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Thread: Give Me Deus Ex

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2015

    Give Me Deus Ex

    GMDX is a mod I've been following for a while. It aims at making robust gameplay systems while improving a lot of technical matters like the AI. They've revealed their release date and plan to release a bunch of videos in the lead up to the release. Three videos are out already:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKHPtfammNY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny0wLI-ZWOY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsOoTF5TL0Y

    So far, this is shaping up to be something great. Let's see if the mod will live up to it.

  2. #2
    Huh, that's the first DX mod that looks like something I'd want to use. The helmet thing is odd (stopping a 10mm round at close range?) but overall I like that it seems to be primarily adding "immersive sim" stuff that doesn't seem out of place in the a DX game.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Maybe it stops a handgun round but not a rifle, that would be somewhat believable. The change that had me scratching my head a little bit is allowing enemy NPCs to walk through their own laser traps.

    Anyway, the vast majority of the changes highlighted in the videos seem well thought out. But I'm not so sure about the modifications he's made to skills and augs and loot in the name of balancing, which aren't really mentioned in the videos. Sounds like difficulty has been greatly increased overall and character building is way more important than before. I would expect it to play more like a hardcore RPG, and less sandboxy than the original.

    There's a handful of reviews on ModDB, but given that GMDX has been out for a couple years I'm surprised there's not more, and surprised that it hasn't been discussed here either.

    I'm not sure whether to try this or Revision first.

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2015
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Anyway, the vast majority of the changes highlighted in the videos seem well thought out. But I'm not so sure about the modifications he's made to skills and augs and loot in the name of balancing, which aren't really mentioned in the videos. Sounds like difficulty has been greatly increased overall and character building is way more important than before. I would expect it to play more like a hardcore RPG, and less sandboxy than the original.
    He recently said that he won't merely focus on making the gameplay harder and will try to polish up the overall mechanics. In fact, Easy and Normal will actually be easier now according to this post of his: http://www.offtopicproductions.com/f...112769#p112769

    As for Revision, what I've been hearing and seeing about it convinces me more and more that it's a mediocre product with the only real upside being somewhat prettier levels in places. Going by that information, I wouldn't recommend it, but it's upto you.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2015
    A new video is out:


  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2005
    Some people might balk at the feature creep design philosophy but I like it. Throwing knives that bounce off metal objects, now that's some attention to detail.

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2015
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Maybe it stops a handgun round but not a rifle
    Correct.

    The change that had me scratching my head a little bit is allowing enemy NPCs to walk through their own laser traps.
    It's one of the good things from the sequels. The less unnecessary Klaxon alarms the better. Cameras, Alarm units, detection whilst hacking, acoustic sensors as well as laser triggers...in every level there's numerous things with the potential to set off an alarm, and with the combat playstyle especially all you fucking hear is klaxons.

    But I'm not so sure about the modifications he's made to skills and augs and loot in the name of balancing, which aren't really mentioned in the videos.
    You'll see more on that shortly.

    Sounds like difficulty has been greatly increased overall and character building is way more important than before. I would expect it to play more like a hardcore RPG, and less sandboxy than the original.
    A hardcore RPG is indeed the goal, yet with the sandbox gameplay intended to remain. All those options are simply made more meaningful and require more thought, and there are more options than ever. And yeah, as Dev_Anj said, on lower difficulties players will have a much easier time, but to experience the true vision playing on higher difficulties is required.

    There's a handful of reviews on ModDB, but given that GMDX has been out for a couple years I'm surprised there's not more, and surprised that it hasn't been discussed here either.
    A lack of marketing on my part, in addition to the release of earlier versions as opposed to holding out and building hype. But hey, it wouldn't qualify as a "true" LGS-inspired mod if it weren't niche eh
    Last edited by GMDX Dev; 13th Nov 2015 at 23:27.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Welcome to TTLG!

    Thanks for the additional info. I am looking forward to playing it.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2015
    The next video got delayed so here's a list of AI features:

    http://genericname112.wix.com/gmdx#!...elligence/c8ao

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2015
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Welcome to TTLG!

    Thanks for the additional info. I am looking forward to playing it.
    Thanks for the welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dev_Anj View Post
    The next video got delayed so here's a list of AI features:

    http://genericname112.wix.com/gmdx#!...elligence/c8ao
    Thanks for keeping people posted, Dev_Anj. To expand on your post though, that is the full list of AI features (extremely minor & pedantic tweaks aside) as it stands in its current state.

    If anyone has any problems with anything in that list make it be known before release. It shouldn't be the case though. So much of it is just the slavish fixing of vanilla issues, and addition of greater logical depth.
    Last edited by GMDX Dev; 17th Nov 2015 at 21:49.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by GMDX Dev View Post
    If anyone has any problems with anything in that list make it be known before release.
    I recently replayed DX and I find it annoying how the game forces you to remain still in order to shoot accurately while enemies don't have any penalties for shooting while moving (and boy, do they move fast...). Have you made any changes to this? (I'm sorry if you have and it's in the list somewhere).

    I've also noticed that sometimes when you hit an enemy that's suffocating (due to a gas grenade or pepper spray), he'll magically and instantly recover for a fraction of a second, which is sometimes enough to one-shot kill you (especially snipers, at close-range).

    Which brings me to another major issue I've always had with the game (especially on higher difficulties): how most of the time you're punished for your failures with insta-death and a reload. Which is not much of a punishment at all, quite the opposite in fact. You're essentially rewarded for your failure with a second chance. Plus, it completely breaks any sense of immersion you might have had, and renders medkits completely useless since there's only two states: alive or dead.

    Now I know you've overhauled the difficulty settings, but some of the changes you've made like faster rotation speed for turrets, or certain improvement to bots, seem like they would just create more insta-death situations. I think it would be more interesting gameplay-wise if the player was left severely injured but alive after a confrontation. Maybe boosting chest and head resistance making the player harder to kill but forcing him to use his medkits on his arms and legs if he wants to be able to walk and aim.

    One more thing. In all my years playing DX I never succeeded once in knocking out an AI that was in a sitting position with the baton. I don't know if it's a known bug or if it's just me, but I've always found it annoying.

    I'm not asking for a taylor-made mod obviously, I'm just curious as to what your philosophy is in designing this mod, especially in regards to the difficulty settings and insta-death.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2015
    Quote Originally Posted by Manwe View Post
    I recently replayed DX and I find it annoying how the game forces you to remain still in order to shoot accurately while enemies don't have any penalties for shooting while moving (and boy, do they move fast...). Have you made any changes to this? (I'm sorry if you have and it's in the list somewhere).
    The accuracy system remains mostly the same. I love it. It doesn't force you to stand still per se, focusing on weapon skills or using the laser mod can eliminate that need pretty early in the game. Anyhow, you'll be happy to know that there is now a perk that makes the standing still accuracy bonus act 30% faster.


    Which brings me to another major issue I've always had with the game (especially on higher difficulties): how most of the time you're punished for your failures with insta-death and a reload.
    Now this is where I agree. The design of the vanilla game was bullshit in this regard. There were only two tracefire weapons in the vanilla game that could insta-kill you from full health: the pistol and the sniper rifle (the latter of which few enemies use across the game). The fact that pistols were most common at the beginning of the game and were non-existent later on contributed considerably to Deus Ex's declining difficulty curve. And facing hordes of enemies that always have a chance to instakill you from full health was just bullshit, especially when this is not true of later enemies in the game. GMDX fixes this, you can survive a pistol headshot from full health even on the highest difficulties. One big focus on the mod is in making the gameplay more balanced and engaging, and this definitely fell under that focus. Aside from this, AI are better in pretty much every way which makes for much more engaging encounters rather than relying too heavily on RNG to determine if you live or die. Sniper rifles still have the ability to instakill you if you aren't wearing armor or have ballistic protection though, which I find is fair as they are few and far between and easily identifiable, the threat will be unique to them. On easy difficulty NPC snipers now also take their time to aim, but I doubt anyone here intends to play on easy.

    One more thing. In all my years playing DX I never succeeded once in knocking out an AI that was in a sitting position with the baton. I don't know if it's a known bug or if it's just me, but I've always found it annoying.
    Yeah, lots of bullshit at play here, but once you know the caveats it is no longer a problem: to knock out an enemy, aim for their mid-section. When sneaking and behind an enemy aiming for the head is much less effective than the torso. I may change this, but I know I did increase the head multiplier of non-lethal weapons to be closer to the other multipliers.
    Also adding to the bullshit is that only some types of chairs enable you to perform a torso hit (by aiming through the chair itself no less)! Some chair types would block the hit, others you can sneak attack them through the chair. To know which allows this, watch if the reticule changes red. Honestly the safest bet for seated NPCs is to use the prod or mini-crossbow (in GMDX both are more effective).
    This seat/torso hit nonsense is indeed poor design, so what I'll do is make a player-instigated headshot at close range from behind deal the same damage multiplier as a sneak attack/hit from behind to the torso, which will fix all the problems (and be identical to Thief sneak attacks). Thanks for sparking this thought!
    Last edited by GMDX Dev; 18th Nov 2015 at 10:11.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by GMDX Dev View Post
    This seat/torso hit nonsense is indeed poor design, so what I'll do is make a player-instigated headshot at close range from behind deal the same damage multiplier as a sneak attack/hit from behind to the torso, which will fix all the problems (and be identical to Thief sneak attacks). Thanks for sparking this thought!
    Wow thanks for the answers, but don't go breaking your mod on my account

    I'll play it no matter what. I just can't get enough of DX.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2015
    Part 5 is out:


  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2005
    I have yet another question regarding another bug/issue. Are you going to fix the night-vision goggles so that they actually allow you to see in the dark instead of just applying a green filter over the screen? What about the vision aug? It seems this would be the first thing people would try to fix, but to my knowledge no mod has ever done it.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2015
    I'll take a look.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2014
    Location: In Cragscleft
    Any chance this mod will be compatible with Revision?

  18. #18
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2015
    Pretty sure CyberP has told multiple times that he will not make GMDX compatible with Revision because they have different design perspectives, and it would be a lot of work with little benefit. The only people who would play it would be Revision players after all.

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2015
    A minor detail, but the greasel attack animation has been changed:


  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: the Sheeple Pen
    Quote Originally Posted by GMDX Dev View Post
    GMDX fixes this, you can survive a pistol headshot from full health even on the highest difficulties.
    In a game like Deus Ex (that isn't really an action FPS) I wouldn't call that a "fix".

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    I agree if we're talking about Realistic difficulty, which is supposed to encourage you to play tactically and not get into gun battles in the open where you stand a fair chance of getting shot in the head.

    At Hard or lower difficulty, the fix makes more sense. If you're trying to play a combat-focused play style, and you know you are going to get randomly and unpredictably insta-killed in 1 out of every 5 (or whatever) enemy encounters, you're just going to quick save a lot and reload when you die. The 'fix' gives you the option of trying to play without reloads, which is actually more challenging.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2015
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomi View Post
    In a game like Deus Ex (that isn't really an action FPS) I wouldn't call that a "fix".
    Did you not read that the only weapons that have this capability vanilla are the pistol and the sniper rifle? Are you trying to argue from a perspective of realism/simulation, because that does not have any basis since we can survive multiple assault rifle and shotgun pellets to the head even on realistic. Do you know why we can? Gameplay balance. And this is why we can now survive a pistol shot too.
    And to also repeat: the pistol in the hands of the enemy is only encountered in the first 1/3rd of the game, after that it is very rare to see one, and is instead replaced by the assault gun and shotguns which do not have the ability to instakill headshot. It very much is a fix. A fix of consistency and difficulty curve, and on top of that makes firefights more enjoyable.

    And yes, Deus Ex is in-part an action FPS/Sneaker/RPG, this is the core of the experience in fact. Simulation doesn't override gameplay and never has in a Looking Glass game, it is merely the basis for it, otherwise we'd bleed out/be rendered immobile from a single torso shot too and that'd be it.

    I agree if we're talking about Realistic difficulty, which is supposed to encourage you to play tactically and not get into gun battles in the open where you stand a fair chance of getting shot in the head.
    No. It is poor design to start the player off with nothing versus hordes of instakill RNG enemies, only to later in the game become a god from the machine with all these augmentations, skills, inventory items etc that faces NO instakill RNG enemies (aside from the rare sniper). In the vanilla game, the RNG instakill bullshit compensated for the AI's considerable incompetence and is no longer needed.
    In GMDX tactical play is enforced and deepened via various other means, including much more competent AI. I'll post the AI list once more and I encourage you to check it out.
    Last edited by GMDX Dev; 25th Nov 2015 at 04:49.

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    I don't know about you, but I've been "instakilled" more times in the vanilla game by assault rifles than pistols. Yes, it may take more than one bullet, but the rate of fire is enough that you can be killed in an instant on Realistic. I'm pretty sure I've been instakilled by shotguns too on the rare occasion where an enemy caught me by surprise at point blank range.

    Anyway, starting off the game weak is part of the core experience of Deus Ex. I learned pretty early in my first playthrough that I wasn't going to get through the game engaging enemies in the open and circle strafing them FPS-style. And the pistol-wielding NSF were not my biggest concern. The guys with crossbows are what I really feared.

    Later in the game you do face more difficult enemies, but I agree that there is a declining difficulty curve, especially with certain overpowered augs and items.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2015
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    I don't know about you, but I've been "instakilled" more times in the vanilla game by assault rifles than pistols. Yes, it may take more than one bullet, but the rate of fire is enough that you can be killed in an instant on Realistic. I'm pretty sure I've been instakilled by shotguns too on the rare occasion where an enemy caught me by surprise at point blank range.
    For an assault rifle to kill you "instantly", you'd need four of its five round burst shots to all hit the head. Bear in mind we are talking from full health. The chances are slim. At close range they could put you down pretty quickly with a couple of bursts, but other than that it was a lot more forgiving than facing off against, say, 30+ terrorists on the first level the majority of which have pistols that could put you down in one hit heavily influenced by RNG, all the while you have little tools, augs or skills.

    Anyway, starting off the game weak is part of the core experience of Deus Ex.
    And this is not changed.

    And the pistol-wielding NSF were not my biggest concern. The guys with crossbows are what I really feared.
    This probably shouldn't be the case, as you have plenty of time to react accordingly to the ongoing poison damage, plus crossbow darts are projectiles (and can therefore be dodged) rather than tracefire instahit. NPCs with crossbows are generally much more accurate than pistol wielders though, which is another issue of consistency.

    Later in the game you do face more difficult enemies, but I agree that there is a declining difficulty curve, especially with certain overpowered augs and items.
    GMDX intends to at least steady it, but you attain so much power that it is a difficult thing to do. Much more capable AI with extra focus on late game enemies is primarily how its done.

    One thing about me and GMDX: I'm very confident in my design ability. This is intended to be Deus Ex pushed to its potential. Once you have played GMDX, let me know if you think I've succeeded in that, and we'll discuss the specifics further.
    I know what Deus Ex is, I've played it coming up 20 times at this point, and have played (and loved) all the LGS classics. To me LGS still are the pinnacle of role-playing/player agency-based game design.
    Last edited by GMDX Dev; 25th Nov 2015 at 15:45.

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