it (I'm still stuck in my old ways mostly and use kb+m predominantly), I love playing with a gamepad, because rather than being hunched over a desk with a massive noisy interface right below my chin, I'm sitting back in my chair, hands in my lap just watching the screen with all of the controls being right where I need them.
    I've almost grown entirely away from the kb/m. At one time, I'd bitch nonstop about having to use a pad for anything but 3rd person overhead games. But I sucked up my pride, got some practice in, and ended up preferring it for that kick back and relax factor. I never did get quite as precise with one as I was with a mouse, but I found it to be a willing sacrifice for the comfort.

    And then I got the Steam Controller, and life came full circle.

  22. #122
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Poland
    Personally, I feel like kb+m gives me more precise control over the movement and camera, but I know I'm in the minority, at least with regards to Souls games.

  23. #123
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    It's arguable in concerns to the Souls games, but otherwise it's an absolute fact. As good as I've gotten with the Steam Controller, I'm still not quite as quick and precise as I am with a mouse. You just don't get much better than it.

  24. #124
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I switch depending on the game. The choice in peripherals has always been a strength of PC gaming, really. When I play an action game where there's little reading and no need for complex inputs, I can just relax on the couch in front of the TV with a controller. When I play an RPG with lots of info on the screen and where a full array of shortcut keys comes in handy, I get back to my desk and play with a keyboard and mouse. Platformer -- controller + TV. FPS -- KB&mouse + TV. Strategy game -- KB&mouse + monitor. Dark Souls -- controller + monitor.

  25. #125
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    It started when Avalon said the controls and the camera were bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Avalon View Post
    The controls are godawful, and the camera seems to be attached to a kite trailing behind you rather than to your character; or perhaps judging by some of its wobbling, .....
    When someone said: "no they're not", I responded.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    The fact that there is a "lock-on-enemy" option in the game is proof that the controls/camera are not good. If movement and camera were good, that option would not have been necessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    But what you're doing here is not calling a Transformer movie bad because you think it sucks. It's calling Shawshank Redemption bad because it has cut off corners on your special TV screen, even if it was never meant to run there.
    A more appropriate comparison would be: a new game only runs in 4:3 format, and not in 16:9. Would that piss you off ? There's even a more extreme case. Some people (me included) now have 21:9 monitors. Some modern games do not run in 21:9 mode.

    You all make it sound like the input-scheme is a huge part of a game. It is not. It's a detail. For me, a game, or at least the games I play, are about me being a fantasy character in a fantasy world, who has adventures. With a story, and some lore. Etc, etc. It's not about pressing the right button at the right time. Those are games from the seventies and erarly eighties (Donkey Kong comes to mind. Pong even). The inputs are just a way to translate my thoughts ("run forward", "jump to the right", "hit him!") into action of my fantasy character. Whether that happens by mind-reading, a gamepad, a joystick or even a racing-steering-wheel is not important at all. A decent game, a decent customer-product should try to allow as much freedom as possible. Some games do that indeed. That's why we have inverse-mouse options, game-pad versus kb+mouse, mouse smoothing, mouse sensitivity, remappable keys on a keyboard, etc. Some games would force you to play with movement on the arrow-keys, without the ability to remap to WASD.

    From Software just didn't put a lot of thought into giving customers that flexibility. They might have thought "gamepad is better". But a software-developer should never think he always knows beter than his customers. Like almost all other game-companies, they should have invested a bit more in a pc-port. It's not hard. It doesn't require a lot of time. We have customers making those adjustments, even *without* access to the source code ! If they can fix the game (or improve it), then From could have done it for sure.
    Same thing with the internal rendering at 100x60 pixels ....

    Just because a game is not designed for every input device doesn't make it a badly designed game. Is Starcraft a bad game because it sucks with a controller? Are flight sims badly designed because they are best played with a joystick?
    Note, I am not complaining that something is best (according to others) with a certain type of input. What I don't like is how From blatently ignored everything else but a game-pad. I know how to program my joystick+trackball for almost every game I've played in the last 17 years. Including double-tapping for dodging in UT. The only game I played with keyboard only was "Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons". But that game truly did something with the controller that required a controller. Still, it was playable with a keyboard (I finished it).
    Do you remember how From delivered DS1 to its public ? Remember the mouse ? Even after we got DSFix and DSMFix, From never bothered to fix their game. Or include DSFix and DSMFix. They just don't care about their customers in this respect. If someone is arrogant, it's From, not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    It's not even that you're the last person on Earth to have a right to complain about controls with that weird setup.
    Again, I'm able to make my controls work in almost any game. Even in DS1. Still, From did a bad job. And even then, there's things that work bad (imho) with both a game-pad or other input-devices. Like the way you jump. Or how you have to twiddle with the lock-on button to dodge diagonally in front/next/behind a boss. Or how you can't walk backwards without using lock-on.

    That bloody jump button makes your hands sweaty every time you have to make a decision about jumping. Honestly, you don't need it most of the time, but every time you risk using it, it's a memorable experience. That's its purpose. Not jumping across chasms in the Bed of Chaos.
    Memorable experience ? I know exactly what I want my character to do. I can time jumps pretty accurately in other games. Never had a problem in other games. I did all those jumping puzzles in Guild Wars 2 with my joystick+trackball. But in DS1, suddenly I feel like I have no control over my character. That's not excitement. That's frustration.

    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    Gryz - you're criticising the game rather than just saying that you are not suited to it.
    I find it weird that your prefered input-device have an impact on which game you're suited for/allowed to play. As I wrote before, input-devices are a necessary evil. They are not a key component of a game. They are a tool. They are not the goal.

    Anyway, enough about game-pads. I don't care.

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