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View Poll Results: Should Britain leave the European Union?

Voters
52. You may not vote on this poll
  • YES!...Must Brexit!

    20 38.46%
  • NO!...We Must Remain!

    25 48.08%
  • I have no idea what I want, yet I will vote anyway!

    7 13.46%
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Thread: BREXIT --->

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea

    BREXIT --->

    To Brexit or not to Brexit?...That is the question!

    Let's get this party started!...



    Edit:

    Final Results...UK Votes to LEAVE the EU

    Last edited by Vae; 24th Jun 2016 at 03:18.

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2003
    Location: Finland
    Get out Britain while you can!

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Before it's too late!...

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    While I have a UK passport, I've never lived in the UK (other than in Glasgow for a couple of months back in 2000). I don't think I could vote, but if I could I'd very much vote remain. The EU is deeply flawed, but I think it's more important to repair and improve it than to leave. I find the current return to nationalism that's happening throughout Europe wrongheaded, a naive and dangerous form of nostalgia - the problems the world faces aren't national ones, by and large, they are international. In addition, there have been many important regulations (e.g. with respect to workers' rights and environmental protection) that were pretty much brought about by Europe; I don't trust the current UK government to act in the long-term interests of anyone other than big business and the financial industry.

  5. #5
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Remain. I have yet to hear a single valid argument for leave which is rooted in facts. I've heard plenty of good reasons to leave based on misunderstandings of how the EU works and a lot of very naive ones which assume the UK is still some kind of power to be reckoned with. Europe is a great group of countries and the UK isn't in the top 50% for quality of life, income equality or social mobility, so I don't think it's the EU bringing the UK down, but a little bit vice-versa.

    The other thing I find inane is the disdain people seem to have for other countries voting on things which affect the UK, despite all of the other countries also having to accept those things and the fact that in the UK, other constituencies in the UK vote on things which affect yours - they're also people you'll never meet who may have completely different needs to you, which leads me to think that the main objection is that it's foreign people.

    Of course, I remain open to correction.

  6. #6
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    The EU has spent the last 70-odd years negotiating agreements on 1000 different cross-border issues that Brexit just forces the UK to have to re-do now under prejudice to just work out the same agreements but worse. People that think it's going to defend UK sovereignty or whatever will find that not much can even really change practically on the regulatory front, even if people wanted it to (not that they care about the actual mechanics of trade & services regulation and economies of scale), but people that depend on some EU program or another will find life harder without them. Real costs and imaginary benefits.

  7. #7
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    Real costs and imaginary benefits.
    POW! That's it in a nutshell.

  8. #8
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    It's a matter of principle.

    People should be ruled by the people themselves. The larger the scale of an organization, the further away the decision process will be. Democracy starts around the corner. Not 1000 kilometers away. It's hard enough to convince your local Town Hall to do something, even if you have a large group in your town that wants something. Trying to convince your local government is almost impossible these day. Trying to achieve something on european scale will be impossible. Governments are autonomous bodies that, once in power, kinda don't have to explain or justify why they do things. Nobody is ever accountable. When the scale of governement grows, that becomes even larger. Corruption will become worse. Cronyism will become worse. Large corporations will pay huge sums of money to lobby for their cause. But a simple civilian will have no say in any matter any more.

    Small scale is always better. More honest. More fair. More efficient. More accessible. More accountable. More human.

    Fuck the EU.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Iacon
    I have my reservations about the EU and was undecided for a long time. I don't really know what consequences of leaving would be. But, eh, probably in our economic interests to remain? Also without any EU law to adhere to our Tory overlords might become even more villainous.

  10. #10
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    There is no small scale government option on the table and physical proximity to the people making the decisions matters not a jot. The UK government is fucking the UK people more than the EU ever could. In fact, the UK government has had trouble from the EU because some of the ways it has fucked over disabled people who can't work is against EU human rights directives. The EU is very far from ideal, but remaining a member is definitely the lesser of two evils where the UK is concerned.

    [EDIT] Ninja'd by Chimpy.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    It's a matter of principle.

    People should be ruled by the people themselves. The larger the scale of an organization, the further away the decision process will be. Democracy starts around the corner. Not 1000 kilometers away. It's hard enough to convince your local Town Hall to do something, even if you have a large group in your town that wants something. Trying to convince your local government is almost impossible these day. Trying to achieve something on european scale will be impossible. Governments are autonomous bodies that, once in power, kinda don't have to explain or justify why they do things. Nobody is ever accountable. When the scale of governement grows, that becomes even larger. Corruption will become worse. Cronyism will become worse. Large corporations will pay huge sums of money to lobby for their cause. But a simple civilian will have no say in any matter any more.

    Small scale is always better. More honest. More fair. More efficient. More accessible. More accountable. More human.

    Fuck the EU.
    Try building a road, sewerage, water, power and communications network with your town hall model. I mean people kinda (kinda) manage to do that in favela-type setups in places with extreme poverty and massively corrupt governments, but I imagine they'd much prefer a large, well-funded system to do it properly for them...

    Also - science funding. Who's going to pay for the kind of hugely expensive and complicated research that's actually likely to improve things for us all as a species - your human genome projects, your large hadron colliders, your fusion research, etc etc. Going back to small, autonomous local governments is regressive.
    Last edited by Vivian; 15th Jun 2016 at 08:00.

  12. #12
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    It's all a lot of very abstract concepts. Globalisation has certainly made a lot of things shit, but it has happened now - the horse has bolted. The UK leaving the EU in protest of big government is just shitting the bed for no gain.

  13. #13
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivian View Post
    Try building a road, sewerage, water, power and communications network with your town hall model.
    We had roads in my country before 2002, before 1992 and before the fifties. We don't need no EU for that, thank you very much.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Yeah fine, but were they built by a centralised government or not?

  15. #15
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    (Not to mention that the EU isn't a government)

  16. #16
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    The EU has only eyes and ears for big interests. Regular folks don't matter. Look at the US. Corporations own politicians. Politicians in the US only care about the interests of big corporations, lobby groups, other politicians and international factors. Media are now big corporations too, so they won't make any disruptive sounds.

    Do you like TTIP ? Do you think it is in the interest of the common man ? The EU and US overlords want TTIP. Nobody else wants it. BTW, do you enjoy the political process of how we're gonna get TTIP. Full secrecy until TTIP is done.

    I'll give you a small example. In my country we are slowly trying to ban what we call "the bio-industry". It seems there is no english translation for that. It's intensive animal farming, battery cages, etc. We've almost got rid of chickens farmed in super-efficient, but animal-unfriendly ways. It took years to convince supermarkets to stop selling that kind of meat.

    Now we suddenly have a trade agreement with Ukraine. (Note, 62% of Dutch voters have voted against such agreements. But EU says: "go" so we can all go fuck ourselves). In the Ukraine they got more important things to care about than animal-welfare. So now we're getting important chickens from the Ukraine, who were grown in ways we don't want. We can not forbid import of such products, because EU. If we would try to ban products made by slave labor, I bet the EU would forbid us to do that too.

    With the EU, the bottom-line is profits for large corporations. And nothing else. The EU is an ultra-conservative economically ultra-right wing organization. We'll be following the US model. It might take a few decades, but we'll get there. It'll be the end of the middle-class.

    What do you think the common man in Greece thinks about the EU ? Do you think they enjoy their new world peace and their new economic prosperity ?

    Did you vote for Jean-Claude Juncker or Donald Tusk ? I sure as hell didn't. And neither did any of you. Can we vote to get rid of them ? Nope. Are they accountable to anyone ? Nope. How can such an important organization like the EU have no democracy inside itself ? It's a farce.

    Another example of a farce. Let's talk about the decisiveness of the EU. And self-criticism and self-reflection. The EU has 2 head-quarters. Brussels and Strasbourg. This circus costs us somewhere between 120M and 300M euros per year. And nobody cares. They had over 30 years to fix this. But they didn't. And they won't. Because it's not their money, so they don't care. If the EU can't take this serious, if they can't fix such a simple issue, I am convinced they can not fix any important issue either. It's a useless importent extra layer of government.

    I could go on and on, if you'd like.
    The EU has brought absolutely nothing positive to my life. Nothing, nada.

  17. #17
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivian View Post
    Yeah fine, but were they built by a centralised government or not?
    There's a difference between decision-making, financing and the actual building. We have 3 layers of authority. Nation-wide (17 million people), provence-wide (1-2 million people) and community-wide (town or village, 20k-100k to conglomerates of small villages to a few 100k people in larger cities). Decisions about roads are made on all 3 levels. Who pays for it, and who builds it, are much less important matters.

    Yes, sometimes it took years or decades before a road was built. That's democracy. But I don't see how the EU could do this better. Do you mean they can just push their decision on us, without us having any say in the matter ? Nice fucking improvement that is.

  18. #18
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    (Not to mention that the EU isn't a government)
    That's a matter of language.
    You're english. Government is an english word.
    That does not mean we all use it the same way. For different people in different countries it means something else.

    In Dutch we use the word "overheid". It means any official public organization that is chosen via democracy, paid with tax money, and works in the public's interest. It includes community, town, village, city, provence and nation-wide organizations.

    It seems there is no proper english translation for this concept. At least not one I can find quickly. Online translations says "overheid == government". But it's not the same.

    Does the fact that I can not express my thoughts as clearly in your language as I could in my own language, mean that your thoughts are better ? I'd be happy to continue in Dutch.

  19. #19
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    The EU has only eyes and ears for big interests. Regular folks don't matter.
    A large amount of my working rights come directly from EU regulation. The UK is continually trying to erode worker rights in the UK and coming up against EU pressure to stop. Leaders in general don't ultimately care about the little people, you're right, but in this case, the UK government cares a lot less than the EU, which if you think about it, is terrifying.

    Look at the US. Corporations own politicians. Politicians in the US only care about the interests of big corporations, lobby groups, other politicians and international factors. Media are now big corporations too, so they won't make any disruptive sounds.
    Same in the UK, except for the bits which don't make it past EU regulation.

    Do you like TTIP ? Do you think it is in the interest of the common man ? The EU and US overlords want TTIP. Nobody else wants it. BTW, do you enjoy the political process of how we're gonna get TTIP. Full secrecy until TTIP is done.
    The UK government is fully in favour of TTIP. However the negotiation process is halted due to French objections. Without the EU, the UK would enter into a trade deal with far fewer concessions, I've no doubt.

    I'll give you a small example. In my country we are slowly trying to ban what we call "the bio-industry". It seems there is no english translation for that. It's intensive animal farming, battery cages, etc. We've almost got rid of chickens farmed in super-efficient, but animal-unfriendly ways. It took years to convince supermarkets to stop selling that kind of meat.

    Now we suddenly have a trade agreement with Ukraine. (Note, 62% of Dutch voters have voted against such agreements. But EU says: "go" so we can all go fuck ourselves). In the Ukraine they got more important things to care about than animal-welfare. So now we're getting important chickens from the Ukraine, who were grown in ways we don't want. We can not forbid import of such products, because EU. If we would try to ban products made by slave labor, I bet the EU would forbid us to do that too.
    What does this have to do with the UK? The title of the topic is Brexit.

    With the EU, the bottom-line is profits for large corporations. And nothing else. The EU is an ultra-conservative economically ultra-right wing organization. We'll be following the US model. It might take a few decades, but we'll get there. It'll be the end of the middle-class.
    With the UK, it is worse. It would be closer to the US model if it were not for the EU. Don't forget that the UK has a Gini coefficient far higher than the European average, so it's not like the EU caused this.

    What do you think the common man in Greece thinks about the EU ? Do you think they enjoy their new world peace and their new economic prosperity ?
    This is related to the UK. Greece voted in a relatively socialist government, so got a raw deal compared with what they expected. The UK has a nasty neo-lib right wing government, so the EU is the lesser of two evils.

    Did you vote for Jean-Claude Juncker or Donald Tusk ? I sure as hell didn't. And neither did any of you. Can we vote to get rid of them ? Nope. Are they accountable to anyone ? Nope. How can such an important organization like the EU have no democracy inside itself ? It's a farce.
    The UK has an entire unelected chamber with some posts being hereditary - over 800 people with a direct say in government. Also the UK has over 4x as many bureaucrats as the EU. So again, lesser of two evils.

    Another example of a farce. Let's talk about the decisiveness of the EU. And self-criticism and self-reflection. The EU has 2 head-quarters. Brussels and Strasbourg. This circus costs us somewhere between 120M and 300M euros per year. And nobody cares. They had over 30 years to fix this. But they didn't. And they won't. Because it's not their money, so they don't care. If the EU can't take this serious, if they can't fix such a simple issue, I am convinced they can not fix any important issue either. It's a useless importent extra layer of government.
    What on earth are you talking about? One is the seat of the European council the other is the seat of the European parliament. Do you get just as upset by there being more than one government building in your country?

    I could go on and on, if you'd like.

    The EU has brought absolutely nothing positive to my life. Nothing, nada.
    Which has what to do with the UK referendum exactly?
    Last edited by faetal; 15th Jun 2016 at 10:02.

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Just so long as this is being discussed in a dignified manner...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36537180

  21. #21
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    That's a matter of language.
    You're english. Government is an english word.
    Etc...
    No, I meant in the sense that the European Union, does not fulfil the same role as the British government. You see - they are two different words and carry out two different functions.
    No need to waste your time with semantics.

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    As an outsider looking in, there seems to be a whole lot of scare mongering going on, much like the Scottish independence vote. Can anyone point me to an explanation of exactly what the UK is withdrawing from. Is it just the Lisbon treaty? If so, do any of the multitude of earlier EU or related treaties remain in effect, or would this wipe the slate clean?

    As far as trade and regulations go, if the UK votes to leave I would expect the immediate impact to be nothing outside of some turmoil in financial markets, as businesses on both sides will continue operating as they currently do while a transition is being negotiated. Business lobbies on both sides will continue to push for free trade and regulatory harmonization and convergence regardless of whether the UK is in or out, so if common sense prevails I would expect the outcome to look a lot like the status quo and any deviation away from the EU will happen slowly.

    faetal - It seems like you're making your judgment based solely on the fact that the current Tory government is to the right of where you would like it to be.

  23. #23
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    That's a good deal of it yes. But you're mostly just seeing that because I'm debating with Gryz, whose argument is coming from a left of centre place, so that's framed the discussion I'm having somewhat. I'm generally a fan of most of the legislation which the EU has put forward to protect UK workers. There is a lot I would change, but so long as the EU is putting the brakes on the disastrous UK governments (which includes the previous Labour government) we've been having, then I'm in favour. If the UK was a more compassionate place and the EU was dragging it towards a more neo-liberal system, then I'd be in favour of leaving. Surely the idea that it's relative isn't a bad thing?

    It's a bit claymation to just base it on whether or not the EU is all good or all bad.

    Also, the UK is going to lose out on ALL EU science funding, which will be a massive brain drain for the UK. There are far too many benefits overall to just focus on single issues and wave hands around about very vague ideas of sovereignty.

  24. #24
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Gryz's argument would hit harder if it weren't for the fact "subsidiarity" is one of the most fundamental organizing principles of the EU, which says that EU directives only have perogative over issues that can't be addressed without joint action, and all other matters (including implementation) must devolve to the lowest possible level of government that's able to address it. That means if there's a regulation that can be completely addressed at a lower level of gov't, the EU doesn't even have the legal power to override it, and there's a court that will stop it if it tries. That's what subsidiarity means. And it's not like a side issues. That's always the major principle states are so paranoid to protect for every little thing they do.

    And then actually look at the directives. I mean it's things like there should be a common voltage & power-use standards so a hairdryer you buy in Italy doesn't literally catch on fire if you plug it into an outlet in Germany and things like that. The vast majority of stuff it does isn't political and it's hard to even figure out how you'd argue it's a bad thing except in some vague principle, "it's our God given right to have Italian hairdryers catch fire in our country if we damn well want them too!" temper tantrum.

    Edit. Incidently, full-disclosure, my law school JD thesis was specifically on different culturally important values, sovereignty, and EU regulation, like London being under pressure to accept Mercedes taxis that aren't black and boxy, Germany/Bavaria pressured to accept beer with additives, France to accept cheese or wine that don't follow their arcane labeling rules (Champagne not actually made in Champagne), etc, etc. It's actually a problem I was taking seriously & don't just dismiss it.

    Long story short, the EU has issues like any institution, but it also has a lot of built in mechanisms to deal with the problem, and actually in the end London got to keep their boxy taxis and France got to keep their arcane cheese and wine rules because culture still matters a lot (they were arguably losing cases that were wisely dodged or let pass), and those fights would probably have been more bitter without the EU. Inside, diplomacy avoids so many squabbles you never even see. And ok Bavaria didn't get to keep their beer purity laws, but (aside from "purity law" being a dodgy title for something coming out of Bavaria at the time) there was no evidence of any discernable effect on health or anything by the additives and their best argument was literally that Germans were at special risk because they drink so much more beer, which you know, E for Effort, but it's really not a great argument since health doesn't really work like that and culture by itself shouldn't be a free pass to cut yourself from the world either if you can't credibly back it up.
    Last edited by demagogue; 15th Jun 2016 at 12:28.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2008
    I'll be voting to stay next Thursday. I can't see leaving as anything other than a protracted pain in the arse that isn't likely to be better than what we already have.

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