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View Poll Results: Which one is the better Thief game?

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  • Thief: Deadly Shadows

    71 85.54%
  • NuThief

    12 14.46%
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Thread: TDS vs NuThief...Fight!

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2005
    Location: Heart of Darkness
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDuriel View Post
    there are some valid points, but most is just complaining about non issues and some are even flat out wrong
    I appreciate constructive criticism. Which parts are wrong? I can amend the review to change those parts. And there is no "nitpicking" -because even the small things I mention are things that are worse than their equivalents in the previous games. As far as I'm concerned, there is absolutely no excuse for any part of a game with a AAA budget and 6 year development cycle to have aspects about it that are not as good as a previous installment from 1998.

  2. #27
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2012
    Location: Germany
    here my overly snarky and aggressively worded arguments regarding the review. dont take it to heart. i dont really give a damn, but lets be honest, most of this is not something that should make someone reconsider playing the game.

    AI:
    NPC's can't detect anything even slightly above them, visually or aurally.
    1st level alerts of enemies often end with the enemy dismissing the alert as "just their imagination" -but they will remain in an alerted state where they are convinced that a thieving intruder is in the area.
    just like thief one, two, oh and three where they bug out and chase you form the other side of the map. its slightly irritating.
    NPC's can completely forget a chased intruder just 10 seconds since the last confirmed sighting.
    just like thief one, two, and three then. yeah its irritating.
    NPC's don't even comment on -let alone get alerted by missing valuables.
    and? theyre paid to stand guard, not to hold inventory of the place. once again this works the same in t1 and t2
    Player can dodge all enemy melee attacks while standing still, but when enemies throw things at you, they hit with 90% accuracy regardless of how far you are and how fast you're moving.
    if i remember correctly one of the principles of the series was: dont get into fights because youre not supposed to survive them

    Animations:
    Literally every type of interaction with the environment and objects is a pre-animated sequence that takes away the player's control.
    i dont understand why playing a few seconds of animation is an issue. please elaborate. if anything one could argue that this increases immersion, things randomly disappearing doesent quite fit that bill.
    This amount of animation-centric design causes many compromises, like the inability to open a box from the wrong side. The animation only exists for the front side.
    true, how many times did this come up though? this was designed around, so the vast majority of objects cant be interacted from from the wrong side anyway. and this is such a minor complaint, something that has existed since 3d gaming first emerged and everyone has accepted.
    Controls to exit to menu or load a save are locked during death animation.
    quickload still works afaik. and does having to wait 5 seconds when you die really make a game not worth playing?

    Audio:
    Footstep sounds are totally absent at random locations.
    thank god, garret learnt to be stealthy. there *is* however a general issue with certain sound cards when it comes to 5.1 and 7.1 sound that could produce this effect.
    All sounds become totally muted when you enter certain areas, and ambient sounds change instantly on the edge between areas instead of fading into the distance.
    the original series had very similar things happening when switching ambient tracks or move between rooms. i suppose it can be irritating, but the idea is that you dont have to bother with the previous environment anymore so they remove the sound from there.
    Sound propagation doesn't exist in 99% of the areas in the levels. Sounds travel through solid rock, and sometimes fail to travel past a few pillars.
    i cant find any records of this happening to others or myself :&
    NPC foosteps are often difficult to hear. The earlier games relied on the player's ability to determine NPC locations based on sound.
    this one doesent however, and that should be kept in mind. if youre not supposed to rely on something, you dont get to use it as much.
    NPC conversations repeat indefinitely and the sequence of lines can get scrambled. NPCs can forget to deliver their lines, resulting in a strange nonsensical monologue.
    Conversations where the NPCs are hidden inside buildings follow no rules of sound propagation or stereo hearing. It sounds like they're talking inside your head.
    good. otherwise you wouldnt be able to hear them. could have been solved better, but again. this is not something that should make someone want to play something else. it is an accepted quirkiness of games in my *opinion*
    Looking through keyholes mutes the area you're in. You only hear what's on the other side.
    Cutscene audio volume is totally messed up. Characters speak too quietly, or NPCs in the environment talk over the main characters.
    reminds me of the t2 mission where you have to listen to karras, carras, anyway. lots of dialogue in those games was inaudible at times due to the environment. and t3 employs the "beaming it into your mind" method.

    Contextual interaction:
    Activating objects can accidentally put you into peeking mode (picking up items, dragging bodies, opening containers).
    Jumping restricted to pre-programmed spots.
    jumping was pointless in t3 and nobody really complained. though it did have some more climbing. not being able to jump like a maniac fits the game however and strengthens the theme of "you are a sneaky thief" not some jumping maniac. i certainly didnt miss it, and barely anyone else mentions it.
    Dropping down from ledges arbitrarily requires- or doesn't require the use of the "drop"-key. Player gets false sense of security and can fall off ledges that normally wouldn't allow that.
    Swooping can accidentally make you climb an obstacle.
    Rope arrows only stick to specific points, but you can still shoot them at anything and waste them.
    flash bombs only stun people from the front, but you can still throw them behind someone! this is mostly a user error.
    Controls do different things in certain situations (press cancel to drop even though there is a drop-key).
    Knockouts are contextual. Blackjack can't be selected manually like the bow.
    the blackjack is on a quickuse key and does not need to be selected. this is super convenient and you dont look like a cavetroll every time you try to use it.
    The only difference between a container closet and a hiding closet is visual appearance, and you can't cancel a transition into a hiding closet.
    hiding closets have clearly visible slits that allow you to see through them. reminds me of the junk loot chests in the originals.

    Control:
    Mouse smoothing that can't be disabled.
    the game does not come with mouse smoothing, but snuffer an issue where playing it in windowed mode will introduce mouse lag.
    Object targeting is designed for analog controllers with inaccurate aiming, making it harder to target exact objects with more precise mouse control.
    ive had absolutely no problems targeting things with my mouse. instead of phrasing it like a fact, keep it professional and reword it to reflect your experience and opinion. this applies to a lot of the "review" btw
    Unrelated actions can be bound to the same key.
    Contextual actions can't be bound to separate keys.
    No hotkey for Map screen.
    M opens the minimap unless disabled. if you disabled that: your bad.
    Combination locks have infuriating controls. It would be so much better to just target a dial and activate to turn.

    Handholding:
    NPC:s arbitrarily stand by until player has obeyed the demands of tutorials.
    like thief 1 and 3, cool.
    No option to disable tutorial messages, no option for "Don't show this message again".
    Mission objectives are indicated by icons on the map, and the in-game information that leads you to your goal mostly doesn't exist. The game assumes that everyone relies on the icons.
    which is why they are on by default unless you specifically tell it otherwise. this is self inflicted. id argue that playing on a custom difficulty the first time through is a terrible idea that will delude the experience with self imposed problems. (i did supreme ghost as best as possible on the first playthrough with everything off)
    Overpowered automap can be disabled in options, but it also gets rid of the on-screen compass.
    Player can disable Focus-system, but the Focus-gimmick is integrated as part of the lore and Focus powerups can still be picked up in the levels.
    i am limiting myself not to use arrows but arrows can still be found in the level! oh...
    Garrett uses monologue to reveal things to the player that he couldn't possibly know beforehand. Players aren't made to find that info themselves.
    thief 1,2, and to an extend 3 primarily used 'lore' to convey their story. bits and hints scattered through the environment. this helped further the feeling of exploration together with the open and interconnected levels.
    thief 2014 however primarily uses storytelling to convey its narrative, preferring to engage the player directly and telling a story about whats happening right now, instead of what has happened in the past.
    these two styles are very different.

    from my experience garret only elaborates/ talks about things that we, the player, would had been able to gather yourself from previous dialogue. or that we absolutely *could not* have, but that he already knew beforehand. ofc there might be an instance or two where its a little bit of a long shot.

    Optional eavesdropping is sometimes replaced by cutscenes that forcefully highlight the relevant info for the player.
    good. this ties into the story telling bit above. since the game is trying to tell a story, it can not afford to have you miss the important bits. in addition it uses these opportunities to convey important information about the level to you.
    Keys to unpickable locks are found in the absolute immediate vicinity of the lock.
    often the same in t1,2,3. the linear level design will probably have influenced this a bit. at the same time... who keeps the keys to their office on the other side of the universe?
    Searching for secret switches is a special gameplay mode that activates from a wide area. Previous games forced players to find small hidden switches.
    i believe this happens exactly once?
    Lightning flashes are timed exactly with little to no variation, and there's a small warning flash before each big one.
    make sense considering how electricity works, also helps make gameplay less frustrating by not randomly exposing the player because of being terrible at telling them whats going on. i remember a few lights in t1 that did that.

    Interface:
    Savegames are categorized nonsensically, with a list of huge items where only a few are visible at the same time.
    nitpicky much? ohh it doesnet display the saves in a more simplistic way. whatever will i do! clearly i should not play this game if the save menu, which is functionally perfectly fine, doesent look it.
    Map screen has no option of switching pages. If you go into a house, you can't view city map.
    Player needs to navigate several menus to read documents even right after finding them in the game.
    only if you turn that off in the options. otherwise you will be presented with a hotkey every time you pick something up that immediately takes you to that entry
    Player can disable lockpicking overlay and play just fine, but not the frame-searching overlay.
    ive had both off. it works just fine thanks to the visual cues on garrets hands.
    Stealth shroud effect on screen can't be disabled, but the light gem can. Both should be optional.
    id argue that you really really shouldnt disable both since the game relies on them to tell you if youre hidden. something we can all agree is vital to the series play ability. the shroud is ugly though.
    Light gem is in the corner of the screen, far from your center of focus.
    meh
    Most loading screens are disguised as narrow pathways that waste your time. If you have a fast SSD, you are still forced to wait. On top of that, they have button-mash QuickTime Events.
    blame the existence of consoles, not the devs. and heck "i cant use my ssd to skip loading screens" isnt really worth scrutinizing a game for is it now?

    Mechanics:
    Shooting mechanics with the bow have no projectile drop, and string doesn't need to be drawn to fire off a shot. Easy to accidentally waste arrows.
    the projectile drop in t1,2,3 was always vastly exaggerated beyond how it should actually work.
    Rope arrows can't be recovered from where you've attached them.
    why would you want to do that? it is completely unnecessary in this game.
    The one officially recognized form of melee combat is the modern equivalent of an unintended strategy of strafe-bashing with the blackjack in Thief:TDP.
    i think the memo is still: dont fight enemies.
    Can't aim flashbombs. Only option is to drop one at your feet.
    which is done so you have an incentive to use other distraction tools. meh
    Disarming traps is the only supported way of avoiding them due to the inability to jump over pressure plates.
    Only unpickable locks have keys. If a lock is pickable, you have to pick it. There are no regular keys in the entire game. Consequently, locks can never be relocked.
    why should this turn people away from playing the game again? relocking something is completely pointless in this game. so why should you be able to do it?
    Many side areas or side quests don't have enough loot to make up for the expendable tools used to get there.

    Stealth:
    No matter how stealthily you play, Garrett gets caught multiple times in a cutscene outside the player's control.
    The amount of lighting that makes you visible to NPCs seems to change arbitrarily. Sometimes very dark areas fail to hide you, and other times you become invisible in well-lit areas.
    dont turn off the light gem. this is why you cant and shouldnt do it in the other games. it is a vital tool to you because the visuals of a game can not be controlled by the devs. someone might use flux, have their gamma different, play in a lit vs dark room. all these tings will change your perception of light and dark, the lightgem is there as a fail save to prevent this from being an issue.
    Only a few specific types of objects can alert NPCs when you bump into them. Vases falling over alert them, but kicking around a shovel or a bucket doesn't, even though they do make noise.
    Ground material has no effect on how loud your footsteps are. Only shards of glass and shallow water make your footsteps loud.
    Swooping is faster than running, but makes almost no noise.
    yeah thats silly
    Some objects do not cast shadows from NPC-carried light sources. This can get the player in trouble.

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2005
    Location: Heart of Darkness
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDuriel View Post
    here my overly snarky and aggressively worded arguments regarding the review. dont take it to heart. i dont really give a damn, but lets be honest, most of this is not something that should make someone reconsider playing the game.
    95% of your criticism is just as uniformed as you imply my criticism to be, or entirely subjective on the grounds of arbitrarily defending unnecessary changes or additions Thi4f made, or just anecdotal dismissal that needs proof to refute. There were a few valid points though. I needed most of the fingers of a whole hand to count them. Fortunately Steam has a rating system for reviews, and if one thinks that a review is not helpful, they can thumb it down.

    Fortunately I happen to have proof: Playlist - Thi4f and why it sucks

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDuriel View Post
    Activating objects can accidentally put you into peeking mode (picking up items, dragging bodies, opening containers).
    Jumping restricted to pre-programmed spots.
    jumping was pointless in t3 and nobody really complained. though it did have some more climbing. not being able to jump like a maniac fits the game however and strengthens the theme of "you are a sneaky thief" not some jumping maniac. i certainly didnt miss it, and barely anyone else mentions it.
    You put in quite some work playing devil's advocate. This reminds me how b1skit tried to defend the jumping restriction back then:
    EDIT: no implications; but the jumping really jumped my nerves

    Quoted on http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=138579
    Garrett would never randomly hop, skip and jump through the world. He just wouldn't. Honestly, if you need to spam the jump button continually for no reason to truly feel immersed a game, or need to be able to randomly pop yourself into the air like a grasshopper with the hiccups - then hell, maybe Thief isn't for you. But, check out Team Fortress 2 - it's free to play and you'll probably love it!

    As someone who has played the game more than anybody else outside of the dev team, I can assure you that free jumping would ruin immersion. Pogo hopping through the world like a shop manequin on a spring would seem incredibly out of place, dated and overly simplistic within the context of the rest of the rich and tactile mechanics that have been created soley to make you feel like a Master Thief slipping through the world.
    [...]
    Consider that this only has become an 'issue' on the forums here after someone quoted a snippet of a text interview.[...]

    You can't free jump just for no reason - but you can jump whenever and wherever you need to jump. It's fluid. It's slick. You tap the jump button in the EXACT same way, with the exact same timing as if you had a free jump. In fact, if you weren't told that you couldn't free jump, and only tried to jump when you needed to jump to, you would have NO idea that you couldn't bunny hop around like convulsing jack-in-the-box. It's only when you tap the jump button while standing in the middle of a room with nothing to jump on that you DON'T jump.

    So, I hear you asking, what happens when you DO press the jump button, but there is nothing to jump on?

    You SWOOP!

    It's AWESOME - [...]
    Good times. This was the moment the whole project died for me. Set aside that they just wanted to restrict player movement so it's easier for the leveldesigner to crap out levels...

    Noone asked for constant bunny hopping. I doubt that people did it in Thief, especially T2 or T. And even if someone wants to play it that way, alerting every soul in his vicinity approaching so he gets his ass handed by the guards, let him/her.

    The point is that the Player/Garrett has every reason to use his jumping in combination with moss or rope arrows to lure guards for no-cost (at least when rope arrows are involved) away from their position and circumventing them by using a mossed path/roping up/down. Saying how Garrett never makes a noise makes no sense seeing how he carries fire arrows and NOISEMAKERS around.

    Just rereading this pisses me off again. Taking away options from the player as it ruins immersion. Are you **** me? So the player needs to be protected from himself playing the game as he would enjoy it the most? Thief player are accepting limitations (rope arrows need wood; no shooting from water without solid ground), although at times they annoy as well, but to take away basic movement as gaming progresses is amazing.
    Last edited by thief-outside-a-box; 13th Oct 2016 at 15:15.

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Jumping is far from pointless in Thief. Just being able to jump over low obstacles (like an ankle-high pipe) or over traps or from carpet to carpet is enough to make it useful. Next to stuff like no-return sections, it was one of the changes in the reboot that probably pissed me off the most.

  6. #31
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2005
    Location: Heart of Darkness
    Do threads disappear after a month of inactivity?

  7. #32
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Yes. They disappear forever. That's why there are no threads like that on this forum. Certainly not hundreds of them.

  8. #33
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    They drop off a forums' threads-listing after a month(depending on your settings), but you can scroll to the bottom and change it under "Thread Display Options", or change it in your General Settings to make it permanent.

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2014
    It's extremely close, because while I actually do think Thief 4 feels better to play compared to Thief 3 being clunky as hell, I still have to give it the edge simply because the story and voice acting is much better. I almost voted for Thief 4, but ultimately I have to give it to 3 because it feels more like Thief, ultimately, even though like I said the game play feels clunky and even on modern machines, the game feels like it runs like ass, not to mention those abysmal load times. Still, at least it doesn't have level design that has a shit ton of points of no return.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Buccura View Post
    It's extremely close, because while I actually do think Thief 4 feels better to play compared to Thief 3 being clunky as hell, I still have to give it the edge simply because the story and voice acting is much better. I almost voted for Thief 4, but ultimately I have to give it to 3 because it feels more like Thief, ultimately, even though like I said the game play feels clunky and even on modern machines, the game feels like it runs like ass, not to mention those abysmal load times. Still, at least it doesn't have level design that has a shit ton of points of no return.
    Thank you for your nice answer.

  11. #36
    I give 4 the edge because of the gameplay, but obviously 3 has a huge advantage in terms of everything else.

  12. #37
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    Deadly Shadows, of course.
    This. Actually Deadly Shadows is pretty good, if you get over the obvious limitation due to the console development. And the soundtrack is IMO the best of the 3 Brosius Thief soundtracks.

  13. #38
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Thief: i herd u liek loading zoens Deadly Shadows was such a comedown from the first two that I find it difficult to understand how anyone could believe it to be less of a disappointment than Thief 4.

    - The ridiculous climbing gloves, because they literally couldn't code rope arrows into the game; and of course, there was almost nothing you could actually climb.
    - The risible city hub, with streets that were a permanent bloodbath as endlessly respawning enemies murdered each other for belonging to different factions (both of whom you could side with, rendering the whole faction system pointless).
    - Garrett not only losing his ability to swim, but displaying an allergy to water not seen in any fictional character since the Wicked Witch of the West. I bet this Garrett stinks, because having a bath would literally kill him.
    - Flagons of oil that allowed you to turn a stealth game into slapstick comedy. Is this Thief or Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em?

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    - The ridiculous climbing gloves, because they literally couldn't code rope arrows into the game; and of course, there was almost nothing you could actually climb.
    Actually, i would rather say that it probably made development easier that way, plus, due to the console restrictions, they probably couldn't make big enough areas to really make use of that anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    - The risible city hub, with streets that were a permanent bloodbath as endlessly respawning enemies murdered each other for belonging to different factions (both of whom you could side with, rendering the whole faction system pointless).
    Mh... can't really recall many situations where "the streets were a permanent bloodbath". At the very least, i think that is vastly exaggerated.

  15. #40
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by chk772 View Post
    Actually, i would rather say that it probably made development easier that way
    Actually, what you would rather say is irrelevant, because the given reason for rope arrows' absence is correct. Both rope arrows and swimming got chopped from TDS because the programmers couldn't figure out how to make them work with the Havok physics system.

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Did one of the devs state that?

    Anyway, i still think the other points from SD are exaggerated. E.g. there is no "permanent bloodbath" in the city hubs. If you don't like the game, cool. No need to spread untruths.

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    TDS was a disappointment for many people, yes, but it also had some redeeming qualities like the unfortunately named Robbing the Cradle level, for example. The stealth mechanics largely worked, if you overlooked a few issues with movement and the loading zones, the music was good, and there were funny bits of dialogue with quality voice acting. I think that if it had had better art design and bigger levels, it could have been on par with the first games even without rope arrows or swimming.
    Last edited by Starker; 2nd Jan 2017 at 01:55.

  18. #43
    The way Garrett moves and interacts with the environment in TDS is a bigger travesty than any of the other gameplay problems it has.

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