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Thread: Sexist? Definitely, Maybe

  1. #126
    OK, this bikini thing is really blown WAY out of proportion, I remember it being more of a "thing" in the last 20 years as opposed to when the movie originally came out. As a big SW fan, it's way more of just an amusing sidenote than actually defining what I thought of the character of Leia. When I consider Leia's best moments in the trilogy, I think more of her confrontations with Tarkin and Vader in ANH, or her snappy dialogue with Han near the beginning of Empire, or her distrust of Lando in Jedi. The bikini scene is like, nothing.

    So take that, pervs.

  2. #127
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Ok, wrote some of lethal weapon 3. It also says she was one of the top script doctors in hollywood for most of the 2000's.

    Brethren, as a big SW fan you might not be the best barometer of the general public. Not in a negative way, but it means you will have spent way more time thinking about it than the average person.

  3. #128
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Fingernail View Post
    Then what's to stop the tyranny of the majority? I think you're crediting "asshats from minority groups" with entirely too much power here. As I say, being labelled as prejudiced by a few commentators (probably within an already self-selectively liberal bubble) doesn't seem to have harmed Richard Hammond's position at all. None of the controversies could stop Trump. Where was the weapon when we needed it?
    The weapon was squandered.

    It used to be that calling someone a racist was a somewhat serious accusation. If somebody called you a racist, you would take it as an insult to your character and it would be cause for some introspection. And doing it publicly could shame someone. But nowadays it gets thrown around so frequently and often indiscriminately that it has lost most of its sting. The terms xenophobe and misogynist have been watered down as well over the last couple of years. Homophobe may be next.

    The problem is that these terms have been increasingly politicized. In this last US election cycle, certain groups of Democratic pols, voters, and supporters took the attitude that if you don't agree with me politically, I'm going to throw insults at you, whether or not they're deserved. It used to be just the Al Sharpton's of the world doing this. In recent years it has become widespread. Outside of political arguments, it's also happening a lot on college and university campuses and in some social circles. So when there is legitimate criticism to be made, people now have an excuse to ignore it, because they can dismiss it as just SJWs doing their thing.

  4. #129
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivian View Post
    I think that was my original point? She has done quite a range of things and been very successful in most of them, but to most people she will just be Leia, and the image that comes up for Leia is usually the bikini.
    What I disagreed with was that this was somehow "emblematic of everything that was wrong in the 70's and continues to be wrong today." We had and have more serious problems than the fact that men adore a dosed starlet for wearing a bikini in a scifi-swashbuckler in the 70s. Men like to look at scantily clad young women, this is never going to change. The attitude towards and success of actual feminist issues however has improved a lot during and since the 70s. Ignoring that and eternally painting women as victims of a patriarchal society, whether it is actually the case or not, just because it is seems a useful concept to push an agenda, is doing no one a favour. There are cases where it is justified but I don't think this is one of them.

  5. #130
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    In recent years it has become widespread.
    I think you're overstating it. The right-wing propaganda machines amplify whatever dregs of nonsense they can dig up from random dark corners of the web, and/or take things out of context, and/or just make stuff up. And they'd do that regardless of whether certain accusations are just or not. But it's really noticeable that when the right wants to find something ridiculous to make fun of, they usually have to dig up some anonymous troll or falsify a quote, whereas all the left has to do to find something ridiculous is check the president-elect's recent twitter feed.

  6. #131
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    Take your time. But the question was what most people could name of the top of their heads.
    The Burbs, in which she is (imho) far hotter than she ever was in Star Wars. Ditto for The Man With One Red Shoe. She was in When Harry Met Sally. And she had a minor but amusing role in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

    And those really were off the top of my head.

    Punch yourself in the nuts now?

  7. #132
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    The weapon was squandered.

    The problem is that these terms have been increasingly politicized.
    No, they'be become watered down by over use.

    It's another issue with SJWs reacting to everything. If everything is offensive then nothing is.

  8. #133
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    I'm with faetal, though. I see way more people complaining about SJWs being offended at everything than I see actual SJWs being offended - and this thread is a case in point, IMO. Vivian criticised something, but that's not the same as being offended. I find that so many of the people who talk about butthurt SJWs shy away from so much discussion, immediately presenting any criticism as undue offense, and that's childish bullshit. If the SJW side of this (and I'd consider myself on that side) acts hysterically, I see little evidence that the other side is acting any less hysterically.

  9. #134
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    The Burbs, in which she is (imho) far hotter than she ever was in Star Wars. Ditto for The Man With One Red Shoe.
    Punch yourself in the nuts now?
    Hahaha, you really think you somehow beat me to an invisible price by remembering Fisher from a film in which you found her hotter than in Star Wars? Did you even read the thread you schlemiel?

  10. #135
    Not to mention that all the roles he listed were just background or supporting characters. It would be hard to argue that if not for Star Wars, most people probably wouldn't even know who she is.

  11. #136
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    The first image I get is white robe and buns, but that's probably because the first SW film had such an impact on me.

  12. #137
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    The white robe and hair buns is the iconic image of Princess Leia Organa.

  13. #138
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Her Hoth snowsuit would probably come in second. She was at her most ass kicking there, while previously she had looked more like a distressed Greek statue.

  14. #139
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    Hahaha, you really think you somehow beat me to an invisible price by remembering Fisher from a film in which you found her hotter than in Star Wars? Did you even read the thread you schlemiel?
    I remembered four other films she was in, off the top of my head. Me finding her attractive in The Burbs is neither here nor there, but of course that's what you focus on.

    You said "people will be hard pressed to name other films she was involved in" and you were wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    Not to mention that all the roles he listed were just background or supporting characters.
    What's that got to do with it you absolute womble? Koyla said "people will be hard pressed to name other films she was involved in". What has the nature of the roles, exactly, got to do with it?

  15. #140
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    I said most people, Unterjeff.

    Oh well, that was enough sucking-the-fun-out-of-a-good-thing. Next time we should discuss paedophilia in David Hamilton's photography, racism in the Tom & Jerry cartoons and the image of slavery in The Rolling Stones "Brown Sugar".



  16. #141
    What's a womble anyway? Is it a British thing?

  17. #142
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    They're sort of possum things that live on Wimbledon common and collect rubbish.

  18. #143
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Draggy the Dragons house
    Wombles of Wimbledon, ah memories

  19. #144
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    Take your time. But the question was what most people could name of the top of their heads.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    I said most people, Unterjeff.
    So you were baiting Vivian with your "take your time" but can't cope when someone can name other films she's been in off the top of their heads?

    When you say "most people" that doesn't mean you and Vivian, or even most of TTLG membership. Loads of people can name other things she was in. It depends on how old you are of course. If you're under 30 you probably only know her for Star Wars because the franchise is still going. But loads of people will remember her from other films.

    I mean, who hasn't seen The Blues Brothers (which momentarily slipped my mind)?

    Come on.

  20. #145
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    I think you're overstating it. The right-wing propaganda machines amplify whatever dregs of nonsense they can dig up from random dark corners of the web, and/or take things out of context, and/or just make stuff up. And they'd do that regardless of whether certain accusations are just or not. But it's really noticeable that when the right wants to find something ridiculous to make fun of, they usually have to dig up some anonymous troll or falsify a quote, whereas all the left has to do to find something ridiculous is check the president-elect's recent twitter feed.
    I donít really know what the right wing propaganda machines are doing.

    Iím mostly observing it in social circles, from some of my friends and coworkers, at kids birthday parties, etc. And from left wing bloggers. And it tends to run through the comments sections of Democrat-leaning media sites. Iím also hearing a lot in the local news. In the Boston/New England area weíve had a string of controversies and protests in secondary schools, colleges, and universities where the -ism card gets way overplayed and some good administrators and student leaders who arenít any kind of bigot get trashed with charged language on social media and in the community, because of some administrative or disciplinary decision that some whiny student didnít like. Weíve also had local political scandals involving black and latino politicians, where the pol and his or her supporters use race baiting to divert attention from their scandal, stir up the community, or discredit a prosecutor or ethics office. Thereís been a rise in accusations of racism by black public sector employees (cops, firefighters, etc.) who are sore they didnít get a promotion, although some of those accusations do have merit so you canít dismiss everything. Itís just getting harder to take every accusation of racism as seriously as we used to when the charge is thrown around so cheaply.

    This year was especially bad because of the election. It really got under my skin right after the election when the left media tried to pin the white supremacist label on Trump and Bannon and anyone associated with the ďalt-rightĒ or right populism, as well as trying to attribute a lot of his populist appeal to what they assumed was white supremacist sentiment among voters. Even the mainstream media picked it up and ran with it for a few weeks. To me, that crossed a line into being dangerous, because by associating Trump and his administration with white supremacists, it legitimizes the real white supremacists. We had people like David Duke and Jared Taylor getting some air time as if they were part of a mainstream political movement.

  21. #146
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Europops
    Yeah, Trump got in because of stupidity but that doesn't make him a white supremacist even though both he and they seem to be on team dumb.

    We've made a lot of great steps in recognising and condemning prejudice in recent years. It's a shame to have the impact diluted.

  22. #147
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Personally I think that political correctness is a tool meant to keep dumb people in check, but it's a two sided sword because it cuts into our own freedom as well. And that becomes most visible when it is directed at the arts.
    Once we cleared them of everything dubious and indecent there won't be much left, as overstepping lines is what good art should do.
    Was it dubious to allude to sexual slavery in a scifi adventure movie? Of course! But it was also awesome because it went completely over the kids heads and provided parents gratification.
    Was it sexist? Maybe. But sometimes a bit of sexism is fun when it isn't actually hurting anyone, like any taboo is fascinating. By slamming every harmless instance of it with the sledge hammer of political correctness you're not beating it, you're just making it stronger, because evil is in all of us.

  23. #148
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Well, 'it isn't actually hurting anyone' is the rub there, isn't it. It isn't hurting you or me, deffo. It might make some people feel a bit undervalued if they don't look hot in a bikini (which isn't a problem I have with this figure, obvs) or a bit annoyed if they don't want that to be part of what makes them valuable.
    Last edited by Vivian; 11th Jan 2017 at 06:30. Reason: grammar

  24. #149
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Yes, some people may feel undervalued. But that is at least partly a personal problem, since there are lots of ways to get your self worth besides being considered sexually attractive by everyone. Ask some old people. Or some fun people.
    Calling a bit of gratuitous nudity unacceptable won't make the people who like nudity value your personality. You'll just be considered fat AND a killjoy.
    There are worrying trends in advertisement and fashion to unhealthily thin bodies but it's not easy to point out a scapegoat because that image is largely created by female competition. Most men don't even like it.
    Fat bottomed girls make the rocking world go round because they're twice as fun. Not because they whine about skinny girls in the movies.

  25. #150
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Calling it 'whining' isn't going to help though, is it. That's just suggesting they should fuck off and stop being upset. No progress will be made in any avenue with that attitude.

    (NB I am aware we are very much operating on the theoretical views of theoretical people here...)

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