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Thread: What a sad end to a great game

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    Dishonored is fantastic, but I think the similarities to Thief are largely superficial. I think it hews to the original Deus Ex design-wise more than anything else.
    Gameplay wise, you may be right (with all the magic skills and stuff). But, the stealth mechanics in Dishonored are more sophisticated than in Deus Ex, and, actually, i would have never considered playing it in Rambo-fashion, like you can do with Deus Ex, so, i would say, as a stealth game, it's rather close to Thief, than to Deus Ex really.

  2. #27
    Actually, Dishonored really shines as immersive sim when you play it brutal Rambo-style, while it's more of a self-reward to those who prefer ghosting or Thief style gameplay.

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    Actually, Dishonored really shines as immersive sim when you play it brutal Rambo-style, while it's more of a self-reward to those who prefer ghosting or Thief style gameplay.
    Which basically means that it's more of a stealth game, right?

    Anyway, you can play Thief as a hack and slay too, but who would do so really? It robs you off the essence of the game (ok, admittedly, in most cases, it would rather equal suicide in Thief). Same with Dishonored. Actually, just like in the newer Deus Ex, it rather reminds me of alibi mechanics, implemented to please the ever increasing action audience, which is too impatient for a strict stealth game. As mentioned, it MAY be possible to play it as a shooter, but, in all the hours i played it, i wouldn't even have thought to go that path.
    Last edited by chk772; 2nd Jan 2017 at 08:40.

  4. #29
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    Great share, Judith. I agree with the Errant Signal guy on all the negatives he mentioned, but not that the game was 'interesting'. I forgot to add loading times as another anti-immersion factor and also didn't like the whole 'Hub' idea. If I wanted to play TDS then I would have played it; I really didn't need a reboot of the accursed game. Also, 'dumpster diving' was SO accurate; that's exactly what it felt like. Can't wait to install my new, bigger hard drive so I can play Dishonored 2! I'll probably hang on to my copy of NuThief; maybe 5 yrs. down the road when I'm bored and waiting for the release of a much anticipated game I'll crank it up again. Then again, maybe not.

  5. #30
    Which basically means that it's more of a stealth game, right?

    Well, not really. Dishonored is more like "Want to be brutal psychopath? Bring it, bitch, we're ready!" Thief always stressed that killing is a mark of an amateur, the combat is also pretty clunky, even if you take the age of the game into account. Dishonored gives you an awesome moveset and abilities that are both useful in combat, and a bit less so in pure sneaking or ghosting approach.

    I'd say that, to some extent, the game sides with the Outsider when comes to your actions. It doesn't judge your behavior in honest words, using only terms like only high/low chaos (not good, bad or WTF), and the final mission is actually boring/super easy if you played a low-chaos character throughout the campaign. On the other hand, the Outsider is just delighted when you get the high-chaos ending (well, kind of obviously, as he represents chaos).

    You could say that sneaking, ghosting, thievery and general non-lethal approach was left for more mature players, who can appreciate that kind of gameplay for what it is, without obvious external rewards from the game, but it sounds pretty self-congratulatory to me. I can only speculate that devs didn't have time to provide equal incentives for both playstyles, and we all know which one makes better sales – the violent one. Also, which is even more confusing to me, a lot of non-violent solutions for those targets are much worse than the actual death...

  6. #31
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    Dishonored gives you an awesome moveset and abilities that are both useful in combat, and a bit less so in pure sneaking or ghosting approach.
    How? I don't see how porting from one place to another would be useful in combat. Rather to port behind the enemy, and "take him" in the back. Or, if you have to flee quickly, because you've been spotted. Same thing with the "Dark vision" skill, where you can see people through walls, and see their vision cones. Or the "Shadow kill" skill. Of course, there are combat skills too, but, i would say the majority is rather stealth skills. Same with the general game mechanics. You CAN play it as a action game, but, i don't see the point in doing so. Just like you CAN play Thief as an action game (after all, it gives you the sword, to do so, anyway).

  7. #32
    Nope, basically you don't need any of the skills to be stealthy. Only Blink is necessary, but mostly for vertical navigation or maybe for quicker getaway. The grenades, pistol, explosive bolts along with bend time, blink, possession, rat swarm and wind blast enable you to fight numerous foes at once and get away with it with brutal style. On YT type "dishonored impressive kills" or similar phrase to see how spectacular (and gruesome) it looks, if you haven't tried that for yourself. Also, there's a dedicated DLC mode that teaches you how to use that skillset in such way, it's called Bend-time massacre.

    It's really hard to believe that Dishonored was made with stealth in focus. It is a good implementation, I was more than happy with it, but looks more like a balancing act, or ambitious choice to satisfy smaller group of players as well, or maybe a nod to stealth games and immersive sim genre. And there's nothing wrong with that. The core audience just want to have fun causing more or less chaos, using stealth only until they get bored.

  8. #33
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    Nope, basically you don't need any of the skills to be stealthy.
    Nor do you "need" any of the combat skills, to play action style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    It's really hard to believe that Dishonored was made with stealth in focus.
    Well, whether you believe it or not is not relevant, because it was made with stealth in focus, and about any games mag article i read also considered it a stealth game. I really don't know what you're trying to achieve here. It surely isn't Call of Duty, that's for sure.

  9. #34
    Do with that what you will, not sure why you feel somehow offended by what I say. It doesn't change the fact Dishonored is a fantastic game, I literally spent 100 hours with it, both main game and the DLC. It's just the theory that Dishonored was made with stealth in mind first is too far-fetched, as the game itself hints otherwise. In similar manner, Thief wasn't made with combat in mind first (ignoring Dark Camelot for the sake of simplicity ofc).

  10. #35
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Ok, fair enough. And, sorry, i'm a bit impulsive the last days. Guess i should try to relax a little.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by chk772 View Post
    But, the stealth mechanics in Dishonored are more sophisticated than in Deus Ex, and, actually, i would have never considered playing it in Rambo-fashion, like you can do with Deus Ex, so, i would say, as a stealth game, it's rather close to Thief, than to Deus Ex really.
    The stealth mechanics are basically exactly the same as all 4 Deus Ex games, except there's no cloaking ability. Guards ability to detect you is based on line of sight and distance, with a slight modification for lighting (although in my experience, on the hardest difficulty lighting doesn't make much of a difference whatsoever). I sneak in Dishonored the same way I do in the DX games, by using elevation, cover, and distance. In Thief 1-3 it's all about darting from shadow to shadow and hiding in plain sight. In Thief 4 it's similar except guards can see you no matter what if they're close enough.

  12. #37
    What's probably worth noting, Dishonored 2 (which I didn't play much, but enough to get a first glance at its core mechanics) seem to reward non-lethal approach a bit more, at least it makes non-lethal combat possible too. E.g. you can grab people after a successful parry and knock them unconscious, you can also perform non-lethal takedowns. I don't think that makes it closer to Thief series, though.

    In a broader context it makes it closer to last Metal Gear Solid, which successfully persuades the player not to reload the autosave every time something goes wrong, but rather go with the flow, improvise, try stupid things, or, if everything else fails, retreat. I tend to be a uptight perfectionist in my sneaky playthroughs, and MGS V has taught me that I can still have a lot of fun without reloading every several minutes or so, which was refreshing

  13. #38
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2014
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    Then Eidos Montreal stepped in. A representative came into the forums and asked the community. The same overly demanding community. And yes, "Plz bring back Russel or won't play" is part of the syndrome.
    A fait accompli isn't asking.

    EM hardly won good will when they hired confirmed shills to infiltrate the forums and divide the community.

    I voted with my wallet.

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    Quote Originally Posted by TannisRoot View Post
    EM hardly won good will when they hired confirmed shills to infiltrate the forums and divide the community.

    I voted with my wallet.
    Exactly, Tannis. When I realized that had happened, I posted a few rants, got into a few arguments with the shills, then left the forums for a long while. The fact that EM seemed okay with such an underhanded move left me with a bad taste in my mouth for the game and the company; I mean, if they really thought it was going to be that good and appeal to so many different types of gamers, then why go to that kind of trouble? I paid a total of $5.00 for my copy of (Nu)Thief a few months ago and after 20+ minutes of playing it realized even that was too much to have spent on the game. I'm playing Dishonored 2 now and it's washing away the bad taste left by (Nu)Thief; I can see spending 100+ hours easily on D2, same as with the first. Dishonored is what (Nu)Thief should have been!

  15. #40
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2016
    I do love these "Dishonored is what Thief reboot should've been" claims. If Dishonored had "Thief" in its title, resulting fanbase negativity would be equal if not worse from one that met Thief 2014. Exclusion/utter marginalization of shadows/lighting as a stealth mechanic would alone cause endless rants and flame wars.

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Well, of course it's a different game. But, it was a much better stealth game for me than Thief 4 will ever be.

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Topeka, KS
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    The stealth mechanics are basically exactly the same as all 4 Deus Ex games, except there's no cloaking ability. Guards ability to detect you is based on line of sight and distance, with a slight modification for lighting (although in my experience, on the hardest difficulty lighting doesn't make much of a difference whatsoever). I sneak in Dishonored the same way I do in the DX games, by using elevation, cover, and distance. In Thief 1-3 it's all about darting from shadow to shadow and hiding in plain sight.
    I haven't played Dishonored and these comments immediately lessened my motivation. I love the shadow sneaking (and atmosphere) in classic Thief and have been looking for something like that in modern games; I have settled on Dark Mod. This quote from Wikipedia about Dishonored speaks volumes about the modern gaming industry:

    "However, it was decided that it was unrealistic that an enemy could stand directly in front of a player hiding in shadows and not detect them. It was also considered that making certain areas dark hid the designers' work and contrasted poorly with well-lit areas."

  18. #43
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Dishonored and (classic) Thief I feel are ideal models for different poles on the stealth game spectrum. I love both of them.

    I think it's true if DH had Thief in its title it'd get more flak--not too much more, fun is still fun, but probably more than it gets now--but that'd be really unfair to what Arkane is trying to do with DH. I tend to play it straight stealth as much as I can, well, in replaying levels. But I also do speedrun blink replays too. Being able to pick between those is part of DH's ethos, and it does what it aims to well, although not everyone has to agree with what they aim for.

    Incidently, I got Thief (2014) free by being a Darkmod dev, and SqEx gave us all a copy for co-hosting their modding contest. It was kind of a relief in that I didn't have to deal with the debate, am I a loyal Thief fan enough, since I've bought every other edition out of loyalty. I don't think I would have worried about that anyway, my backlog is so long it's easy to turn down new games on that basis alone. But it was kind of convenient to just have it gifted to me before it was even released.

  19. #44
    No one seems to like Thief2014. Well l loved it. I played it without automatically criticising everything. It was fun and I actually managed to get to the end. Pity Erin died and the magical bit I could have done without. The Bank Heist was too easy even for a pensioner like me. My money is as good as yours. Love the city beautifully drawn and Basso was great. Play just for fun sometimes boys.

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Basso is the ONLY good character

    The other characters are terrible.....

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by lowenz View Post
    Basso is the ONLY good character
    Really? I absolutely hated his hat. (just like i disliked most of the other artwork in the game... really didn't have much in common with the awesome classic Thief artwork)

  22. #47
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2016
    Quote Originally Posted by marycwmbach View Post
    No one seems to like Thief2014.
    Some 70% of game's user reviews on Steam are positive, so that's not at all correct.

  23. #48
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    It's the same as Unreal 2 back in the days (2003!)

    All the Unreal 2 critiques are valid for Thief 2014

  24. #49
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    Quote Originally Posted by Increasing View Post
    Some 70% of game's user reviews on Steam are positive, so that's not at all correct.
    It's all about the sales, dear. Thiaf didn't do as well as EM expected sales-wise. Steam isn't the only source for game reviews, btw. Most die-hard Taffers here at TTLG who tried the game didn't exactly give it rave reviews. I'm one of those.

  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2016
    There ain't millions of you in existence, "dear", thus your opinion isn't of much worth to average suit.
    Watch Thief's sales to be better than that of latest Deus Ex, title much better received around here, in the same time period.

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