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Thread: Sexist? Definitely, Maybe

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    I think Jyn in the Rogue One is a nice example of progress in this stuff. Yes she's played by a very attractive person (as is everyone), but she's not sexualised in-movie, i.e. her attractiveness isn't made a point of, other characters don't go 'ooh wow she's gorgeous', and there isn't a contrived reason for her to run around in her underwear at some point. She's just there to do stuff. The ghostbusters remake, for all of it's mediocrity in other areas, also did a nice job of unfussily having female characters just being people. I guess it's equivalent to Night of the Living Dead having a black protagonist without making him talk jive or dance or anything?

  2. #27
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    And there exist actual facts to prove it instead of the lazy circular arguments that you require.
    Not sure what you are getting at here. You suggesting that any observation which doesn't come with graphs is somehow laziness rather than contextual?

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirith View Post
    What people don't seem to realise (or perhaps are unable to handle) is this: you can like something, even love it, and still be critical of some of its elements. That's not betrayal, it's not hypocritical. People think that if you criticise something beloved, you're shitting on it - but how much do you actually love something if you can't accept that someone might criticise aspects of it?
    You might have a valid point if it were in any way based on fact. I'll give you mine. Contrary to what has been stated Leia did not run around in her underwear. There was one scene in a bikini where she not only held her dignity against attempted debasement but killed the one doing it. She was not saved by the men. She did it her self and promptly went back to wearing a bed sheet coverall type thing. Do you have any factual knowledge to support Star Wars as sexist? I will be happy to listen to actual fact but merely stating it was by totally missing the import of one scene does not do it. Moreover missing the import of that scene does a disservice to the very cause you think you are championing.

    Wait. Are people conflating Barbarella with Star Wars?

  4. #29
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    No one said Leia ran around in her underwear, I said Jyn didn't. Slave-girl Leia was massively male-gaze, and in that, yeah, kinda sexist. It doesn't make the whole thing sexist (it would be hard really, there's only one woman in the whole thing), but if Leia is a feminist character, it's only by the low standards of the time period.

    Besides, whatever Koyla is getting at with going on about color blind people loving rainbows, in general if you want to know if something is sexist ask a girl. Gimme a minute...

    Yeah, that bit was sexist.
    Last edited by Vivian; 5th Jan 2017 at 17:31. Reason: removed grammar/vocab dickery, soz

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    I see. If you pop a boner it's sexist. It matters not the context or that the woman is a strong wisecracking character capable of saving the men. So Alien is not sexist because, although she was in her underwear, it was in context and I did not pop a pants tent. Oh wait I didn't pop one with the slave girl scene either so I guess it's just sexist for you.

    And Star Wars had the same ratio of male to female as Harry Potter. Is Rowling sexist?

  6. #31
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    It doesn't make the whole film sexist, to repeat myself and others. The bit in alien was also pretty dodgy. Was there a bit in Harry Potter where the camera slides over Hermione's mostly naked body? If so, was there an equivalent treatment of the male cast?

    Also dude you just did a really textbook strawman, nice one. Was that intentional?

    Basically, ignoring your boners for a second, this is my actual thesis: If you want to do this to your principle (only) female cast member and not be sexist:



    You should also do this:



    Otherwise you are not presenting your male and female characters in equivalent ways.
    Last edited by Vivian; 6th Jan 2017 at 05:25.

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: the Sheeple Pen
    There you go.


  8. #33
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Draggy the Dragons house
    always with the man-nappies

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Right. Alien was dodgy. They were all (men too) in their underwear at the beginning because of cryo-sleep. She was preparing for it at the end. You (Vivian) absolutely do not take into account context. You knee jerk. Your friends knee jerk. You want stories to be altered. You want everything measured with an eye dropper to make sure nobody is offended by a portion of a body not even considered to be the sexual bits. What a pathetic weenie generation where people look for something to be offended by. I don't know how you enjoy anything at all with all the searching for things to be offended by. Oh heavens they showed this centimeter of skin for the woman we must measure the centimeters for the men. Pathetic.

    And meanwhile you miss the import of the scene. You miss what it is saying. That is the true sorrow.
    Last edited by Tocky; 6th Jan 2017 at 09:54. Reason: sorrow

  10. #35
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    God, whatever fantasy world that all came from sucks dude. Lighten up.

    Seeing as we're making up what each other do, you really need to stop huffing paint in your mums giant vagina, it's making you grouchy.

    Anyways, I'm not any of that bullshit you just spouted. I'm not even much younger than you, I suspect. Just because I've pointed out what I think are a few problematic sections of something you enjoy doesn't mean you have to ramble on about 'ooh this generation' instead of actually thinking about it for a bit. But then thinking about stuff through the fume-haze IS hard, I guess.
    Last edited by Vivian; 6th Jan 2017 at 10:05.

  11. #36
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    Nah, I think Tocky is more correct than you are, here. Context is important, and I agree with him that you seem to be ignoring it when casting judgment on these films. (The Harry Potter one I can't speak to, didn't watch them beyond the second film.) Tocky may have gone to extremes representing your position at the end there, but I think the core of it is accurate.

    Your thesis doesn't, and shouldn't, apply in all cases.

  12. #37
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    It can make sense and be empowering on one level while still being absolute male-gaze fodder on another, same as with that scene in Alien. Things usually have more than one dimension.

    And Tocky's strawmanning of Vivian and his opinion is just sad, really.

  13. #38
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Tocky, you are trying too hard. If it were simply a matter of Ripley getting into the cryo sleep pod to end the film, you would have a point. But the underwear scene at the end of Alien was completely gratuitous young male boner bait. Link below if you need to refresh your memory.



    That said, I do not agree with Viv that movies should aim for equality of skin to meet somebody's idea of political correctness. There's nothing wrong with making a flick for a predominantly male audience and including some titillation to sell it, e.g. Alien or Porky's. And there's nothing wrong with making a flick for a predominantly female audience and including some titillation to sell it, e.g. Magic Mike or 50 Shades. Granted there is a lot more of the former than the latter, but that is a function of what sells to men vs. women. Marketing sex appeal is not sexism. Sexism is stereotyping, prejudice, and discrimination.

    Now, what I don't want to see is titillation in a movie marketed to kids. And that's where RotJ pushes the limit a bit. While it's true that Leia is a strong female character, there is no good reason for exposing kids to scenes suggesting sex slavery or bondage.

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Hang on, you can't just go 'like Alien or Porky's', like they're anywhere near the same bracket. What?

    Look, there's a lot of either miscommunication or misrepresentation going on here. If you are presenting what you intend to be a credible female lead character in a film that is supposed to have universal appeal (I can and will argue that Alien deffo fits into that category), and you then either dress them in a weird novelty sex outfit or have a reason for them to be skimpily dressed while the camera pretty much flies up their bum, then it seems fairer that you also do that to the male characters. Otherwise you are making a film thats for guys to get aroused to, which I guess is a similar way of saying what I'm trying to say, i.e. that it will probably make straight women a bit uncomfortable. If you don't admit that's what you're doing, and just say this is a totally normal representation of a normal female character, just that 'normal' means really hot and leaning into the camera at all the right angles, then you're straying into sexism. That's my point. Well, it's not as much my point, as it's my understanding of why those bits make my girlfriend think the film we're watching can't be taken seriously anymore. You can call that 'political correctness' if you want, but fuck knows why. Neither of us are politicians.

    Going back to Rogue One, and the 'context is all' thing, there is a bit where Jyn definitely takes off at least some of her clothes, because she changes clothes. There is context there for showing us her in her pants. Do you think doing that would really add much, to her character or to the film?
    Last edited by Vivian; 6th Jan 2017 at 12:08.

  15. #40
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivian View Post
    God, whatever fantasy world that all came from sucks dude. Lighten up.

    Seeing as we're making up what each other do, you really need to stop huffing paint in your mums giant vagina, it's making you grouchy.

    Anyways, I'm not any of that bullshit you just spouted. I'm not even much younger than you, I suspect. Just because I've pointed out what I think are a few problematic sections of something you enjoy doesn't mean you have to ramble on about 'ooh this generation' instead of actually thinking about it for a bit. But then thinking about stuff through the fume-haze IS hard, I guess.
    I will address others actual arguments when I get time (at work now) but I just want to point out (since you haven't the wit to realize it) that by using the "your mum" juvenile jab you not only expose your lack of character and decency but your lack of argument. I let you know that I'm sensitive because my mom may soon die and you sharpen that knowledge into a dagger to use on me. I'm not painting the kitchen now so this isn't an off the hip response any longer. My reaction to your bizarre childish injection into political discussion was spot on the first time I now see.

    For some reason you cannot understand that I have thought of what you pointed out and rejected it as over reactionary. I have also pointed out how a woman breaking free of slave or sexual bondage and saving herself is very feminist which you reject as only by low standards. We will never come together on this because you are now seeking emotional triggers to derail me and though you fail it does let me know what sort of person you are and frankly it is disgusting to a point I no longer wish to converse with you. How you managed to even get a girlfriend has become something of a wonder to me. Low standards I assume. Thank heaven I raised my daughter to not only recognize actual sexism but the sort who resorts to low blows.

    I am harsh but I am honest. I think the over reaction to a bit of skin anyone can see on the beach is pathetic.

  16. #41
    Slightly less tormented Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    I was thinking about the 'if females are exposed then men should be similarly exposed' argument and wondered what you guys thought of this?

    'First man hired as face of beauty brand Maybelline'.

    Manny Gutierrez is the first male face of make-up brand Maybelline, starring in an advert for their new mascara.

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    I will address others actual arguments when I get time (at work now) but I just want to point out (since you haven't the wit to realize it) that by using the "your mum" juvenile jab you not only expose your lack of character and decency but your lack of argument. I let you know that I'm sensitive because my mom may soon die and you sharpen that knowledge into a dagger to use on me. I'm not painting the kitchen now so this isn't an off the hip response any longer. My reaction to your bizarre childish injection into political discussion was spot on the first time I now see.

    For some reason you cannot understand that I have thought of what you pointed out and rejected it as over reactionary. I have also pointed out how a woman breaking free of slave or sexual bondage and saving herself is very feminist which you reject as only by low standards. We will never come together on this because you are now seeking emotional triggers to derail me and though you fail it does let me know what sort of person you are and frankly it is disgusting to a point I no longer wish to converse with you. How you managed to even get a girlfriend has become something of a wonder to me. Low standards I assume. Thank heaven I raised my daughter to not only recognize actual sexism but the sort who resorts to low blows.

    I am harsh but I am honest. I think the over reaction to a bit of skin anyone can see on the beach is pathetic.
    I don't think we will ever get on, no. You're a bit weird. And you make everything SUPER personal, fucking hell. What's your issue? Yeah, I am taking the piss out of you a bit. You went all internet tough guy on me and then tried to blame it on paint fumes, you've got to give me a bit of latitude with that, surely.

    NB I have a girlfriend because I am good looking and cool, basically. And generally regarded as a nice man. Wonder no more.
    Last edited by Vivian; 6th Jan 2017 at 15:58.

  18. #43
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    I was thinking about the 'if females are exposed then men should be similarly exposed' argument and wondered what you guys thought of this?
    The first thing that popped into my head after reading that was "...manscara?"

  19. #44
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivian View Post
    NB I have a girlfriend because I am good looking and cool, basically. And generally regarded as a nice man. Wonder no more.
    Have you ever thought that women could just be using you for your dinosaur science?

  20. #45
    Slightly less tormented Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    The first thing that popped into my head after reading that was "...manscara?"
    Eeh, yer so sharp yer could cut yersel' with a knife (or something like that). (Said with a Geordie accent which is the best accent in the world).

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivian View Post
    I don't think we will ever get on, no. You're a bit weird. And you make everything SUPER personal, fucking hell. What's your issue? Yeah, I am taking the piss out of you a bit. You went all internet tough guy on me and then tried to blame it on paint fumes, you've got to give me a bit of latitude with that, surely.

    NB I have a girlfriend because I am good looking and cool, basically. And generally regarded as a nice man. Wonder no more.
    Seriously? You tell me I need to stop huffing paint fumes in my moms vagina and I'M the one who makes things super personal? Can you hear yourself? You demean my intelligence with the paint fumes comment not once but twice and I'M the one making things super personal? You keep bringing up something from another thread where YOU acted weird and I gave you an out by blaming my reaction on paint fumes and being drunk. Live and let live means nothing when somebody disagrees with you apparently. Oh absolutely you would not say the things you say if not for being behind a computer screen. Am I wrong? Do you say these things face to face with folks you hardly know? What do you suppose would happen if you did?

    Yeah, you are a nice guy. You forget people can read what you wrote and it does not speak of nice guy. A nice guy does not continue to pick at someone over their mom when he has told you she may die this year and that is the reason he is sensitive over that issue.

    Weird I own. Weird I enjoy.
    Last edited by Tocky; 6th Jan 2017 at 21:35. Reason: Oops the huffing paint insult was three times. Oops again 4.

  22. #47
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    Eeh, yer so sharp yer could cut yersel' with a knife (or something like that). (Said with a Geordie accent which is the best accent in the world).
    One of the hardest to understand, at least from a US perspective. The other one is, of course, Glaswegian.

    I'm almost definite this guy is screwing with the host.


  23. #48
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirith View Post
    It can make sense and be empowering on one level while still being absolute male-gaze fodder on another, same as with that scene in Alien. Things usually have more than one dimension.

    And Tocky's strawmanning of Vivian and his opinion is just sad, really.
    Strawmanning? Where? He mentioned the ratio of men to women on Star wars so I mentioned the ratio on Harry Potter. How is that strawmanning? If the ratio is important on one then it is on the other. Where did I strawman? Come up with something besides baseless accusation and I might agree with you and not think you are the one who is sad.

  24. #49
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Men's mascara sounds like what goths and their descendants have done since the 80s and Maybelline is a Jenny-come-lately to the scene. But I don't even know what the current incarnation of goth is, if there even is one. Emo is already a decade ago. I guess now it's just that intersex look is in vogue, and there's a whole movement where "recognition" gets rewarded, which is another topic, but I distrust it actually helping the cause of tolerance. I mean in the long run. This news itself seems fine, even quaint.

    Re: my general thoughts... Now that I've been working in human rights for a while, where we focus on serious things like domestic violence, the cultural side doesn't really move me. There's a general culture of dismissing women still around that a lot of it points to. So I'd rather go straight to the culture than the artifacts, which I see in terms of inspiring people to take the higher road. But some people don't want to hear it and think criticism is pretentious and arrogant PC or something. More lecturing is only going to get them to double down on their attitude. I wouldn't want to get dragged down trying to dispute the obvious with them so would just say my piece and live and let live, if they're not committing any crime.

  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Tocky, you are trying too hard. If it were simply a matter of Ripley getting into the cryo sleep pod to end the film, you would have a point. But the underwear scene at the end of Alien was completely gratuitous young male boner bait. Link below if you need to refresh your memory.




    Now, what I don't want to see is titillation in a movie marketed to kids. And that's where RotJ pushes the limit a bit. While it's true that Leia is a strong female character, there is no good reason for exposing kids to scenes suggesting sex slavery or bondage.
    Hmmm. I see now that the camera was relentless in it's pursuit of her and perhaps some of it could have been cut but as it is it works and here is why: it is important to show her going about the normal routine of prep for cryo and to draw out the scene of normalcy so the creature appearance is a surprise. The dwelling on her full body could be argued and honestly I was so intent on the creature (or possibly I'm just not very attracted to Sigorney) that I did not pay that much attention. I can see how that was a bit of titillation for some, particularly the step into the space suit, for the young and inexperienced.

    As for ROTJ exposing kids to sex slavery or bondage I have to say pish. Kids did not attach adult concepts to the scene. They have yet to develop such concepts. They saw her in chains and Jabba gloating and that's about it.

    As for trying too hard, hell I'm shooting off the cuff what I think is all. It ain't trying at all.

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