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Thread: Sexist? Definitely, Maybe

  1. #51
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    Just want to remind everyone that Alien is an overtly sexual film, so this particular scene is done on purpose and 100% in tone.

  2. #52
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: Sulphur, whatever
    I was wondering when someone would bring that up. It is, in the end, a film about violation.

  3. #53
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Yes but violation of everyone. The question is the end scene just eye candy for men? I see what you mean about impending penetration being a fear inherent in the plot and the disrobing being prelude though.

  4. #54
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: Sulphur, whatever
    Honestly, it'd be sexist if it were a flimsy excuse for a bit of skin, but the movie's clearly setting up the tone for what comes next, which you can't ignore. Did the camera really need to get that close in to show Ripley in her underwear? Not really - alarmists may have some cause for concern if that were all the scene was for. I read that scene intuitively, however, as Ripley feeling safe enough to decompress and disrobe, while the POV of the camera is inherently setting up a feeling of unease. I did not pop a boner during that part, because this was a horror movie, and it was deeply unsexy to me given what had come before.

    In the end, sexism is a thing, and definitely needs to be addressed in movies where it serves no purpose beyond titillating men. Alien is not a film you should be pointing a finger at for the one moment it plays with your expectations of its protagonist being in a safe space; there are far worse movies that deserve that.

  5. #55
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: Sulphur, whatever
    What we actually need, though, is a woman's viewpoint on all of this. I guess it's okay for a bunch of men to toss opinions back and forth about roughly half of the human race, but it'd be nice if the other half weighs in on a topic that is mostly about them.

  6. #56
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    True dat.

    Alien (which I didn't bring up, incidentally, that was part of tockys meltdown) is definitely a minor thing, I always just thought the tone was a little off, and presumed that a bit of gawping was some b-movie obligation the makers thought they should fulfill. It was noticeably not repeated (for any character) in Aliens.

    The dude in Jurassic World tho, that was pretty actually bad.
    Last edited by Vivian; 7th Jan 2017 at 04:42.

  7. #57
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Draggy the Dragons house
    ttlg is pretty much a boys club these days though, so....

  8. #58
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    I was thinking about the 'if females are exposed then men should be similarly exposed' argument and wondered what you guys thought of this?
    My first thought is "so what about it?"

    On second thought, heavy makeup on women is somewhat out of fashion these days, eye shadow and mascara in particular. Now that being a glam guy, fem boy, or trans in public is socially acceptable (at least in most major metropolitan areas) it's not terribly surprising to see the marketing shift that way.

  9. #59
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    Strawmanning? Where? He mentioned the ratio of men to women on Star wars so I mentioned the ratio on Harry Potter. How is that strawmanning? If the ratio is important on one then it is on the other. Where did I strawman? Come up with something besides baseless accusation and I might agree with you and not think you are the one who is sad.
    You want stories to be altered. You want everything measured with an eye dropper to make sure nobody is offended by a portion of a body not even considered to be the sexual bits. What a pathetic weenie generation where people look for something to be offended by. I don't know how you enjoy anything at all with all the searching for things to be offended by.
    All of this is strawmanning, pure and simple. Vivian criticised, he never said a) he was offended, b) any depiction of bodies was offensive, c) he wanted stories to be altered. Then there's your silly, reductive bit about boners.

    It's absolutely fair to disagree with Vivian's argument, but from the first you've been misunderstanding and misrepresenting. It's not Vivian's position that's counter to actual discussiion, it's yours, which reads all criticism as offense and as attempts to censor. That's basically libertarian for "Nah nah nah, I can't hear you, I've got my fingers stuck in my ears!" You have some points with respect to context, but even those are limited, mainly because something can be justified on one level (say, plot) and still iffy on another (you can easily make a woman empowered and still have the camera leering all over her) - and regardless of this, saying that something is iffy != saying that it should be prohibited or censored or "Will no one think of the children?!"

  10. #60
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    The biggest load of bs itt is this dumb suggestion that you need a woman's opinion on it, like male brains are just unable to recognise sexism.

  11. #61
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Exactly, SJ. And after a lifetime spent avoiding them, middle age is the worst time to get cooties.

  12. #62
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    It's more that women are more likely to notice it, I guess?

  13. #63
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirith View Post
    All of this is strawmanning, pure and simple. Vivian criticised, he never said a) he was offended, b) any depiction of bodies was offensive, c) he wanted stories to be altered. Then there's your silly, reductive bit about boners.

    It's absolutely fair to disagree with Vivian's argument, but from the first you've been misunderstanding and misrepresenting. It's not Vivian's position that's counter to actual discussiion, it's yours, which reads all criticism as offense and as attempts to censor. That's basically libertarian for "Nah nah nah, I can't hear you, I've got my fingers stuck in my ears!" You have some points with respect to context, but even those are limited, mainly because something can be justified on one level (say, plot) and still iffy on another (you can easily make a woman empowered and still have the camera leering all over her) - and regardless of this, saying that something is iffy != saying that it should be prohibited or censored or "Will no one think of the children?!"
    First off you are correct about the boner thing being reductive. It was meant to be. It goes through all the surrounding meat to the bone. It shakes away the chaff and gets to what we are really talking about. Second I am bombastic certainly. I enjoy being so. I'm sorry you have a problem parsing that and take things I say in the most pejorative sense because it makes you miss my points.

    What I said to Vivian I did not pull out of thin air. Sexism- true sexism- is an offense and should be to both men and women. To claim something is sexist is to automatically take up the banner of offense. Sexism IS an offense. Vivian began by claiming it. I disagreed. Too vehemently for him or you apparently as it brought personal attacks not related to the topic. He still goads me by calling my words a meltdown. It's nice you two are friends but both he and you have a blind spot when it comes to his arguments.

    He was saying that the ratio of skin exposure should be the same. How can you miss that? He even reiterated it in a subsequent post. That is not a straw man. If you cut into a story (a censorship) to make sure this much skin is reciprocated for that much then there is the very real possibility it will damage the story which should be paramount and a good example is Alien as evidenced by the above discussion. Perhaps (and I'm throwing you a bone here) I could have directed my rant (not a meltdown) even more at the over swing of society's pendulum but he certainly seemed to be taking up the banner of that as well. I was not the one who claimed a bikini in Star Wars was sexist and missed the point of the scene. I was the one who brought that up. EDIT- actually Kolya brought it up and I expanded on it.

    As for the libertarian comment and will no one think of the children, that's obvious rubbish and I think you know it. If it isn't to you then it certainly will be to others and you should consider that. Now why don't we stick to actual discussion instead of YOUR strawman? Too much discussion has been paid to personal back and forth.
    Last edited by Tocky; 7th Jan 2017 at 12:50.

  14. #64
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    The biggest load of bs itt is this dumb suggestion that you need a woman's opinion on it, like male brains are just unable to recognise sexism.
    Who said that?

  15. #65
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    I think I said if in doubt, ask a girl. Seems sensible?

  16. #66
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    First off you are correct about the boner thing being reductive. It was meant to be. It goes through all the surrounding meat to the bone. It shakes away the chaff and gets to what we are really talking about.
    As I said: strawmanning. You're saying that Vivian isn't saying what he says, he's actually saying something else. You're putting words in his mouth in order to attack them. That's pretty much textbook strawman. Since you then go on to say that Vivian and me are friends, when it's actually a matter of us agreeing (I don't know why you'd consider us friends, since I've not had more or less interaction with him than with most other people on the boards), I don't think you are interested in having a discussion in good faith. Which means that I have better things to waste my time on.

  17. #67
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Girl with the Patreon Tattoo
    I think there should be more movies with scenes that serve no purpose beyond titillating women.

  18. #68
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    We can be friends if you like, Thirith.

  19. #69
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Shush, you.
    *puts a finger on Vivian's lips*
    *knees him in the groin*
    *walks away in bizarre bronze bikini combo*

  20. #70
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: Sulphur, whatever
    You're welcome to your opinion on how women are portrayed, Subj, but if you feel that inviting women to talk about a topic that relates to them is fundamentally about men not being able to 'recognise' sexism, maybe take a moment to think before posting.

  21. #71
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    The biggest load of bs itt is this dumb suggestion that you need a woman's opinion on it, like male brains are just unable to recognise sexism.
    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    Who said that?
    Heck, I'll say it. It's not "like male brains are just unable", it's like "human brains can be biased". It's not that you can't possibly get the whole story by only hearing one side, it's just less likely.

  22. #72
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirith View Post
    As I said: strawmanning. You're saying that Vivian isn't saying what he says, he's actually saying something else. You're putting words in his mouth in order to attack them. That's pretty much textbook strawman. Since you then go on to say that Vivian and me are friends, when it's actually a matter of us agreeing (I don't know why you'd consider us friends, since I've not had more or less interaction with him than with most other people on the boards), I don't think you are interested in having a discussion in good faith. Which means that I have better things to waste my time on.
    This response makes no sense on it's face. I've explained in detail how I made no strawman. It just seems that since you ignore everything I say and take a side which has and continues to use personal attacks such as "meltdown" you must be friends. That is the only thing which makes sense. My reductive was only to the point of reducing to the essence and a little absurdness as humor. That is not what a strawman is.

    And I have not said he is saying something he hasn't said. I never said HE said the boner thing. I said it. YOU are not having a discussion in good faith if you ignore my response. STATE a strawman. I will show you where you are wrong. I already have but you ignore it to concentrate on my boner.
    Last edited by Tocky; 7th Jan 2017 at 15:12.

  23. #73
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Bronze Bikini Combo is the name of my all-male riot grrrrl ally band.

  24. #74
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    I think you're all doing fine without my input, at least. I always find you guys encouraging when I'm most despairing with the world. In the old days, men would say 'Sexism? What's that?'

    For the record, I had different feelings about the Ripley clip and the Leia image. The first made me uncomfortable in a couple of places (though I don't remember feeling that when I first saw the film), the 2nd made me cross (though I also don't remember feeling that when I first saw the film). My 'enlightenment' came after both films had been released. It's likely that seeing adverts for 'Princess Leia sexy slave costume' is what pisses me off. For Ripley there is only discussion relating to the film.

    Things hit me on an intellectual level or a visceral level. I couldn't define what does what. IMO, it's all a whole heap better than I grew up with.

    Edit. About the Maybelline advert. I only threw that in there because I've noticed that occasionally, when threads are split, conversation dries up so just wanted to post something else to talk about in case the original posters stopped posting. As it happens, I've been quite pleased to read that there are one or two 'celebrities' who seem to have decided to stop wearing make up. I hope it's an increasing trend for women. But I was interested in the replies so thank you for that. As for the advert, I didn't see it as goth or anime or anything other than 'feminine' make-up on a man.

  25. #75
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivian View Post
    I think I said if in doubt, ask a girl. Seems sensible?
    I think it makes a lot more sense than assuming men have a 1:1 awareness versus women on sexism. I can't speak for anyone else, but I lose track of the number of things which I've only realised were sexist after my attention was drawn to it. Else it's easy enough to coast through life assuming that everything is just dandy.

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